Topic: Insurrection
Started by: MJGraham
Started on: 7/13/2006
Board: First Thoughts
On 7/13/2006 at 11:45am, MJGraham wrote:
Insurrection
Hello,
I'm a fledgling game designer in the early to middle stages of creating an independent roleplaying game. The game's working title is Insurrection and it is based around characters clandestine attempts to oppose evil authoritarian powers. Set in a low fantasy world that mirrors late Renaissance to early Enlightenment Europe, characters join together to form revolutionary cabals with the purpose of not only overthrowing oppressive authorities, but also in holding back the darkness that will engulf the world if the current despotic powers remain in control.
As individuals each player roleplays a member of one of the revolutionary cabals. Together the players collectively roleplay the revolutionary cabal which members are the player's characters. Aspects of the individual/character elements of the game are predominantly gamist/fortune with an emphasis on flexibility, simplicity, and a focus on character development through improvement of skills rather than by level. The group/revolutionary cabal aspects swap fortune for karma and places and emphasis on goal setting, player cooperation, and group rewards through reputation (experience) gained by achieving goals that harmonize with the player characters shared principles.
As of now, I'm very pleased with the individual/fortune part of my game. I've trimmed the fat, removed unnecessary baggage, and created a system which is both simple to play and easily accommodates a wide variety of possible situations which may crop up during the course of play. With the group/karma elements of the game I hope to create something that will firmly root the players' revolutionary cabal into the setting itself.
While I have what I believe to be quite a broad knowledge of mainstream rolepaying games, my experience with karma systems is quite limited. Can a karma based system work within the situation of a players roleplaying as a group with its own defined set of goals and principles? Would using karma for the group roleplaying half of the game cause problems with the individual/fortune side of the game? Where the two systems cross over, e.g. individual decisions effecting the outcome of the group or vice versa, will there be pitfalls that I will need to avoid?
On 7/13/2006 at 12:25pm, contracycle wrote:
Re: Insurrection
Interesting propositions.
Comment the first: given that the Montaigne sourcebook for 7th Sea is the hardest to find, your "renaissance rebels versus magical despots" will probably fly nicely.
Your real querstion howevever may be a bit specific in that I'm not sure theres much of a body of examples of group-level karma combining with individual-level fortune to call upon. Something that would probably be worth taking a look at is the strong combined karma/fortune mechanic in Conspiracy-X . This also has some organisation elements, given the topic, but these are mostly restricted to resource purchases.
I guess the main concern that occurs to me is the frequency of rolling to determine appropriate karma values at the interface. Although your own conception might be very different. But, say you had a karma value for something like the groups total finances. This would be affected by their transactions, right, and if their transactions are fortune based then their value may only be generated, known, at the moment. Then you might have to establish some kind of periodism for these checks, like once a month, which may translate into a large accounting load.
On 7/13/2006 at 12:29pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Re: Insurrection
Hi there!
I don't want to be too abstract in answering, because a lot depends on the details of your game. But here are some notions regarding your final questions.
1. Every real Karma-resolution system I've enjoyed has relied on resources that really act as limits. They really get used up, and there are consequences of being low or at zero resources. The best example off the top of my head is Pace, by Fred Hicks, along with other games at EvilHat Productions.j
Notice the personal qualifier - I'm describing my experiential preference, not some kind of "must do it" principle.
2. As far as mixing & matching Karma and Fortune, that's not only normal, it's really common. Resolution systems are almost all blends and mixes of the three resolution-types. So it sounds to me as if you're looking at a new kind of mix, which for a resolution-method junky like me, is nothing but great.
One question ... are the player-characters members of the same cabal, or different cabals? I can see lots of fun applications for either way, but maybe it'd be good to pick one or the other. A lot of cabal-based games tend to run into a bit of trouble over this issue by trying to say "oh well, either is good."
Best, Ron
On 7/13/2006 at 1:38pm, MJGraham wrote:
RE: Re: Insurrection
contracycle wrote: Interesting propositions..
Comment the first: given that the Montaigne sourcebook for 7th Sea is the hardest to find, your "renaissance rebels versus magical despots" will probably fly nicely.
Your real querstion howevever may be a bit specific in that I'm not sure theres much of a body of examples of group-level karma combining with individual-level fortune to call upon. Something that would probably be worth taking a look at is the strong combined karma/fortune mechanic in Conspiracy-X . This also has some organisation elements, given the topic, but these are mostly restricted to resource purchases
Thanks, I'll definitely give Conspiracy-X a look.
[quote-=contracycle]I guess the main concern that occurs to me is the frequency of rolling to determine appropriate karma values at the interface. Although your own conception might be very different. But, say you had a karma value for something like the groups total finances. This would be affected by their transactions, right, and if their transactions are fortune based then their value may only be generated, known, at the moment. Then you might have to establish some kind of periodism for these checks, like once a month, which may translate into a large accounting load.
Karma will mostly occur during events which the players feel are vital to the groups story. These events will have what I call dramatic resonance and the players will be allowed to use the shared karma of the group as resource for their individual actions. With the group sharing karma as a resource my hope is to encourage cooperation between players (ideally players won't use karma unless it helps the group).
On the subject of finances, I'm using a system based around the economies of 16th century Europe. Everyday goods can be purchased by individual characters using their own supply of silver florins (the currency with which commoners are paid for their labour). Luxury items, e.g. a roll of silk, a bag of finest saffron, a house, a slave etc. cannot be purchased with silver florins. Instead they must be purchased using either promissary notes or gold sovereigns; both of which are almost entirely owned by the powers that dominate the societies in which the game is based. Together using the groups reputation modified by relevent contacts and previous luxury purchases the group can obtain more luxury goods.
Personal finances are calculated after every transaction involving the buying or selling or everyday goods. A character buys a tankard of ale for 4 silver florins deducts those 4 silver florins from their total. Group finances are calculated between gaming sessions. Personal finance in the game is more like the money you have in your wallet. Group finances is perhaps better thought of like credit rating for the entire group.
I feel I may have misinterpreted your post. Please tell me if my response isn't what you were looking for.
Ron Edwards wrote: One question ... are the player-characters members of the same cabal, or different cabals? I can see lots of fun applications for either way, but maybe it'd be good to pick one or the other. A lot of cabal-based games tend to run into a bit of trouble over this issue by trying to say "oh well, either is good."
Players will belong to the same cabal. They don't necessarily have to get along or even have entirely the same goals as one another. But if they want to survive they will need to cooperate, e.g.characters that go against the group too often will find they no longer have access to the group's karma.
While the setting itself may be pretty dark and gritty, I want the player characters to represent a beacon of hope within that darkness. The game is an opportunity for non-epic heroism. Characters are encouraged to be benevolent and courageous, not because they are destined to win against terrible odds but because of what they symbolize within the setting itself - heroic resistance. Hence the reason for avoiding character belonging to different cabals. I don't want character competing with each other when they should be united against a common enemy.
On 7/14/2006 at 12:14pm, contracycle wrote:
RE: Re: Insurrection
I may have misunderstood what you meant by karma, could you expand? What kind of actions do you see it being used for?
When you say it will be used for "story" based decisions, what sort of thing do you mean? Would these be actions taken by characters or players?