Hello,

I had a notion for making up characters a month or two ago, and only mentioned it to a couple of people. Both of them instantly utilized it, so I figure it must work well. But I'm busy with other projects and haven't yet thought about how to wrap a game around it, or to make a game with holes for its pegs.

I figured I'd post it for comment and availability.

Remember yourself when you were fifteen. Picture going to school, the people you hung out with, the teachers, and the various rituals of getting home from school.

Revise your memory of your fifteen-year-old self by reversing his or her sexual orientation. Full about-face.

Now identify the individual whom that fictional version of yourself would have had the most intense, heartbreaking, impossible crush on.

OK, take that person and fictionalize him or her, adding ten or twenty years. Say what they're doing and what it's like. That's your character.

According to the folks I've mentioned it to, this is absolutely effortless and brings up a number of interesting, role-playable possibilities. Remember, I haven't yet decided what to do with it next - "give him or her super-powers" might be the next step, for all I know.

Try it! I dunno, use it for your next Call of Cthulhu character, whatever.

Best, Ron

Ron wrote:
Revise your memory of your fifteen-year-old self by reversing his or her sexual orientation. Full about-face.

Now identify the individual whom that fictional version of yourself would have had the most intense, heartbreaking, impossible crush on.

David wrote:

Hmm.... These were the sticking points for me. I thought I did fairly well at imagining a female David at 15. Had the concept (sort of) and pondered it... then I had to imagine who I'd have a crush on, and it all went south. Let's see... 15, a junior in high school, heavily into gaming, but starting to bloom more socially (with the "burner crowd")... I dunno, some punker guy? Nah. Another gamer guy--weird. Nah.

I started imagining other girls... so my "future" would be lesbian, I guess?

How were those friends of yours who found it successful able to get past the whole sexual orientation thing (a bigger part of gender than mere sex characteristics, IMO)?

David

Geez, the best way to make gamer folks get really tangled up about hard-core economic theory is to ask them to make change ... We always make things so much more difficult than they really are.

Ian is correct. I am not saying "boy into girl," but "straight into gay" or vice versa.

And bisexual is not problematic at all - just switch to non-bisexual of whatever sort.

Best, Ron

Whoops. I did mis-read... made worse by also redirecting the question into orientation... which was the whole point to begin with. DUH!

With that in mind... Nope. Can't do it; such imagining is (for me) functionally no different from imagining femaleness, as I am hetero. I'd get closer to an image if I just imagined who I'd felt impressed by or who were my fictional or real-world heroes—a common technique, I am sure. But imagining myself as hot for some particular guy (worse, a contemporary peer!) is stretching it.

But sure, I expect that, if I could so imagine, I would pick a love interest with appealing characteristics who should, in turn, make for an enjoyable character to play.

I didn't intend to be argumentative; just trying to think it through 'out-loud' (while, yes, mis-reading; sorry). No "hard-core" here, I promise. Perhaps you didn't expect any posts which would make an attempt or which would comment on its difficulty?

David

Ron,

So let me see if I have this straight.  15 year old me, crush on who I would have had a crush on.  Take that crush and add 10, 15 years to make my character?  I think I did this when I was 15.  Taking my friends and making TMNT characters with them.

Ron wrote: Now identify the individual whom that fictional version of yourself would have had the most intense, heartbreaking, impossible crush on. OK, take that person and fictionalize him or her, adding ten or twenty years.

Ron wrote:
And bisexual is not problematic at all - just switch to non-bisexual of whatever sort.

Jesus eating beans. You guys are insane.

OK, here - I remember myself at fifteen.

Now I make myself, back then, gay.

Now I say "who would have been my big heartbreaker crush under those circumstances?"

Ah! Kirk Briggs.

Now I take him (whom I've never seen nor heard from since) and imagine him a little bit older, doesn't matter how much.

And I make up the character for the game.

I submit that if you cannot do this, you are a lying-ass dog.

Best, Ron

I can't find anyone there that'd suit - somehow that makes my high school even more depressing.

In that case, a twisted thought is to figure out who I would have 'made do with'. Add 20 years to him. Play out my compromise.

BTW, Ron, don't get too frustrated, man. Your idea is most likely presenting alot of questions to other people even before they get to the question your trying to pose (imagining your gay self is actually a bucket load of questions to begin with, for example). That's probably why people are being pedantic and/or reading it the wrong way. The wrong way because that particular way struck them as really interesting and then they think because of that, that's most likely what the rule means.

LOL this thread is a riot.

I actually like the idea alot.  First I am hetero, but have freinds of all possible orientations, so maybe this seems easier for me.  Second any actor should be able to do this with ease, I am by no means an actor, but any gamer should be able to stretch and play other genders or sexual orientations. 

Not sure I would want a whole system designed around this, but it sounds like an excellent exercise.  As for those who have difficulty playing gay characters ... well, did you see too wong foo?  Macho man Patrick Swazi and blade in dresses.  Perhaps you should check out some old Bejing theater stuff, you know women were not traditionally allowed to act.  Look in the right places and you can see Jackie Chan playing a woman, and flirting with the guys.  Last but not least, every disney film prior to the old mans becomming an ice cube featured a drag scene.  Just something to get you thinking.

First let me say I think this concept is great if only for the whaaa! Reaction I can see from some of the more hack and slash “Real Men” I play with. I think this could be a great exercise for players who can’t come up with a character concept just because it puts them so far off their center and can be dropped into almost any modern setting. Granted I see this more of a writers block type tool than a corner stone for a game system but I may slip this in between the ums and errs of the next character generation I run and will definitely speared the concept to my friends to see their reaction, and hopefully I can get a real one not just bravado.

What have your trial runs been link with this concept?

Hi there,

At present, I agree that it seems mainly to be an exercise or curiosity ... but I've been surprised in the past by how many such things turn out to be crucial linchpins once the rest of the system snaps into place, during game design. In role-playing, it's often the case that an effective fix for X often indicates that one should get rid of X altogether and make the "fix" into the plain and simple rule.

Furthermore, I was struck by how solid or certain others' responses were, in my first conversations. That's often a sign that something interesting is afoot.

I'll look forward to your report from the field ... it also amuses me to imagine a bunch of macho-at-the-table guys with this in front of them. Especially since as I see it, it's a totally unthreatening exercise ... except for what one makes of it.

Best, Ron

Hmmm.  This isn't exactly easy or effortless for me.  Not for lack of imagination or some sense of moral outrage, but just logistically.  Outside of my family, I'm pretty sure I'm not in any sort of contact with anyone I knew when I was 15.  I haven't thought about any of them for years.

My analysis of this process is:  Hey, wait a second -- let's try it, for a moment, without step 2 -- the magic orientation switcheroo step.

What does that give us?  Well, it gives us reality, more or less.  How much more or less depending mostly on the player's age.

Now, for me, here's the crux of the thing:  Does Step 2 actually change that reality in any significant way?  From a purely personal experience, I feel my answer is No, not really.  Which might be interesting in and of itself, or it might not. 

Cheers,
Roger

Roger, I am agog ... you too have misunderstood.

I'm pretty sure I'm not in any sort of contact with anyone I knew when I was 15.

Quote from: Ron Edwards on July 07, 2006, 10:43:20 AM
And bisexual is not problematic at all - just switch to non-bisexual of whatever sort.

I'm confused now. Wouldn't that cause you to describe the same sort of person you would have a crush on anyhow?

Well, that's probably splitting hairs anyhow.

Furthermore, I was struck by how solid or certain others' responses were, in my first conversations. That's often a sign that something interesting is afoot.

but mainly to some kind of kneejerk "guh! gay not me!" thing.

Very interesting, Ron.

The whole sexual orientation things isn't the point at all, correct? You're not asking us neccessarily to make the person/character gay (or straight, if that be the case), correct?

Really, you're asking us to find someone we admire (maybe that's not the best word to use), and try and role-play the idea of that person. Is that right?

The whole reverse sexual orientation is a way to get us out of our normal pattern of thinking, enough to make us think about the idea of the person, rather than think about our strict experience of a teenager.

At least, that's how I interpret the excercise.

joepub wrote:
[Speaking personally...
Bisexual, for me, doesn't mean "of two orientations"
It is not gay + straight, but its own orientation - one undefined by gender, and one dictated by a largely different criteria than gay or straight ones.

As such, I can personally easily answer the question "reverse your orientation".
the reverse of my orientation:
-is attracted to the archetypal man or woman
-none of this "each person is sexy in their own way" crap, anymore
-is highly fixated on gender and the elements of gender

Roger wrote:
Now, for me, here's the crux of the thing:  Does Step 2 actually change that reality in any significant way?  From a purely personal experience, I feel my answer is No, not really.  Which might be interesting in and of itself, or it might not. 

greyorm wrote:
And let's face it, the Deep Ones want humans to breed with, not to have man-manthing love with, so you know none of Cthulu's cultists would be gay men. Shit, gay men save the world from unnatural and indescribable horrors -- gay men being the only ones who CAN save the world from unnatural horrors. That's mind-blowing enough in terms of twisting stereotypes and rhetoric into bizzare and revealing shapes that I love it.

Guys!

Has anyone actually tried this?  You do realize it doesn't actually require you "roleplaying yourself" anymore than simply asking, "What if?" which ought not to be a difficult question given our hobby!

The exercise is simple- it causes you to step out of "your head" for a bit, while at the same time identifying things that are important to you without getting over mental about it.

That's it.

The hemming and hawing and all the rest is BS.  If you can imagine what it's like to be a cat-person, or a space ninja, or a master of magic, you can imagine what it would be like to be attracted to someone different.  Because trust me- people of a different sexual orientation are a lot more like you and me than a frickin' space ninja.

And then, you're not even expected to play that- you're just using it as a "targeting device" to pick someone else to be fictionalized.

Chris

timfire wrote: At least, that's how I interpret the excercise.

Okay, so soon after Ron first posted this, I tried it with my wife, Julie.

Josh: "Remember yourself when you were fifteen. Picture going to school, the people you hung out with, the teachers, and the various rituals of getting home from school."

Julie: (beat) "Okay."

Josh: "Revise your memory of your fifteen-year-old self by reversing his or her sexual orientation. Full about-face."

Julie: (beat) "Okay."

Josh: "Now identify the individual whom that fictional version of yourself would have had the most intense, heartbreaking, impossible crush on."

Julie: (beat) (beat) (beat) "Okay."

Josh: "OK, take that person and fictionalize him or her, adding ten or twenty years. Say what they're doing and what it's like. That's your character."

Julie: (beat) (beat) (beat) "Okay."

Josh: "So, who's your character? What does she do?"

Julie: "Well, she took an early retirement from being in a successful Goth band."

Josh: "Cool. I think you just came up with an awesome character for Vampire: The Requiem."

Julie: "Yeah, you're right."

Seriously, it took no more than 5 minutes. So, then I tried it myself.

Remember yourself when you were fifteen. Picture going to school, the people you hung out with, the teachers, and the various rituals of getting home from school.

Horribly easy.

Revise your memory of your fifteen-year-old self by reversing his or her sexual orientation. Full about-face.

As much as I dig women--and always have--this is also really easy.

Now identify the individual whom that fictional version of yourself would have had the most intense, heartbreaking, impossible crush on.

No question. My best friend, Jason Stein. He was smart, creative, athletic, funny, and good-looking. Every girl I had a crush on in middle school had a crush on Jason. And what made it even worse was that he was incredibly humble. I would've hated him if he hadn't been so damn nice and such a good friend.

OK, take that person and fictionalize him or her, adding ten or twenty years. Say what they're doing and what it's like. That's your character.

Okay. Jason was really smart, especially with math, but he was a total slacker. So, let's make him one of those eccentric but goodhearted lazy geniuses who gets recruited by some super-secret intelligence agency-within-an-intelligence agency.

Next spy game I'm in, I've got my character.

Now, is anyone seriously going to tell me that it's hard to pick out the kid from your youth that you would've had a heartbreaking crush on if you'd preferred that gender? I mean, this is a pursuit in which people make characters who are 300-year-old Elf archers and talking ducks and shit. This is the hobby in which people brag about how imaginative you have to be to do it. And people are saying they can't imagine who they would've had a crush on if they'd been gay? Jeezum Crow...

I will. Cause yeah, I thought of my best friend and then I thought "Wow, that's so utterly dull though. Were's the difference that causes the spark? The difference like in 'Viva la difference?'"

I mean sure, I could imagine a comfortable relationship. But is that really a relationship, or something you'd do because your too scared to really find someone who rocks your world? My friends were like a foundation, not shakers of foundation. And were talking heartbreaking crush here, not someone to just warm the bed during a cold winter. My high school - no, no one.

For the compromise I said before, I chose someone outside my social set, but not by far. Funny and energetic, but from my older perspective, I can see kind of empty. Someone you can read your ideals into and they don't contradict mostly because nothing is there. Gay version can make him into a heartbreaking crush. I do find the idea of this guy being the only chance to stop Cthulu coming to earth, a really interesting concept. Exactly what is betwen cthulhu and the earth? Is it already too late?

My problem is that I'm still in semi-regular contact with my two major boy-crushes of high school, and it's really hard to imagine them as anything but themselves.

It's a really fascinating exercise, though.  I guess in 10 years it'll be easier for me, if I lose touch.

yrs--
--Ben

The guy I'd have fallen in love with would probably be the guy I secretly wanted to be like. Now, when I try to let him age, rationally I'm pretty sure he'd end up a fairly wrecked junkie-type with a personality/attention disorder. However, when I see a picture of him in my head, he's this colorful, creative, artistic, loony charming guy.

So yeah, I think it's something like what Timfire said. An ideal version of someone you admire, or admired. For me, it's the guy I wanted to be, just all grown up.

I dig Ron's character creation concept a lot. It's much like Vincent Baker's monster creation process for Afraid: http://www.lumpley.com/afraid-monsters.html

But I did stumble, when I actually tried it out.  Ron's questions were not quite straightforward-enough to yield snap answers.
Instead, I lingered on "Waitaminute. What does that mean, exactly?"

My suggestion would be to drop the sexuality-change at the start.  Just pick someone you DID have an impossible crush on-- someone who you don't know what became of 'em.

Then add 20 years, etc.  Leaving them the sex/orientation they are, until the end.

THEN switch their gender and orientation to match yours... unless it already matches yours.  Then switch the other way.

And by the way Ron-- or anyone who thinks there's something wrong (like homophobia or reading comprehension) with we who had a hard time with the exercise-- wake up!

Why bother to float an idea if you're just going to blame the players if it doesn't work well?
If you're sure the idea is not faulty, then don't pretend to test it.

If the purpose of this mechanic is to detect players who are uncomfortable with speculative sexuality-talk: it doesn't work.
It yields false positives.
If the purpose of this mechanic is to weed-out players who lack creative-nimbleness to keep up: it works great. I'm out.
If the purpose is to generate great characters with ease, it needs a little work.  But the concept is right-on.

Apologies if this sounds like a flame.  Please try to see the good faith contribution.

Heh. I went to an all-boys' high school with pretensions towards being a British 'public school', so doomed boy-crushes would be right in-genre. My only stumble was not being able to think of a classmate cool enough for my alternative self to crush on... but then I remembered the tall, red-haired drama guy two years ahead of me with the amazing scarf. I believe he actually is an up-and-coming theater producer in New York now.

[quick googling]

Yes, I think that's him. I don't think the stubble really is his best look, though.

Thank you, Ron. Besides giving me a lovely little character concept, you've made me think about someone for only the second or third time in ... hell, ten years, I think.

Call Me Curley, too.
I'll go by lying-ass dog, too. A funny oxymoron: I have never known a dog to prevaricate, even with behavior: they are usually guilty-looking-ass dogs, in my experience. And their asses NEVER lie, to be sure--perhaps whisper, but never lie and never pull punches.
Or did you mean lying, as in "on the ground," like a lazy person? I might be lazy, yeah.
Uncreative, too, sure! After all, if I can't imagine myself as a 15 year old gay boy with a crush on a peer, then surely I can't imagine myself out of a wet paper bag. (I should play a wet bag, next game!) Gee, but if I could just imagine the possibilities! (Maybe I'd understand how Manga got so popular?)

So I have learned much hard truth about myself from this exercise. I am, in a nutshell--(He said "nut!")--an uncreative liar who surely must be hung up on gender issues, because I can't imagine having a gay crush on someone at 15. Can I PLEASE regain a shred of self-respect by imagining myself at 10 or 11?

I would have had a gay crush on Mr. Spock, at 10 or 11.

LOL at the whole premise, now, in light of how it has been "supported" by the OP;
David

Is the change in orientation part of the exercise there to ensure that you have a concept for a character of your own gender? Or does it have some deeper association with the sort of mind-bending you want to go into this process?

Or, maybe given the relative trouble people seem to be having imagining their past selves as gay, it could be changed so that you remember your past self, potentially tweak some other aspect of your life, and then come up with someone you would have admired but not actually been friends with. (Or, potentially, you could replace "admired" with other adjectives in the process. "Despised" could go well with some sorts of games). Then, taking that person forward into the present and using that as your character concept.

And one last question, because I'm curious about what you think of this. Could you do the same thing, more or less, but in the present, and extrapolating the character concept into the future for a futuristic game? I'm not sure this would work out as well, but it could get rid of any trouble people are having with remembering when they were 15, or remembering who they knew when they were that age.

My "Pornstar name" is either

King Gunn

or

John Wackett

by either of the two most common methods of deriving Pornstar names.

no lie!

That's my answer ...

Stefoid, that was a singularly stupid post, and worth closing the thread for.

Apparently all manner of private messages and hair-tearing are going on due to my notion, or to odd readings of it, anyway. I'll leave you guys to it. Thanks to all who posted with content, including the dissenting ones. The thread's closed, no more posting to it.

Best, Ron