Hello Gang,

Before I begin; thanks to everyone who helped solidify the ideas presented in the previous thread.

Now, the current thing I've been tinkering with is the mechanics of a three/five act episode for Animated Heroes. I've been listening to a lot of the producer/director commentary on the Justice League cartoons, and they often speak of the three acts, as well as the introduction and epilogue to each episode (so..sorta’ five acts). Keeping in mind that I’m not trying to simulate general super heroes, but rather these cartoons of super heroes, and the [what? Physics? Metaphysics? Genre?] specifics, I need to model the traditional three/five act story to fit the game I'm after.

My concern is whether I should use a ‘carrot’ or a ‘stick’ to pull this off. The ‘carrot’ being a reward for in-game behavior that matches (Example: Each voluntary failure in the opening acts gives the hero an automatic success in the closing acts) , or the ‘stick’; hard coded rules that pushes the players to match the proper behavior (Example: A player cannot use an Option (Boost, Recovery, Luck, and Gadget) in the opening acts, but a villain can, while the situation is reversed in the closing acts).

The carrot works only if the players follow it, and a player who is not following it could greatly wreck the rest of the episode structure. The stick denies a certain freedom to the player, but ensures the structure stays intact. My gamer instinct says to go with the carrot because it allows options, but my designer instinct says to go with the stick to enforce the simulation.

Without getting into a discussion of the possible mechanics, what are the pros and cons of both the carrot and stick, given what I’m trying to accomplish, as you see it?

Thanks again for your help.
-Brent

Having run tons of super hero games, in various systems, I think the major concern is winning the loyalty of your players. The one problem that I occassionally faced in the setup portion of the story was keeping the players from getting mad when they didn't beat the villain in the first encounter. Players sometimes forget that there is a story flow and try to force an ending in act one. This behavior wasn't usually malicious; just people getting caught up in the game and frustrated at they felt was unavoidable failure.

For this reason, I would probably suggest mostly carrot with a little bit of stick in reserve. One of the concepts that I toyed with when designing Ten Cent Heroes were kind of a Villain Point thing, where the villains used there points to uneven the odds in their favor. The idea being that they get a huge advantage in the early part of the game, but start to get easier to beat as the there VPs dwindle.

Another idea I had for your game specifically kind of came to me during your first thread. Since the stories that your game is modeled after are so distinct and paced, why not give the campaign characteristics of there own. The idea being that there could be a task penalty based on the level and difficulty of the overall story (for players only) which is reduced during each act; so that they find the odds against them at first but easier as the game goes on. With the various moods and themes these stories can take (story classes, if you will), there would be no problem crafting a character creation-type system for your stories.

All that being said, I think the ultimate pit fall is having your group sign on for this formulaic story process. It can certainly get old to go through the same motions game after game. I think the VP thing may work only because it foils the players with a concrete game mechanic as opposed to holding them back because thats the way it happens in the cartoons.

Interested in your thoughts,

Ken

I suggest checking out Octane and With Great Power for excellent functional examples of your carrot and stick in action.

Hi!
  Well, I don't think you will be successful if you design a game that penalizes players for wanting to tell a slightly different kind of story.
  Secondly, I am not sure that rewarding certain behaviors will work practically. I mean, lets try and put this in practical terms. You are suggesting that halfway through a "story" players should get a cookie if they do not spend any cookies when they meet oppposition. And then in the second half of the "story" they only get a cookie for exerting the extra effort. Seems to me like that could lead to confusing rules and gameplay.
  I think you should come up with a way to massage the numbers such that the optimal strategy leads to losing conflicts early in the story in order to save up cookies for the second half of the story. I think capes does a decent job of this and of course I already mentioned ...In spaaace!
  As an example if all else is equal, you want to limit the numer of "ass saving points" that players get, such that they will only have enough for half of the times they will need it during a typical story. Of course this example assumes a lot. It assumes that you can comfortably gauge how many conflicts will be in an average "story" and a decent gauge of what the odds will be like for most conflicts. The advantage of this suggestion is that its up to the plyers to use them for the conflicts that matter to them. Then its a simple matter of guiding the GM to saving the juiciest conflicts for the last half of the story. Sure, its a lot of moving parts, but possibly has a little more art than just  bonking them on the head when they do the wrong thing...
  Sounds like you are on the track to a strong design, keep me posted, I am interested to see where you go with all this!

I noticed in my thinking on this game that I was slowly approaching a game within a game approach, and my latest idea solidifies this concept, and gives me great mechanic to use for the three act story, by focusing on the much bigger picture.

See, the players already have some control over the direction of the game through the use of Luck, which makes them in effect, part of the writers of each episode by allowing them to alter the physical scenes, and write in or out, NPCs. Taking this a step further...what if there was a larger game going on too…the ability to make it through a TV Season? In order to make it through an entire season, they must complete a number of Episodes…say 16. Each episode must be completed in three acts, or else it’s considered an animated short (perhaps as a bonus on the eventual DVD release), or else it was idea left on the cutting room floor and doesn’t count towards the total.

The three acts must have a certain structure to them, identifiable to the players, through commercial breaks. A GM advice section will help GM's structure their Episodes into identifiable acts.

At the beginning of a new season, players can spend whatever left over Growth they have from that Season to alter their character…give him a new look, new powers, shuffle Options, and so on.

It’s in the players best interests to see all three acts through to the end, so as to complete an episode and count towards the total. The player's hold off in the early part of each episode, and really cut loose as they get into the third act.

In essence, players are playing two games at the same time...as super heroes based on an animated series, following all the internal logic...and as the writers of the animated series, trying to make it another season.

Again, a lot of this idea is born out of the producer/director/writer commentary on the actual DVDs where they discuss how a character changed between seasons, how their goal is to get X number of episodes in a season, how ideas that didn't work might end up as a bonus feature on the DVD.

Damn, I need to get a playtest document done for this, and soon.

thwaak wrote:

Taking this a step further...what if there was a larger game going on too…the ability to make it through a TV Season? In order to make it through an entire season, they must complete a number of Episodes…say 16. Each episode must be completed in three acts, or else it’s considered an animated short (perhaps as a bonus on the eventual DVD release), or else it was idea left on the cutting room floor and doesn’t count towards the total.

At the beginning of a new season, players can spend whatever left over Growth they have from that Season to alter their character…give him a new look, new powers, shuffle Options, and so on.