I'm in the process of starting up a Heroquest game with a deliberately restrictive premise for player characters and I'd be grateful for some input and feedback on the approach that I've come up with so far.

The setting will be the city of Syran, in Salfelster, a personal vision of which I've been working on for some time (http://www.eiderweb.net/safelster/syran). The upshot of this game is that the PCs are all exceptional young (i.e. teenage) apprentices, about to start the third year of their studies, and attending one of four Wizardry Schools in the city. As such, they have very limited specialised magic (they're essentially just Lay Members), but do have a number of Common Magic spells, either taught to them by their School (from the Abiding Book) or learnt surreptitiously from other apprentices (a debased form of Common Magic spells that I'm calling Petty Magic). All of them have the usual Homeland keyword, but at an initial rating 15 to represent their youth, and an occupation keyword of Apprentice at 17. To give them a bit more depth they also get a cut down Secondary Occupation keyword at 13, which is intended to represent their background prior to starting their studies, or perhaps their parents' occupation.

As you might have guessed, part of my intention with this is to run a set of teen-angst-ridden Rowlingesque "magic school" scenarios with a Gloranthan spin, but I'm also very interested in exploring the nature of magic, and of wizardry/sorcery in particular. Doing this from the perspective of a group of students learning about magic seemed like a good way to go about this. The game will mostly likely be run as a PBEM and I'd say that I (and the potential players that I've interested so far) are firmly in the narrativist camp. I'm hoping to get the players to write kickers for their characters too, but we shall see...

Unfortunately, when it comes to information about how apprentices learn their craft, there's relatively little to go on in the HQ rules. We are told that their masters set about "shaping their essence to be a suitable channel for wizardry" and that after several years of training they will be ready to attune themselves to a grimoire. This is accomplished by creating a portal of power to the School Founder's node on the Saint Plane and is the final test that determines whether an apprentice is ready to become an adept. We're also told, however, that there are many other tests that the apprentice must pass during the course of their studies.

What might these tests involve? And, beyond learning a couple of Common Magic spells, what might the apprentices' studies entail? The main focus seems to be preparing to access the Essence Planes, but what other esoteric or academic topics might the masters drill into their students? Perhaps more importantly at the character creation stage, what kind of abilities might characterise an exceptional student of wizardry? Is it feasible that they might have concentrated their magic use, even at this early stage?

I have quite a few ideas on this already, but I'd be very interested to hear your suggestions, as well as comments on the basic premise and game approach that I've outlined.

Cool idea. I like the combination of the human touch of the character's being in school (and how we can all relate to that), with the investigation into how essence magic works for adept track characters. In fact, I think that you're largely breaking new ground here. Though I have to wonder if some of this will be in the soon-to-be-available ILH2, or in the who-knows-if-it-will-ever-be-available supplement on Western magic.

But, I agree, why wait? When it could be fun to make it up.

In addition to classes for learning some spells, and to learn how to access the essence planes, I think that something that the book implies that they could start on early is dealing with the "essential landscape." For example, the rules for tapping essences in the section on the essential landscape. To say nothing of just how to approach such without getting hurt doing so. In fact, since common magic comes from such sources, it seems that if they're getting common magic, that they're dealing with such essences already. No, they may not graduate to actually tapping them until they become an adept (I think the book says this is something only adepts do), but they can be studying it. In the meanwhile, the can certainly be learning how to get spells from such sources, in part by actually getting spells from such sources. In fact, this would seem rudimentary, a thing taught first.

Given that there are multitudinous potential sources of essence, there could be individual study on whole groups. Going back to the Harry Potter reference material, there could be a Potions class, a Herbology class, a Care of Magical Animals class (unicorn horn being a most potent source of essence, of course), etc, etc. All depends on what sort of magic the school teaches and what they consider to be legitimate or worthwhile sources of essence (you only learn tapping human beings if you're in Slytherin).

Second, there's that reference to the master's "shaping" their essence. Well, that would indicate that the characters are dealing with their own internal essence, making it such that it's capable of interfacing with other essence. This could be even more preliminary - the whole first year could be meditating or such, trying to train the character's essence how to be "right" to use advanced magics. I think it's probably at some point along this line of progress that the character gains his "Symbolic Sight" though that probably also takes some more specific training. Again, this is also important in being able to detect essences in the mundane world, so one can find essences, and get spells from them.

Also there's the abilities in the Apprentice keyword itself. Aid My Master is one that I recall. This could represent long hours helping an Adept with his projects, for instance. This being a classic way that students learn in a more "Apprentice/Master" environment. In fact, instead of "classes" per se, I'd think that such a school would be more about who the character spends time with doing what. Learning more from working than from a curriculum throughout their stay. Meaning that pleasing teachers is even more important than it is in a boarding school like Hogwarts. If the teacher doesn't like your work, you just don't learn anything.

Heck, given that most homelands don't teach writing, but that I think that apprentices know it, that's something that they're going to have to learn in their first couple of years. There's a lot of elementary education that they have to go through in early apprenticeship. You can probably assume that they're past that in play (they have the apprentice keyword already), but it could explain what they've been doing in previous years, and, thus, what the current "first years" are doing if encountered.

The steps in "preparing to access the Essence Planes" are numerous it seems to me. In addition to the aforementioned work getting your essence ready, there's study learning about what to expect in the essence planes, what it's like, so that the character doesn't take misteps when he's there - this is represented by the "Rule" ability for the school I think. Then there's learning about how to open a portal of power oneself, which sounds like a complex subject all itself. As mentioned above, important to all of this is learning Symbolic Sight so that one can actually interperet what he sees in the essential world.

Then, in preparation for going in and attuning to the grimoire, the character has to study said grimoire. That might take a year itself to understand completely (or a significant part of one). The character basically learns the spells, but still can't cast them because he's not attuned to the source of the power that enables them. Each spell in the grimoire could be thought of as a "Class" in addition to learning it's theory overall (as they're learned as a gestalt).

Then there's probably study on the use of talismans, and how they relate to being able to use individual spells (said talismans being different and specific from school to school). Do they learn how to cast all spells through one talisman? That probably has it's own complexities of the essence mixing in that one channel. Do they learn many talismans? Then they probably have to study them individually. Again, all in preparation to learn spells outside of a grimoire as an Adept.

How's that for a start? Look at each ability obtained in the keywords and that's at least one, if not more, activities one has to go through to learn that ability. I'm sure I've missed some.

Mike

Mike wrote:
Cool idea. I like the combination of the human touch of the character's being in school (and how we can all relate to that), with the investigation into how essence magic works for adept track characters. In fact, I think that you're largely breaking new ground here. Though I have to wonder if some of this will be in the soon-to-be-available ILH2, or in the who-knows-if-it-will-ever-be-available supplement on Western magic.

Mike wrote:
In addition to classes for learning some spells, and to learn how to access the essence planes...
<--------------------------------- snip ------------------------------------------>
How's that for a start? Look at each ability obtained in the keywords and that's at least one, if not more, activities one has to go through to learn that ability. I'm sure I've missed some.

Can I play please? :)

I have more to add, but will have to wait til I get home and have a copy of HQ to hand

How is what's in the book any different from how you see wizardry?

That is, at first I thought like you did that there was some automatic hard link to the Monotheist Church in which the particular school of wizardry happened to fall. But I'm not sure where that comes from, because after re-reading it a couple of times, I'm now convinced that the book intends precisely what you're implying.

Wizardry schools are precisely "just" magic organizations that deal with essence that happen to occur most often in monotheistic societies. Note that, as in the case of the one school in Heortling society (can't recal the name now), even this is not always true. It's merely that the monotheistic viewpoint (at least in Western Genertela) accepts this form of magic pretty much everywhere. There could be a monotheistic religion somewhere, however, that did not accept such magic, perhaps being like a theistic religion, but with only one god (who might have tons of cults worshipping him in different ways).

Keep in mind that the magic systems presented in the HQ MRB are just samples, and that many more exist (Lunar Magic, for instance). So there could also be other sorts of wizardry that are associated with all sorts of other religions and such. There is no neccessary link between monotheism and wizardry. It just tends to be the case in the area most played in.

Mike

Mike wrote:
How is what's in the book any different from how you see wizardry?

Mike wrote:
Keep in mind that the magic systems presented in the HQ MRB are just samples, and that many more exist (Lunar Magic, for instance). So there could also be other sorts of wizardry that are associated with all sorts of other religions and such. There is no necessary link between monotheism and wizardry. It just tends to be the case in the area most played in.

The use of the Abiding Book implies links to the local Monotheistic religion in as much as it is scripture. If you look at the 4 example wizardry schools, the one that does not have a church connection (the Debaldan school) does not have the Abiding Book as a grimoire, the other 3 with church links do.

Whilst I have no arguments at all with schools outside of a church, and indeed am of the view that whilst there might be friction with the local church, in a country where wizardry was the "standard" magic, the "chaotic sorcerer" tag would not be automatic for an unaligned school, I do feel that you can only have the Abiding Book with in a church school.

Of course, there is no need for a member of school to pay anything more than lip service to the monotheistic religion in question, the more religiously inclined will likely have gone the liturgist or orderly route. The scientist analogy works well, there is nothing to stop a scientist having religious beliefs after all.

I assume one of the goals of the characters will be to become adepts, but will they then be going on to become wizards or will the assume other professions? If so, where/when will they gain the skills for this other profession? Perhaps if you are going to give them profession keywords at 13, these could be of the professions they will follow in adulthood/post apprenticeship, and these could develop with them over time (i,.e increase from 13 to 17 as they progress/grow older). In fact the school could include relevant classes, as schools are often tied to a profession or professions.

Finally, on the read/write issue, the implication is that a person would have had to learnt to read and write prior to beginning their apprenticeship.

Mike wrote:
...at first I thought like you did that there was some automatic hard link to the Monotheist Church in which the particular school of wizardry happened to fall. But I'm not sure where that comes from, because after re-reading it a couple of times, I'm now convinced that the book intends precisely what you're implying.

Mandrake wrote:
I assume one of the goals of the characters will be to become adepts, but will they then be going on to become wizards or will the assume other professions?

Mandrake wrote:
Finally, on the read/write issue, the implication is that a person would have had to learnt to read and write prior to beginning their apprenticeship.

Where I was going with the profession thing is that the school might be training potential wizards or it might be training soldier-adepts, merchant-adepts, scribe-adepts etc, so there might be more classes than just the ones for apprentice skills. Indeed, there might be options depending on how the character envisions his future (such as we have optional classes in modern schools) where some people might taking advanced wizardry courses (focused will would be an example) and some might take professional courses.

Taking the Adept Scribes school as an example, I'd envision that most people studying there would either be scribes already or recieve scribe training concurently with their magical education. I can't see them being apprentice wizards first then apprentice scribes afterwards. The ones who were going onto become wizards (likely to remain at the school) might get different training as they would be more magical focused, but the "average" member of the school would be a working scribe imo.

Mandrake wrote:
Where I was going with the profession thing is that the school might be training potential wizards or it might be training soldier-adepts, merchant-adepts, scribe-adepts etc, so there might be more classes than just the ones for apprentice skills.

Wow, lots of cool stuff here.

Paul, one of the demos I run is in Otkorion, and I run it assuming the material on it on the web is correct - in other words, the religion is highly syncretic between the Storm Pantheon and Malkionism. The scenario has an orderly of St. Urox in it, for instance. :-)

Mandrake (just what is your name, anyhow?), I think that the Abiding Book as a grimoire is fascinating, actually. I mean, wizards are not liturgists, they don't have services where they bless people en masse. Oh, I think that they probably can recite the blessings from the book and get the effects from them. But I also think that the clergy probably look askew at them for doing this. That's the feeling I get when playing my Carmanian wizard. Here's a society where the wizards are clamped down on tight by the church, I believe, the head wizards (magi), being also the head of the church. But what's interesting is that part of the historical reason for the clamp-down, is that apparently wizards in the past have used their magics as "Dark Magics." That is, they've fallen into Genestarus (sp?) trap, and used God's magic for evil. So, even in this repressive society, you can still see the separation of certain schools from the church.

To say nothing of the obvious breakaways, like the Spolite witch sorcerers (Ron and I have promised that we'd play a game that dealt with that at some point).

The premise of that game is that we're a group of disenfranchised Lunar soldiers (my character is the unit historian), who are far from home. There are no priests or liturgists or anything like that along. I always get the feeling that at some point some character is going to ask Xerxis to perform the rites in the Abiding Book in such a role...and it's going to be interesting to see how he responds when asked. Most likely it'll be, "B..b..but, I'm not a priest! That would be blasphemous!"

Instead I see his use of the "Spells" of the book as more "technical." He might use "Bless Building" as part of a ritual to enchant a tower (this is a goal for him actually). And Resist Pagan God, and Resist Pagan Spirit, seem pretty much like they'd just be spelly spells for him, yes with religious overtones, but not making him a priest by doing it. It's just magic that he knows how to do. I could even see him doing Lead Prayer as something to do before a battle or ritual, a spell that will help the prayer go where it needs to, to get help.

Will he ever use Bless Marriage? Maybe his own or something. But, again, I think he'd be shocked if somebody asked him to to do a marriage ritual (likely as it might be in his circumstances). That's not to say it wouldn't work if he did. Just that he'd think he was going to go to hell for having abused God's magic so. He's a scholar, not a priest.

Speaking of which, I think you have a great point with the occupation thing. I think that the Magic College in Glamour is supposed to be like this, producing a lot of Adept-warriors and the like. Yes, I think that technically this is stuff learned as a technical Adept - the first grimoire not being about a specialty. But there's nothing to say that a character who has been technically accepted as an Adept doesn't have more schooling to go through before he moves into another occupation.

Here's the key to all of this - you never lose your Apprentice keyword. This is something that's sorta hidden in the rules, but all wizards were once adepts, Paul, so they all have every ability that an apprentice has. What's confusing in the rules is that they sometimes "update," an ability, changing it for the new keyword, or just re-list the ability. But, technically, an initiate doesn't gain a new "Devotee of X" ability, this is a relationship ability that transforms from "Initiate of" to "Devotee of" and the fact that he has "Soul Vision" is not because he's a Devotee, but because he once was an Initiate (OK, actually not a great example, because I believe you can skip Initiate, but generally this is the case).

So where there are pre-requisite occupations or magic keywords, you retain all of the abilities from the prior keyword when taking the more advanced keyword. Thus, all wizards can write because they all learned as Apprentices.

(BTW, I wasn't saying that they'd learn this pre-appreniceship, but in early phases of apprenticeship that probably occured before this particular game Paul is setting up begins. To use the Potter analogy again, reading and writing is for First Years, and the players are playing, I dunno, Fifth Years. You know, getting their Ordinary Wizarding Levels....what? I've read all of the books to my five year old boy).

The point of this, however, is broader. In play, you don't add new occupation keywords. Thus a character who "graduates" from apprentice to adept, doesn't lose his Apprentice occupation keyword. He just starts adding on new abilities that relate to his new occupation. Note, not the keyword, just the abiliites. The only way to get the wizard keyword is to start with it (barring using bizzare rules like I do for keyword development).

The point being that, while such a character is learning the basics of his new occupation as may be taught at the school, he's still a student there. In fact, the point at which a student might fully graduate might be pretty fuzzy. Given that the Adept keyword indicates that the character will keep working for the school part time indefinitely.

And, yeah, why wait till one is an Adept to learn all of this?

You never really fully graduate. You just start doing other things. If you teach at the school, note, you don't become a Wizard per se. You become a scholar or somesuch. Wizards are "magic professionals" who probably do advisory (I like to note that the terms Wizard, Vizier, and Advisor all are from the same root word) work for nobles, or are troubleshooters for communities, etc.

"There's a dragon coming, go get the wizard! He'll know what to do!"

But like you say, there's lots and lots of interesting Adept-Occupation combinations.

Mike

Mike wrote:
Paul, one of the demos I run is in Otkorion, and I run it assuming the material on it on the web is correct - in other words, the religion is highly syncretic between the Storm Pantheon and Malkionism. The scenario has an orderly of St. Urox in it, for instance. :-)

Mike wrote:
Here's the key to all of this - you never lose your Apprentice keyword...
So where there are pre-requisite occupations or magic keywords, you retain all of the abilities from the prior keyword when taking the more advanced keyword. Thus, all wizards can write because they all learned as Apprentices.

Mike wrote:
To use the Potter analogy again, reading and writing is for First Years, and the players are playing, I dunno, Fifth Years. You know, getting their Ordinary Wizarding Levels....what? I've read all of the books to my five year old boy).

Mike wrote:
You never really fully graduate. You just start doing other things. If you teach at the school, note, you don't become a Wizard per se. You become a scholar or somesuch. Wizards are "magic professionals" who probably do advisory (I like to note that the terms Wizard, Vizier, and Advisor all are from the same root word) work for nobles, or are troubleshooters for communities, etc.

Yeah, I think it'll be fun to see how it develops in terms of the differences between the school. Heh, the naval academy one...think of the hazing in a wizardry school for the navy! Real life navies are weird enough without the magic. Consider the "shellback" ritual, for instance.

One thing to consider is a more "hedge wizard" sort of "school." Like just one wizard in his ruined tower out on the fringe with his assistant, and their five apprentices. Of course, this wizard is the most talented in the land, but very eccentric...

You writing this all up somewhere? I've got to try it.

Mike

Mike wrote:
Heh, the naval academy one...think of the hazing in a wizardry school for the navy! Real life navies are weird enough without the magic. Consider the "shellback" ritual, for instance.

Mike wrote:
One thing to consider is a more "hedge wizard" sort of "school." Like just one wizard in his ruined tower out on the fringe with his assistant, and their five apprentices. Of course, this wizard is the most talented in the land, but very eccentric...

Mike wrote:
You writing this all up somewhere? I've got to try it.

Naturally I want to play? Or naturally you're writing it up? ;-)

Put another way, if/when you post it online, you'll put a link up here, right? Right?

:-)

Random thought: Symbology - what are the symbols for each school? Probably not having talismans yet to identify them, do the students wear anything to identify the school that they attend? Do they have sports teams and mascots?

Like the Miskatonic University Fighting Cephelopods? "Go Pods!"

Mike

Mike wrote:
Put another way, if/when you post it online, you'll put a link up here, right? Right?

Mike wrote:
Random thought: Symbology - what are the symbols for each school? Probably not having talismans yet to identify them, do the students wear anything to identify the school that they attend? Do they have sports teams and mascots?

Like the Miskatonic University Fighting Cephelopods? "Go Pods!"

You can take some cues from medieval universities.  Fencing and duelling were popular as sports, though with somewhat more at stake than personal loyalties; horse racing was very popular in some of the Italian universities.

Back to the source material, then...wizard dueling. :-)

And, you're right, for spells learned early from a grimoire, they'll have to have the appropriate talisman. OTOH, the schools in question seem to have multiple talismans so there's not one to distinguish them. You might be able to tell the Tenebrous chaps by their rings, but nobody else it would seem. Unless there's a talisman for the "Aid My Master" spell that's common to all in the school or something that's worn as a badge.

Mike

Paul wrote:
One of my players (Bryan) was asking about sports teams. I really like the idea, but I haven't quite decided how appropriate it is yet - or whether I care if it's appropriate! It

Vaxalon wrote:
You can take some cues from medieval universities.  Fencing and duelling were popular as sports, though with somewhat more at stake than personal loyalties; horse racing was very popular in some of the Italian universities.

Mike wrote:
Back to the source material, then...wizard dueling. :-)

Mike wrote:
...the schools in question seem to have multiple talismans so there's not one to distinguish them. You might be able to tell the Tenebrous chaps by their rings, but nobody else it would seem. Unless there's a talisman for the "Aid My Master" spell that's common to all in the school or something that's worn as a badge.

Bryan_T wrote:
These institutions have some significant number of young men in them.  This leads to two certainties:
1) They need ways to burn off energy--either provided by their masters or developed on their own.
2) They need ways to compete, show off, and generally channel testosterone.
<--------------------snip--------------------------->
...To throw out a few examples:

G'day,

Given Safelsters Arkati heritage it is not impossible that some weedy human form of trollball is practiced in arcane society. It's not without precedent, In the Second Age a group of Atroxic flaggelants competed in the Dagori Cup, were soundly beaten up and thoroughly enjoyed it.

There are plenty of Horsey links in Ralios for horse race enthusiasts.

Here in Sydney the local sports teams are associated with their beast animal totem spirits - the Parramatta Eels, the Manly Tigers, the Dragons, the Roosters, North Sydney Bears, Sydney Swans, Socceroos, etc. Not sure what sport this might tie in with in Syran.

Keith

Whatever it is, it needs to be exuberant, pointlessly dangerous, and prone to cheating.

Paul wrote:
Perhaps a formalised version of the 'duel' could form part of lessons, with apprentices pitting their wills against each other under the close supervision of a master. Bryan's suggestion about a sport that involves pushing an essence around might be pressed into service here. Outside school, however, a more straightforward type of 'duel' might exist, perhaps based around the formal version, but with dirty tricks come to the fore. A popular diversion, no doubt, especially between students from rival schools.

The question of whether talismans for the spells from the Abiding Book are common to all schools is an interesting one. I initially thought that each school might employ its own mode of talisman, even for spells from a shared source, but since the instructions for making talismans are included in the grimoire, presumably this means that the Abiding Book dictates their form. Any suggestions about what that form might be?

Draining essences, even trivial ones, is likely to be severely frowned upon, along with other forms of tapping - although that doesn't mean that students don't do it.

This has sparked off another thought, actually: wouldn't it make sense for Schools (or rather, their student bodies - I guess the Schools themselves already have an associated magical entity in the form of their Founder) to have a Guardian entity, like other Gloranthan groups and institutions? This in turn might lead to an officially-condemned-but-unofficially-tolerated "capture the flag" contest between the schools, where students attempt to steal the mascot of a rival school by pitting their wits and magic against its Guardian.

Mike wrote:
The question, to me, is what ability characters use to do this. I hesitate to add on an entire new ability as this sort of activity seems, to me at least, to be sorta prerequisite for using magic at all (moving around essence, etc). But that's certainly one solution. Symbolic Sight, as mentioned might be key, but seems more passive. Create Portal of Power might make sense? You're basically opening up a small channel for essence to come through and hit your enemy? I don't have my book handy...what abilities does the standard tapping contest in the wizardry rules suggest as an ability??

So you either have to choose to make talismans all book-based, or you have to choose to make them all school based. Or come up with a way to discern which is which for what. If you go with all book-based, then the question becomes coming up with more listings for talismans. If you go with the school-based, that simply means that the school has it's own interpretation of what the talisman should be like for the Abiding Book and such shared grimoires.
(...)
Here's what I'm thinking, then. Have it be book specific, but some books have all spells come from a single talisman, and other spells come from specific talismans. So all the spells from the grimoires of the Stygian College (except for the abiding book) are taught to be used via the black stone rings they wear. But if they go learn the alchemy text, then they have to use the individual potions - they can't use their rings for this.
Make sense?

sebastianz wrote:
But isn't the focus of this different than "normal" play? The apprentices are still discovering their powers. So why not have them take abilities which are prerequisites for the real stuff and later subsumed in the keyword. Just because no one cares about them later doesn't mean they aren't there.

Another option is to allow a change in naming of the ability once the student is advanced enough/ graduated a class.

Or you make it a choice for the character. At one point he has to decide whether he is with the "bookers" or the "founders". Perhaps not all schools allow a free choice and force their students. But I think it's cool when you have to walk up to your teachers, having to talismans placed in front of you and pick one. Perhaps in each class. "I knew you'd pick the one from the book. You just don't have it in you."

Concerning guardian spirits, you could also think of student societies, which have their own guardians.Something like [font=Symbol]GSD[/font].

Mike wrote:
The question, to me, is what ability characters use to do this.

sebastianz wrote:
But isn't the focus of this different than "normal" play? The apprentices are still discovering their powers. So why not have them take abilities which are prerequisites for the real stuff and later subsumed in the keyword.

Mike wrote:
What do you envision a wizard duel looking like?

Mike wrote:
There seems to be a contradiction here, but perhaps I just haven't read closely enough. But, basically, schools have their own sorts of talismans, but books specify talismans too.

Mike wrote:
I'm a bit torn on what I'd prefer. On the one hand, I like the idea of grimoires that specify the talisman...after all, potions are talismans, right?

Mike wrote:
...Something the HQ text doesn't explain well, even in how they're named, is that Hero Bands aren't just for heroes, but, according to Greg et. al, most everyone belongs to a couple such organizations. The city has one, and many belong to it. Each district probably has one. Each church has one - that's what makes them holy places. Each Guild probably has one.

Mike wrote:
So, sure, these guardians do suggest names for the sports teams. Imperial College Spectres, Stygian Shadows, Naval Academy Muskies (or something else aquatic)....the Icon school doesn't play, they're too artsy to compete in something as crude as sports. :-)

Mike wrote:
I like the Trollball suggestion. It fits Fred's requirements simultaneously and perfectly.

OK, that's a much clearer vision on what Wizard Duelling is about. I like where you're going with it, generally - you should keep the idea, and not make it "just wizards duelling." That's not to say that such duels don't occur, just that such an informal duel isn't, well, formalized Wizard Duelling.

How about, for at least some school, the "device" is actually something that depletes when used. I'm thinking like magically enchanted feathers or something that become the ball of energy when required. Reason being, this way there can be a trade in illicitly available instances of such items, so that apprentices might be able to get a hold of some when neccessary. Or perhaps they can pilfer them from the storage cabinet in Snape's office...

That way you get the theoretical control that can be voided under the right (read dramatic) circumstances. :-)

This I can buy into. My problem with the previous version was that it did, in fact, sound like a useful ability past apprenticeship. And I still think it is - it's hard to imagine that such a ball of energy wouldn't be painful to non-wizards. OTOH, if they have to agree to the challenge or something, well even then why should they stop dueling just because they've become apprentices. Looking at the source material, it does, indeed, seem to be something that Adepts do.

I recall the scene from Conan the Destroyer where Mako has a wizard duel with the other wizard involving using their wills to try to open or close the mouth-door-thingie. I've always wanted rules for something like that.

With this version, however, it's not that all Adepts have some ability like this. It's that there's some grimoire or something that's about making the items that allow it to happen, and then the wizards just use their other appropriate abilities to control the duel. Cool. Your "Adept as Conduit" explanation is excellent, and this would just be a case of the item standing in for the Adept in this case.

You know, the more I think about it, there could well be a book of petty spells that affected a wizard duel. Some wizards don't study it, so they never learn it. So you don't have the problem with it being a part of the Adept Keyword, any more than any other spell.

Your points about grimoires make sense. It's quite possible, I suppose, for more than one grimoire to indicate the same talisman. This would explain why the Stygian School only has their black rings listed - both of their books use this as the talisman. I don't know why that wasn't obvious before...perhaps because talismans are always listed by school, and not by grimoire.

As to the potions thing, I was flashing on the recently posted details of the Sedrosa Practice here: http://www.glorantha.com/support/serdrodosa.html

My logic went like, well, if potions are like disposable fetishes for animists, then for wizardry they'd be disposable talismans. The advantage to a potion is that it's freely transferable. That is, with most charms, the practitioner has to work with the person for whom the charm is for to get the spirit in question to stick with that person (if I understand correctly). With a potion, you can hand it to anyone and it'll work upon drinking it.

This is, in fact, what gave me the idea for the disposable items for wizard dueling. I started thinking about it way back when I read about my favorite exception to the "Orlanthi are Theists" observation, the Torvald the Alchemist subcult of Lankhor Mhy. Now, I think that speaks mostly about scrolls, and thinks of Alchemy in the broadest sense. But are we saying that potions simply don't exist then in wizardry? If they do exist, just how do they work? (Elixir's too!) Seems to me to be much like a blessing from a liturgist in a way, just one carried in a bottle for use at the right time.

In any case, Alchemy is dangerous and forbidden? My character soooo wants to see the alchemy book at the library... :-)

I'd really like to see HQ used with potions, because, for once, I think we'll get a sense of them as they are in the literature - powerful magic, not just some disposable concoction, of which everybody carries a dozen doses of different varieties. And those liquids have meaning behind them....

On the subject of founders, the founder is dead and long gone, if I understand it. All that is left of him is his work and the node he discovered. The point being that one learns of him not as an entity, but as a memory. His work remains as the "otheworld entity" that makes this "specialized magic" or "wizardry." Guardians are mundane beings, even if their kind originates in the essence world or somesuch, and as such you can't get a Hero Band out of it. Instead you get cults and religions and schools that have these "lesser" beings as guardians. That is, just as there might be a sword daimone that guards a temple to a warrior god (and said daimone might be related to the god in some way, sure), there would be an essence in the school that's related to the founder's work, the essence node of the otherworld.

Or at least that's the parallel I see.

Anyhow, I'm very excited about this. The book or something mentions "rooms that groan with the weight of the enchantments upon them." That's very cool and evocative. I've always thought that this is how the "wizard's guild" would be, too. Problem is that most systems can't represent it. In D&D, there was the old "Guards and Wards" spell, and then Magic Mouths cast to warn off intruders, but somehow this always seemed too clinical and just not enough. The walls of an ancient school of magic should be soaked with essence, it seems to me.

In HQ, I think this means that there are just loads and loads of "essences," in the building and on the grounds. No, not all unicorns or undines and the like (though those can be found in the Forbidden Forest, too). But just all sorts of essences that represent the sorts of magic done there. Anyhow, some of these, obviously, serve as guardians, and it's for this reason that it's difficult for people to sneak into the school undetected - no doubt in one school, the headmaster gets alerted by the essence when such intrusions happen. In another a ghost puts up a wail of alarm for all to hear. In another a select group of individuals gets an uneasy feeling when somebody's where they should not be. Etc, etc. The defense abilites of these essences may make it actually difficult to get inside."Blessings" may make the place good for studying in.

This explains so much about the nature of magic schools. The point I'm getting at is that each individual school should have, I dunno, dozens? of essences. Many of which should have hero bands associated with them. Perhaps only one, or none of them are meant to be for the entire community at the school. There are probably some that are used by the faculty only. Some, as suggested above, for certain fraternities inside the school.

I mean, just what is Fawkes if not an essence guardian of Hogwarts, or maybe just Gryffindor? He comes in time of need bearing the sword of one of the four founders of the school. The ghosts of Hogwarts are essences right acording to the MRB! Even Peeves. It fits so perfectly - how at the end of Book 5, Nearly Headless Nick explains how they are just reflections of the real people who have since gone on. Same with all the denizens of the pictures. They're not the real people, they're the...essence of he real people. The merfolk may be undines, perhaps the squid, too - that's the classic guardian, used by Sauron's Team to guard the entrance to Moria. The Room of Requirement. The gargoyle that guards the headmaster's office. The Mirror of Erised. All the stuff that guarded the Sorcerer's Stone. The Chamber of Secrets with it's snakey doors.

The basilisk itself! The guardian essence of Salizar Slytherin's continuing efforts to eradicate muggle blood from the wizarding community, still skulking about the place, commandable only by...the Heir of Slytherin....the essence of Lord Voldemort as student Tom Riddle contained in a diary in this case. Tapped himself, he did!

OK, I don't suppose you have to represent every magical being, item, or place as an essence. But I think that it's actually an effective way to do it. Certainly not all of these have associate Hero Bands, even if you do. But the point is that there's tons of opportunity to make the world magical by looking at it this way, and ways to explain all sorts of things that happen in-genre finding the hero bands where they would be interesting to exist.

As for trollball, surely there's source material on it somewhere. Trollpak? Or is it one of those things that's only hinted at?

Mike

Mike wrote:
How about, for at least some school, the "device" is actually something that depletes when used. I'm thinking like magically enchanted feathers or something that become the ball of energy when required.

Mike wrote:
You know, the more I think about it, there could well be a book of petty spells that affected a wizard duel. Some wizards don't study it, so they never learn it. So you don't have the problem with it being a part of the Adept Keyword, any more than any other spell.

Mike wrote:
In any case, Alchemy is dangerous and forbidden? My character soooo wants to see the alchemy book at the library... :-)

Mike wrote:
I'd really like to see HQ used with potions, because, for once, I think we'll get a sense of them as they are in the literature - powerful magic, not just some disposable concoction, of which everybody carries a dozen doses of different varieties. And those liquids have meaning behind them....

Mike wrote:
Anyhow, I'm very excited about this. The book or something mentions "rooms that groan with the weight of the enchantments upon them." That's very cool and evocative. I've always thought that this is how the "wizard's guild" would be, too...

Mike wrote:
In HQ, I think this means that there are just loads and loads of "essences," in the building and on the grounds.

Mike wrote:
OK, I don't suppose you have to represent every magical being, item, or place as an essence. But I think that it's actually an effective way to do it.

Paul wrote:
Or a device that needs refuelling with rare and/or expensive ingredients that are difficult to come by. Yes, I think that this would be a useful narrative device.

Here's another idea, though: what if it the formal "Wizard Duel" (i.e. between full adepts only) was a Ritual, normally requiring community support, the right props and other auspicious factors to enact? You might even have a variety of duelling rituals for different circumstances, ranging up to a Duel To The Death version that is banned by all churches and only ever enacted in secret. You could even have a range of duelling apparatus too, so that they could be asked to "choose their weapons" at the start.

Yes, this is a good way to approach it. A 'petty grimoire' concerned with the afore-mentioned duelling rituals, which is not attached to a particular School, but is used to a greater or lesser extent by most Schools, perhaps with their own refinements. Because of its limited use outside of the formal duel context, no-one bothers to use it as a 'prime' grimoire.

And it also includes a special Apprentice Duelling ritual, which can be be used via special single-shot talismans, but which still normally require a master to activate them... unless you have a friendly adept or an advanced (concentrated?) apprentice on hand to help out. And obviously, Schools might create a stock of these talismans en masse for convenience, keeping them in a locked cupboard in the Headmaster's study...

Well, I'm inclined to agree with you. I'd forgotten about the Torvald material, which gives us a potentially useful set of game mechanics for Alchemy in HQ. It suggests that potions are essentially spells in liquid form, which makes a lot of sense. Sadly, for your apprentice, this does mean that he'll probably have to wait until he's graduated before he can delve into this forbidden art... unless he can find an alchemically-inclined adept who's willing to teach him :-)

I don't know about "loads and loads", but more than one or two, certainly.

Actually, there's a very interesting section about using essences in the HQ rules, which includes the concept of a guardian essence and describes how an essence's functions can be learned as spells (via single-use talismans).

I think that this mechanic would make a lot of sense for the School guardians. Other essences bound into the School buildings might also act in this way, but they'd be unlikely to provide spells since this weakens them in a way that cannot be replenished without a ceremony of veneration. For the School guardian, this wouldn't be a problem: they'd be recharged by the School Assembly every week :-)

It has a lot of possibilities, I agree. However, I think that there's also an important role for spells that are specifically intended to be permanent or at least persistent until activated (i.e. enchantments or wards). A shame that HQ ducks out of describing a permanent enchantment mechanic, only describing it as "a special and arcane form of magic" that is "outside the scope of the basic rules". Guess we'll just have to invent our own mechanics, eh?

Mike wrote:
Think of it as a "practice heroquest," with the real quest having even greater effects. Not just a ritual, but a whole heroquest.

Mike wrote:
Actually those rules do exist already. HQ does not duck. It merely doesn't describe the process well. But, simply, making a magic item is a heroquest. Period.

Mike wrote:
Here's another way to approach a great deal of this campaign. Answer the rarely asked question, "What does a wizardry heroquest look like, and what's it for?" Outside of the ones we know about to get spells and such. Keep in mind the difference between getting things from the essence plane, and getting them from the essence landscape in the hero planes.

As for resistances for practice quests, well the book gives a general idea. I think that looking at how hard you want to make learning the CM spells would be a good start for figuring out some resistance ratings. But for the quest in question (duelling practice quest), I'd simply set it up depending on how common you want duels to be. That is, how risky do you want it to be for characters to perform such a practice duel? If you want it to be rare, then make the TN high. If you want them to happen a lot, then make it relatively low.

I'd make it a quest with a few stages. First a ritualized practice crossing to the enchanted place (they don't actually cross, but not succeeding at this stage may still make it impossible to proceed, or simply more difficult. Second, oh, I dunno, an enchantment of the "arena." Then an attunement to the magic balls of energy. And then, lastly of course, the actual fight. What I really like about this, is that I think it's kosher to put an actual HQ Challenge in at this point. Basically the characters dueling will put an ability up against each other. So one character is risking his ability to do one of his spells, and the other is risking a magic talisman he has. And the resulting ability gained by the winner might be some sort of magical supremacy over the opponent, perhaps a spell like "Dominate Character X."

Maybe:
Stage 1: Cross to the Arena - 14
Stage 2: Enchant Arena - 17
Stage 3: Attune to Magic Ball - 1W (must be done by each contestant separately?)
Stage 4: Heroquest Challenge with resistance based on opponent's relavant dueling ability.

My point about HQs for wizards is really meant to drive on the sort of things you're getting at for the less experienced apprentices. That is, in thinking about what the advanced HQ's are like, I think you find out about the simple ones as well.

Anyhow, for instance, I think that the "suitable channel" thing probably comes in two steps. First there's the question of using essence magic from the mundane world. Pretty easy this part, really, as almost anyone can learn to use a common magic spell (and apprentices even learn some of the grimoire spells as common magic). So the hard part, here, has to be the second step, which is channeling the magical energy from the essence plane.

For a full Adept, learning a spell is a matter of going on the learning heroquest for it. I'm guessing that the common magic version of these spells works off of some local source of essence, even, perhaps, the characters's own essence - and I'm assuming that these versions are obtained by "practice heroquests." So, as the character learns to use this version of the magic, their essence becomes molded by the practice to eventually being able to channel the otherworld essences in question.

The master (and student if he has Symbolic Sight already), can see the student's essence, and can instruct the student on how to shape his own essence. Or, alternatively, he could simply manipulate it directly as he would any other common magic essence. Not quite like taking essence (per the rules in the "essential landscape" section), but using the same sort of facility with it to shape it within the subject. Making it move from the crude form that can handle the Common Magic form, to the refined form needed to actually bring the essence across from the Essence Plane, once the character is attuned to the source.

Very much I'd think that basically without this sort of essence tuning, a character probably can't attune to the otherworld source of essence. And I think that by "channeling," that what's meant is precisely the charcter's essence being the conduit to the actual transference. The caster's essence "melts" into the source on the otherworld end, and the energy comes out through their talisman in the mundane world, that being the other end of the conduit.

Keep in mind that a "ritual" or "ceremony" is actually simply something done to make a magic ability or magic related ability work better. There are no rituals that one does all by themselves. They either serve to make a spell (or feat, or fetish or whathaveyou) work better, or to make a stage of a HQ more easy to accomplish. The weekly liturgist ritual is to enable the little opening up of the otherworld so that veneration can occur, for instance. There's no doubt a ton of ritual involved in the crossings to the founder's node for attunement (starting with doing it from inside the school's "Magic Room.")

BTW, this is where you get to have all sorts of fun with the arcane trappings. Sure a character can cast his Memorize Text spell on the fly, but I'm sure with the right incense (and other herbal help), taking an hour to do the esoteric chant of the Morblungat, having several other adepts working with him doing the chant as well and continuing while he reads (for community support), doing it when the planets of memory are aligned and in the School's "Chamber of Memory," that much more difficult texts can be more thoroughly memorized.

Mike