Hello All,

Recently into the whole indie RPG thing, I perhaps went overboard and bought a ton of games (Burning Wheel, Capes, Cat, Don't Rest Your Head, The Mountain Witch, The Shab-al-Hiri Roach, and With Great Power) and I plan on picking up some others (Dogs in the Vineyard, Mortal Coil, My Life With Master, and Sorceror) in about a month at a convention.

I've seen all these books in person (except Mortal Coil) even if I don't own them now, and I've been really struck by the physical difference between the vast majority of independent RPG and the traditional RPGs.  Generally, the traditional RPGs are in the neighbordhood of 8.5 x 11. Yet, nearly all these independents are nearly half-size.

My question is....is the decision to avoid the 'big book' format based on aesthetics ( a conscious choice to be different from traditionals or the same as other indies) or practicallity ( it's cheaper to print a half-size book).

Thanks,
-Brent

When we did Dead of Night (which is 4.25 x 5.5) we deliberately made it small and pocket sized, because the aim of the game was to be playable anywhere, on the move. It turned out to cause more problems tho, as it was neither cheaper (and in fact slightly more expensive - although perhaps this was a factor of the page count), and a lot of retailers/distributors balked at its odd size. I'm in the middle of writing a case study to post here actually, and I'll discuss it in a bit more detail there.

As for other publishers - I suspect it began as a practical issue, but I imagine now its a lot about identity. People identify books of that size as being indie, a bit different and more original. I know I do, and I intend to keep my small-press books on the small size.

I don't think format matters overmuch, but for me at least the digest-sized book has friendlier handling qualities at the table than an 8.5x11" tome.  Another relevant point is that many of these games pack a lot of punch in a few words, so a more compact layout allows the finished product to have some weight about it.  The Roach, for example could have been presented in 30 flimsy full-sized pages, but a smaller form factor let me balance text will illustration appropriately and present a book that feels good in the hands. 

I really like digest size and we plan on staying small in the future.  Games like Burning Wheel demonstrate that you can present a lot of content clearly and practically in sub-8.5x11" sizes. 

I don't think it's because we want to identify ourselves as indie as much as we just like the size.

Ron has said that he wanted to make Sorcerer that size because he wanted to feel more like a comic book (those are the dimensions of his books). Paul Czege made MLwM that size because he wanted it to feel more like a really old medieval or whatever book. I'm not sure about Luke and Burning wheel, or Ralph and Universalis, or some of the other early books that used that size. So for some of the early pioneers, the smaller book was an artistic choice.

But by the time PTA and Dogs and tSoYcame out, there was a growing concensus that, "Hey! I'm like-ing the feel of this size." (I had that same conversation with a couple of people.) Part of it was practical--a smaller book fits a smaller text, obviously. Part of it was that a smaller book fit in your bag easier and was easier to handle. Maybe there's a little bit of identification in there, but not because we want to look indie, but rather because a smaller book just looks/feels more like a normal paperback.

We went with a smaller size for Panty Explosion because of subject matter. PE is very much influenced by a number manga, so we wanted the book to be similar in size to the popular manga books you can pick up in most bokstores. As a result PE fits very nicely on the shelf next to my Azumanga Daioh books.

That's a cool thought - I can definitely see how that would work. So is that about 4x5? And did you go the whole hog and print it back to front/right to left?

It's a little bigger then that. We didnt do the back to front layout because we though it might be too confusing, since its mostly a text filled book. But I think it turned out well.

In any case i think that these a lot of neat stuff you can do with book size. Travis Brown and I did the CrossRoads of Eternity at 81/2x11, but the next version of that book will probably be 6x9. I like that smaller size. its easier to carry and fits in your hand better. On the other hand I'm trying to think of a game that would fit well with a 10x13 size. i think that would be cool.

For my d20 stuff, I've always used 8.5x11. I think that's pretty standard for d20 material (other than pocket editions), and that's not the kind of material I'd want to be going for an indie look anyway. I don't think there's any question that the digest size is now strongly associated with the indie concept. That's a factor (but not the only one) that you should consider in deciding what size to use. For our upcoming Passages book, I had always planned to go 8.5x11, but that was candidly out of habit. My layout artist innocently asked me if I was using digest size, and it struck me like a thunderbolt. Duh! Of course, it should be digest size. On the one hand, it's decidedly in the indie "camp", but more importantly the Penny Dreadfuls, Victorian-era novels, and even the League of Extraordinary Gentlement comics/graphic novels (which were a large insipration in the game) are all that size.

On a slight tangent, I wonder how d20 products would go down in a different size? There has been decidedly little exploration of this by publishers.

Hey Ralph, high five! We're early pioneers!

I chose to make BW digest-sized in order to make it stand out from the crowd. It had to look and feel different from the very first glance. And many, many people have thanked me for using that particular format. Easy to handle, easy to carry. Only drawback is that it doesn't lay flat like Justin's (beautiful) books.

Size matters,
-Luke

heh...its not easy being a cultural icon ;-)

For Universalis the thought process was primarily to give the book some heft.  86 pages half size is stiffer and has a nice heft to it.  40 pages full size would feel floppy, "light-weight", and suggest "supplement" rather than "all the rules you need".

Secondarily (and a fairly distant second at the time) was the idea that since Uni was different, the presentation should be different.  I've come to believe that is actually a pretty important concept.  "these ain't your father's RPGs" is a message that starts right from the very appearance of the book itself.

Today, I think there's a third reason.  "Indie-RPGs" particularly those "baked at the Forge" have a certain brand presence.  Its almost automatic to deliver "the list" when they are discussed.  I think its good that, for the most part, the games on that "list" share the basic half size parameter.  Its kind of the indie equivalent of having a consistent graphic design for a product line.  There's a certain commonality between Dogs, and PTA, BW, TSOY, and Uni, etc.  not in the games themselves, obviously, but in the non-traditional mindset you need to be willing to embrace to play them.  To the extent that seeing a half-size game is a cue to the would-be customer that they need to be thinking in terms of that mindset, I think the size conveys a useful presence.  Part of a meta-brand if you will.

That said, when I finally release Robots & Rapiers (yes...I am actually making progress), I'm intending currently to do so in a full size format, because the game is meant to look and feel (initially) like a pretty traditional approach to game design, and I want the format of the book to reinforce that impression.

Hello Luke,

Quickly...Burning Wheel.....Wow. It's stunning; a real eye opener for someone who's played traditional rpgs for the last 24 years.

On topic, concerning the format of BW: Is the two book format then based on a desire to avoid a 600 page, digest sized book, or was it planned for two books all along? I ask this because I understand Burning Empires is one book (I don't know the size though). What changed between the two games in relation to this decision?

I'm trying to get a handle on all the nuances of independent publishing. Thanks for the info.

-Brent

Burning Empires is 656 pages of digest hardcover.

I for one am of the heretical viewpoint that such a pagecount should get full-size book, or something in the middle, ala Eden's Witchcraft, All Flesh Must Be Eaten, etc.
For reasons of ease of perusal.

My opinion: It's a matter of priority between aesthetics, utility, and cost.

Aesthetics - Folks have covered this well, here. Certain "styles" demand certain book formats, to evoke the feeling of the inspiration. And there is a certain branding in effect, yes.

Utility - Folks have also covered the expected at-table and portability issues. I would like to add that, if your game involves live action, it's pretty much standard to use half-size or digest format, so that the rule book fits into pouches, waistbands, and big pockets. (For GLASS, I will release the main book in 8x11 but the "shot GLASS" rules-only edition in half-size format: the former is for GMs and includes art, setting advice, and situation rules; the latter is just the rules themselves, for quick reference, with no "fluff" or art.)

Cost - A spreadsheet can solve this for you: calculate the number of pages (and pages per signature) versus cost per signature for each book size and total it up. Odds are pretty good that you will save some cash by using a smaller book, if your paragraphs are generally short or if you have a lot of whitespace caused by text flow (not by design). I find that an 8.5x11 format can eat extra pages, in many rulebooks, because of the "uncontrolled" whitespace caused by text flow and line lengths (and margins and everything else). Of course, in smaller formats, one tends to format in ways that use up dead space; so this could be more a factor of adjusting design than "accidental" savings, in many cases. One poster above, Andrew, even experienced an increase in book cost with the smaller format, though I wonder if design changes and/or printer's setup charges had more to do with this than raw cost of ink and paper--we await the case study.

HTH;
David

andrew_kenrick wrote:
On a slight tangent, I wonder how d20 products would go down in a different size? There has been decidedly little exploration of this by publishers.

Brent,

Many publishers set an additional cost for games over 300 pp. My first published RPG had 500 pages, and my small-press editor had me break in down in two 250 pp. to keep the costs down. (The continuity seemed broken, however). My second book, a campaign for Mechanical Dream, was 7"x7" circa 200 pp. and high cost too, but the format wasn't in conformity with the rest of the line, which made it ugly IMHO and poor to handle. I suggest you keep a standard format if you plan on doing many books, different sized books for a same game look awful on a shelf.

I suggest you think your size and page count thoroughly first, because games over 300 pp. of any format can be a problem, depending on book format. From actual experience, Dogs in the Vineyard's format is quite handy for IRC play with only a hand available... :)

Good luck!

Erick

BTW, I'm going for A4 (European) for my next game because of the page count (200 pp.) ; I think small size does it good for small quantities of text, which could make a 8x11 book look anemic, but a 6x8 book look good, as said earlier.

One thing I learned from The Forge also : wide margins make for an easier read. It seems counter-intuitive as it's less dense, but it does make reading more fun after a few pages, compared (for example) to Testament D20's extremely dense size 8 text in two-column 8x11 format. The book is great, but I'm reading it two pages per day because of eye fatigue...

:)

Erick

Pariah wrote:
One poster above, Andrew, even experienced an increase in book cost with the smaller format, though I wonder if design changes and/or printer's setup charges had more to do with this than raw cost of ink and paper--we await the case study.

Zach wrote: While a book equal to half of a  8.5" x 11" was cheaper than the full-sized option, anything "weird" was much more expensive.

It will all depend on the printer and what they normally do.  There is nothing inherently unusual about small size.

8 x 5 1/4 is standard Trade Paperback size, found in large quantity on the shelves of any chain book store.
8 1/4 x 5 1/2 is standard Digest (i.e. Reader's Digest) size.  Fallen out of use but it used to be a common magazine format.
8 1/2 x 5 1/2 is standard half letter size.  I've never had a printer balk at giving me quotes at that size.
A5 is (I believe) the European paper size closest to these dimensions and is pretty common.

6 x 9 is a fairly unusual size.  Mailers come in that size, with the implication that the item being mailed should be smaller than that in order to fit.  So printing at that size you'll probably run into greater variety in pricing between printers who are more able vs. less able to accomodate.

Thunder_God wrote:
Burning Empires is 656 pages of digest hardcover.

I for one am of the heretical viewpoint that such a pagecount should get full-size book, or something in the middle, ala Eden's Witchcraft, All Flesh Must Be Eaten, etc.
For reasons of ease of perusal.

Just an observation, or a strange fact,  but the smaller digest size, or even paperback size of books is extremly common for Japanese TRPG. While I can't read Kanji at all, every time I go to the game store I pick up a few of the Japanese RPG to look at their sheer differances in presenting a different format for the same type of product. Its very easy to find the english section of the gamestore, go look for the large tall books, while native Japanese books are much smaller usually magna sized. Which probably makes sense, also most if not all the illustrations are magna as well.

As a consumer I actually prefer the smaller sizes and weights. I think one of the most important aspects of a book is its strength and ability to be handled roughly, and constantly shoved in and out of bags, flipped through a lot rather than its size. A smaller tougher book is better than a larger weaker book.

Cheers,