I know there are a few people here, who are interested in running Shadow World with HQ, so i thought it would be a nice idea to start a thread on that topic.
I myself have never played Shadow World but i like to read it.
The Cloudlords of Tanara was something i bought in 1987 and it fascinates me till today. I did a little conversion of some of the main characters just for the fun of it.
I know its not really important for a conversion but there was very little information what levels in RM actually mean. The only thing i could find was, that level 20 is a „lord“. A level 20 fighter has the highest OB of 165.

Whats funny about Shadow World is that a lot of books have detailed races and nations with complex political situations but also lots of buildingmaps with traps and treasure stuff that simply screams: dungenonadventure!!! at you.....

Something else i really find strange is how magic is part of the characters.
One of the leaders of the Duranaki (a kind of punkrock/new wave-look nocturnal woodland nation), T´revor Arain, who looks like Billy Idol, is a silver merchant but also a mystic. So his spells deal with illusion, stealth, suggestions. A mixture of jedi, ninja, illusionist, psionic.
But there is barely a hint how he actually uses his magic in everday life. It seems as if that was just added because thats his RM class.
This was better done with the Duranaki´s slave race, the Myri, who are conditioned to be a 100% perfect servant by a magical machine.
I think the whole ritual/machine magic makes much more sense in a magically rich world than: everybody is a magicuser and can toss a fireball.

There is also a race of Aztec-like people called Yinka, ruled by corrupt priests. Their god Yugal demands human sacrifices. The book speaks of him as an unforgiving god who demands much from his servants and returns little more than impatient wrath at their failures.....
Channeling (theistic magic) in RM is explained as getting magical energy (spells) from the god himself, although that doesnt need his approval most of the time. The channeling magic is not very god specific, more a type of broad clerical magic, like healing and turning undead creatures.
Mateshe, the Yinka high priest rules his people by stating that every order is a holy message he received from his god (which is a lie). At the same time he has very „evil“ spells: death spells, curses, absolution.
I think this would be problematic in HQ terms because the theistic magic demands a very close relationship between god and magicuser.

Whats also interesting about SW characters is how much they lack in HQ terms. If you read the description there is very little that can be used as personality traits. They have professions, magic, classes, weapons, and very often magic items (mostly combat orientated) with X uses a day (something i find hard to adapt to HQ). So i think here HQ could add a lot to SW!

Der_Renegat wrote:
I know there are a few people here, who are interested in running Shadow World with HQ, so i thought it would be a nice idea to start a thread on that topic.
I myself have never played Shadow World but i like to read it.

The Cloudlords of Tanara was something i bought in 1987 and it fascinates me till today. I did a little conversion of some of the main characters just for the fun of it.

I know its not really important for a conversion but there was very little information what levels in RM actually mean. The only thing i could find was, that level 20 is a „lord“. A level 20 fighter has the highest OB of 165.

Whats funny about Shadow World is that a lot of books have detailed races and nations with complex political situations but also lots of buildingmaps with traps and treasure stuff that simply screams: dungenonadventure!!! at you.....

Something else i really find strange is how magic is part of the characters.
One of the leaders of the Duranaki (a kind of punkrock/new wave-look nocturnal woodland nation), T´revor Arain, who looks like Billy Idol, is a silver merchant but also a mystic. So his spells deal with illusion, stealth, suggestions. A mixture of jedi, ninja, illusionist, psionic.
But there is barely a hint how he actually uses his magic in everday life. It seems as if that was just added because thats his RM class.

This was better done with the Duranaki´s slave race, the Myri, who are conditioned to be a 100% perfect servant by a magical machine.
I think the whole ritual/machine magic makes much more sense in a magically rich world than: everybody is a magicuser and can toss a fireball.

There is also a race of Aztec-like people called Yinka, ruled by corrupt priests. Their god Yugal demands human sacrifices. The book speaks of him as an unforgiving god who demands much from his servants and returns little more than impatient wrath at their failures.....
Channeling (theistic magic) in RM is explained as getting magical energy (spells) from the god himself, although that doesnt need his approval most of the time. The channeling magic is not very god specific, more a type of broad clerical magic, like healing and turning undead creatures.

I think this would be problematic in HQ terms because the theistic magic demands a very close relationship between god and magicuser.

Whats also interesting about SW characters is how much they lack in HQ terms. If you read the description there is very little that can be used as personality traits. They have professions, magic, classes, weapons, and very often magic items (mostly combat orientated) with X uses a day (something i find hard to adapt to HQ).

So i think here HQ could add a lot to SW!

Hi Mike,

You are aware, Christian, that I run my HQ game in Shadow World, and have now for a few years? And that I've done tons and tons of conversion work?

Which you can find here: http://random.average-bear.com/ShadowWorld/HomePage

I'd love to see the conversions. Do you have them posted somewhere? If not, I could post them on the wiki, if you'd like. If not, but if you have them in another electronic format, would you be amenable to sending me a copy?

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I know its not really important for a conversion but there was very little information what levels in RM actually mean. The only thing i could find was, that level 20 is a „lord“. A level 20 fighter has the highest OB of 165.
Yeah, I use this as a benchmark as well......*snip*
I figure this is the point where the character is a "master" of his thing, so I rate them at 5W2 or so at this level. As a benchmark, again.

Characters of 20th level and above, however, are generally classified as "Lords" and are usually identifiable amongst a collection of lesser beings by their bearing and the deference shown them by others knowledgeable of their status.

These factors lead to normal combat bonuses of -50 - +165 (plus any racial or special bonus). Any system being used  can be examined for its normal minimum and normal maximum "to hit" bonuses. A simple table can then be easily constructed to relate the range -50 - +165 to the range of bonuses in the system being used.
(Note: a 20th level fighter has an OB of 160)

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I think this would be problematic in HQ terms because the theistic magic demands a very close relationship between god and magicuser.

A couple of options to deal with this. Either he actually does have a closer relationship with Yugal, or he knows some other form of magic. Either is pretty interesting to contemplate.

Hmm.. this brings back memories.

I began running MERP/RM in 1992 or -93 and kept going through various modules until  95 or 96, when I picked up Jaiman:Land of Twilight. Shadow World has been my main fantasy setting since then. I've made several attempts to run the Sea Drake saga, none of them getting close to the conclusion before evaporating.
My most successful campaign was a very freewheeling one featuring two adventurers called Tarkan and Arman, a big Saralian warrior and a sneaky bastard of unknown origin. They basically wandered from place to place and got into trouble, and it was a lot of fun.
I have used a mix of published setting material and my own stuff, but only a very few of the many highly detailed 'adventure sites' prevalent in the sourcebooks. Part of that may be because a lot places are exceedingly dangerous, but also beause I'm not very interested in running dungeon crawls. Well.. dungeon crawls.. there aren't actually a lot of dungeoncrawling missions in the SW books, as I remember. There are adventures which require you to infiltrate various strongholds, but in a lot of cases the maps are just .. there, in case you might need them. Very similar, in fact, to the excessively detailed maps in many of the MERP books.

Anyway, it is as Mike said; after you've removed the back, most of what you're left with is potential. Shadow World can be seen as Middle Earth with a space opera backstory, various evil illuminati conspiracies with conflicting interests and a lot of fascinating cultural tidbits from around the world. (And Dragonlords. Dragonlords rock) But you had to fill in the blanks yourself, which has led to a a lot of people having widely diverging interpretations of what kind of setting Shadow World is. For instance, my vision of Kulthea, and especially Jaiman, is considerably more modern than the setting as written; closer to the 18th than the 13th century. Somewhat ironic since the original Jaiman setting is most purely 'high fantasy' part of of Shadow World.

One of the things I've struggled with is how to interpret the Unlife, both in terms of game mechanics and metaphysics. What is it? How does it work? What does it give you.
The source material has been contradictory on what it is; it's a Evil! it's Anti-Essæence! It's a force of pure order that seeks to eradicate all change! (This last explanation actually fits nicely with an text in Rolemaster Companion I, in which Lorgalis explains that the goal of Unlife is to eliminate the concept of death)

And then it's the question of how this is exploited as a source of power. My best explanation is that it's a less turbulent parallell to the Essæence, and thus easier to handle, but with side effects. Like drinking from a stagnant pool rather than a waterfall. Far from healthy.
The book on Powers may have more insight on this. Have any of you read it?

Anyway; the motivations are contradictory. That doesn't matter, I prefer my games without a singular great evil to oppose. However, if I am to use the Unlife at all, I need a good way to handle it in game mechanics. The default method in RoleMaster is to tie the Unlife to the Evil spell lists and give the character an extra set of Power points. That allways felt like clunky solution to me, but I never got anything better cobbled together. I have a feeling though, that this is another area where HeroQuest will give better service.

Thanks for the write-ups. Nice work.

Der_Renegat wrote:
The wiki is a cool thing, unfortunately there isnt much happening at the moment Shadow World wise.....

Its probably debatable but im not sure if i agree.
I think RM level 20 should be at least 15M2, perhaps higher and level 25 (a VERY capable being) something like 5M3....

These factors lead to normal combat bonuses of -50 - +165

If you take that for granted a bonus of 165 would be in the M3 range, perhaps even 20M3 i guess.....not sure if that really works......

In regard of him being quite evil, betraying his god and still being able to channel spells i think its an obvious idea that he gets his power from the Unlife.

He gets his power points from the Unlife, but maybe he doesnt know yet....reminds me a lot of the sith and the dark side of the force.....

I would like to hear from you how you handle all the magic items.
Do you use them at all ?
How do you convert all the x times a day stuff ??

I'm posting this right after another post I've made. Don't miss the one above.

I prefer to leave the philosophy of the Unlife to the characters in the game. I just say that it's "Anti-essence" and leave it at that. Mechanically, however, what I do is allow players to take "Unlife" as a flaw. At any level. To get Unlife characters have to study it and learn it just like any other form of magic - so it's available to, for example, priests of most dark gods (Arnak, especially). But once they're into it, they can simply reach down into the Unlife reserves and get as much as they want.

What this allows them to do, is to augment with this ability. It's a bit like "attuning essences." Potentially quite powerful. But I also will penalize a player on contests where things like compassion are invoved, for instance.

This doesn't force a player to do bad things, but, basically it encourages it, and creates a slippery slope to the dark side. Because, like any other flaw, they have to pay one HP per level to buy the flaw off.

Mike

One of the things I've struggled with is how to interpret the Unlife, both in terms of game mechanics and metaphysics. What is it? How does it work? What does it give you.

Aid they received, but from a source which would in the end corrupt and enslave them totally: the Unlife.
He said his name was Teleus, and he came, fair-seeming, to the pitiful huts of the cult where the Ezranans huddled against the bitter winter. Ways of sorcery he learned them, and they were eager students, desperate with the need to survive - and the desire to have revenge....

Something very important about the Unlife is, that in comparison to StarWars or The Lord of the Rings, people dont KNOW with what they are dealing with until its too late.
The Unlife works from within, in secrecy ! Its not known as the EVIL. Some people know, like the Loremasters.
So when you gain power from the Unlife its not like: ah lets deal with the dark side of the force, i know its dangerous, but i can handle it....
Its more like, that you get more and more power until you realize you are becoming totaly consumed by it. And when its too late, you understand what that power really is, you are dealing with. But maybe you will never know its name.
I think thats really cool for the players too. Players always want power. They want powerful weapons, magic and big augments from lots of abilities.
But the more abilities you get from the Unlife, the more these abilites demand from the player acting in certain ways. So corruption is something the player is REALLY experiencing.

If you view the Unlife more like a yin/yang thing, instead of good vs.evil, you understand how one side needs the other. How the "Unlife" is just one side of the coin.
Smacking somebody doesnt makes you evil. Not if you do it once.
You my be called evil if you do it all the time. Then you are consumed by a feeling of being superior and violent.

Hi Mike,

im afraid im not a great math person, so all your charts really confused me a bit but i think i get what you try to proove.
Your first chart feels right to me.

Another point is that a RM level is an indication how powerful a character is.
Saying a Lvl20 is 6M2 doesnt really help that much. 6M2 what ? Sword fighting ? All abilities ? A few ? Some ?
In gameplay the story dictates what the ratings are, so it doesnt matter really anyway i guess.

This leads to the question what is important at all for a conversion ?
A lot of SW characters are described as being impressively tall (for their race) or have unusual eyes, etc.
Which seems to me being a sign of them being very charismatic.

I guess most of the time these ratings would act as augments.
T´revor Arain has two different coloured eyes, which gives him a "probing unnerving gaze" which is more an ability in itself, probably augmented by the the first.

I think it was soviet who said in another thread that abilities are more about characterization rather than measurement.

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In regard of him being quite evil, betraying his god and still being able to channel spells i think its an obvious idea that he gets his power from the Unlife.

See, this I don't get, I don't think he's betraying his god at all. I think that Yugal just doesn't care what he does, as long as he throws people into his maw once in a while. I have to read the text again before I can understand what you're trying to say about him.

The ruling hierarchy of this people is the church, administering the commands of the god Yugal. In truth however, Mateshe rule the land and merely claims to be receiving messages from Yugal.

For once Mateshe is sincerely asking Yugal for visons to guide him. No visons have come however....

Mike wrote:
Mechanically, however, what I do is allow players to take "Unlife" as a flaw. At any level. (..)
What this allows them to do, is to augment with this ability. It's a bit like "attuning essences." Potentially quite powerful. But I also will penalize a player on contests where things like compassion are invoved, for instance.

Der_Renegat wrote:
Something very important about the Unlife is, that in comparison to StarWars or The Lord of the Rings, people dont KNOW with what they are dealing with until its too late. (..)
Its more like, that you get more and more power until you realize you are becoming totally consumed by it. And when its too late, you understand what that power really is, you are dealing with. But maybe you will never know its name.

I agree that the Unlife doesn't have an agenda, but I don't think that the dark side of the Force does either. And I also agree that in many cases people don't know about the Unlife or that they've come across it until it's too late. But I don't see this as different than, say, Bilbo and the One Ring. Moreover, like Isuldur, I believe that many people in Shadow World do know about the Unlife. The Loremasters certainly do. There's even a flavor text in the opening section describing the Unlife in which there's a wizard class at some university in one of the larger cities at which some professor is describing the Unlife. I think it well-educated areas, the Unlife is understood, and dealt with something like a plague. At least that's the impression that I've always gotten.

Hardly matters. The key is that wizards and such will always delude themselves that they can handle such forces, whether they think they understand them or not. In fact, the books say that the dragonlords and such play with the Unlife and get away with it. So it does seem like it's not absolutely inevitable that one will slide down the road to being mad and destroying things if one uses the Unlife. But I think this merely serves to make it more tempting. "Hmmm, I won't be corrupted by it like those people were!"

Heck, you can sense Vader thinking he's still in control after all of those years when he asks Luke to rule at his side. Luke, to his credit, sees that his father is too far gone and really can't recover. Gandalf and Galadriel are both tempted by the One Ring. Saruman uses the Palantir and is seduced. He knows precisely what he's getting into, and does it just the same  - for which Gandalf chastises him, "The Dark Lord does not share power!" Of course what's really going on is that Saruman thinks he can defeat Sauron himself. That's what the dark power does, is tell you that all you have to do is embrace it, and you'll have the power to obtain your goals, and then, once you've done so, you can go back to everything being just fine. You can rule as an enlightened dictator. But the cognative dissonance between this notion, and the actual acts performed in pursuit of the power, in using it to obtain goals, alter the character, and make them more likely to behave that way again. Eventually, with enough goals achieved, the character starts believing that he's beyond morals, and can simply do whatever he wants.

As the man said, "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." From one POV, it's not that this is a "Dark" power, but simply that it's power that comes free from moral constraints of it's use. In that way, all of these things are thematically identical.

Call this the "Lucifer Effect." A light character thinks that he knows what's best for the world, and uses his power in defiance of moral codes to enforce this view as the character succumbs to the draw of the power used this way. Inevitably this leads to a fall from grace, and becoming a power for darkness.

Mike