Hello everyone,

I'm in the process of writing the 2nd edition and supplements of a French indie fantasy-oneiric RPG, and thinking ahead on how I'd do a translation-adaptation to English. Since the first edition was 500 pages long, and the new one about twice as big, I'm considering the experiment of giving it a narrower focus and a fully Narrativist system within 300 pages or so, comicbook format. I'm presently doing a bit of add-on Narrativist mechanisms such as partial narration control by spending tokens for the 2nd French version.

Now, for the English version, since the game has a mystic feel and theme to it ("Saving a dying world as Judges that interpret mystic omens"), I was considering the possiblity of reinforcing the oneiric theme by fully doing away with any proper nouns, for everyone (including PCs), and using just titles. I'm not talking about a somewhat small game with few background pages, such as (the excellent) Puppetland or Polaris, but more something with the proportion of Herowars or Runequest, with perhaps a 100 pages - .

Examples :

- The Phyrdrii plantmen would become Orchardfolk...
- The Edrian species would become the Very Ancient Race...
- King Mesarkus would become the Green King...
- The Kingdom of Asianor wouls become the Western Kingdom...
- A player character, Takisha, would become the Judge of Flaming Arrows...

English isn't my first language, so I'm not too sure how a reader would feel about it. (Sounds good in French, though). I'm trying to make it feel old, wondrous, mysterious and mystical, as could be (for example) a Tim Burton fairytale.

Would that be to weird, too unconfortable for an entire worldbook ?

Thanks for any advice!

Erick

First, quibble, you're not talking about doing away with proper nouns, you're talking about doing away with nondescriptive proper names.  Orchardfolk would be just as much a proper noun as Phyrddrii plantmen, it's just actually descriptive rather than a cultural artifact (and here's me not going down that linguistic tangent).

I think this could be a useful tactic, although I wonder if it's something you should present or just a convention you should use.  I suspect this will give you a feel very much like Exalted.

Thanks for your answer, Joshua.

Sorry if I misused terminology. I don't quite understand what you mean by "something you should present or just a convention you should use".  What I meant is, "Orchardfolk" means something to the reader, while "Phyrdrii" doesn't. Same for characters : no "Ariel", but "Lion of God" (for that's what it means). I thought it might accentuate symbolism. If I choose this path as a convention, then no NPC in the adventure and setting should have a name... no? Please light my lantern. I don't know Exalted at all, sorry, except that it's grossly a fantasy-superhero game with "clans", not unlike Earthdawn and the World of Darkness books.

This world in this game (which is already written and not "in development", since I'm talking about a translation here) has 5 major civilizations, all very very different (say, like ancient India vs the Zulus vs the Thai). I'm not talking about introducing a cultural custom specific to a civilization : I'm talking about an entire universe where nobody at all has an individual name (like Dilbert), but a title instead used as a name (like "The Drinker of Coffee"). Even (especially) the PCs. What I was proposing was dropping 100% of all names, everywhere, except for the world's name. Not a cultural custom, but a game theme book-wide. ("Personal names don't exist".) Something to give narration a specific style.

The French version of the Nephilim RPG used this a lot (but not everywhere), but I wasn't sure how it would feel to the English world. I learned English through books, so I don't always feel the proper emotional sensitivity of given words. My problem lies there... I wouldn't want an open minded reader to be disgusted at the thought of reading the politics of dozens of NPCs without individual names, unless it feels right.

For example : "...In the jail lies the Nightwatcher in Wait, third son of the infamous Bearer of the Bleak Standards. The bloodthirsty general of the clan of Scarlet Suffering, however, cares nothing for his child, whom he sold to slavers....

Would something like that be too heavy/uncomfortable to read ? Or would it simply sound eerie, formal, impersonal... ?  I guess I'd have to use short sentences to keep the text flowing... But I'm really not sure about what it'd evoke at the gaming table. :(

I always prefer a descriptive name (Orchidfolk) to a made up name. It just sounds more evocative to me.

Here's a thought - for PCs and other characters, could you link the descriptive names/titles to what they actually do, to their abilities? So the title is more than just a name, it's also a summary of the character. So if you met "Nightstalker, Slayer of Dragons" you'd instantly know he was some sort of stealthy assassin type, who has killed more than one dragon in his time. It could then tie the evocative nature of the names in with the narrative structure of the game.

Everway uses almost exclusively descriptive names, the only exceptions being gods and dragons, if I remember correctly. I like it, it has a good feel to it, and it makes it so much easier to remember the names of all those NPCs.

Andrew, you've got exactly my idea right!

Mikael : knowing the positive reception Everway got, I'm relieved to learn this can actually appeal to people of the mindset I'm looking to attract! Thanks!

Since all players will be taking the role of Judges at the endtimes of their world, trying to make sense of the omens (a sense the players decide, not the GM), they'll all be named Judge of [what they do] (e.g. Judge of Broken Skulls), not Judge [New-agey Indian-like name] (e.g. Judge Feather-in-the-Wind).

For example, an archer and war oriented PC could be The Judge of Flaming Arrows, or the Judge of the Bloody Axe.
A healer type PC could be The Judge of the Merciful Flowers, or the Judge of Temperance, etc.

Since the mechanics will probably (in the English version) be player-created Traits (e.g. Over the Edge, Dogs in the Vineyard), should there be a formal mechanism to tie names with Traits to reinforce the theme through the mechanics, or leave it to the player?

Erick

I think you could tie the theme into the mechanics better if the name was formally linked to their traits. Not by having a list of traits and a list of names that go with them (that would be proscriptive), but that you should encourage each player to pick the trait(s) that exemplify them, and use that as the basis/inspiration for their name.

baron wrote:
I learned English through books, so I don't always feel the proper emotional sensitivity of given words.
...
would it simply sound eerie, formal, impersonal... ?  I guess I'd have to use short sentences to keep the text flowing... But I'm really not sure about what it'd evoke at the gaming table. :(

baron wrote: I don't quite understand what you mean by "something you should present or just a convention you should use".

Joshua, Castlin ; you're right, I should write a bit about how names evolve over time in the game. And I will. This is a great idea, to formalize it somewhat. My fellow designers thought it was perhaps a bit excessive, but I think we could hit something interesting.

As for English universities, you'd be simply amazed at how little people speak English fluently in Quebec outside of Montreal (which is over 3 hours' ride). I happen to do revisions of English translations of official documents for my Ministry *and it's not even my job at all* (I'm into reingeneering counseling) so you can guess how many native English speaking people there are in Quebec city, excluding tourists... Not much, actually (I know but one). The Web is really the only casual English contact I have with the world, outside of the rare consultant, which is why I have no problem reading Ph.D. dissertations on economics, but I simply can't understand slang or teenager speak. No problem to write something not too bizarre, but the "how does it feel" is always the nasty part...

Which is why I refrained mostly from writing RPGs in English so far. The only lengthy things I've published in English so far was an article in Pyramid and a campaign Mechanical Dream setting, a game whose corebook English was... well, lacking. My spoken English is as good as my writing (I don't check my spelling in forums, like many people do), but I rarely get the chance to talk about fairy tales and theater with other management consultants, in "real life"....  So I was afraid my idea'd be received with a brick and a lantern, as we say here (the lantern is to see you, the brick is to throw at you).

Thanks guys, you've relieved me from a bit of anguish.

Erick

Erick isn't exaggerating -- I've played against a lot of Quebecoise frisbee teams, and those guys' English comprehension is usually pretty minimal.

Erick, I like your idea as applied to certain people's names (races, leaders, anyone with a reputation at what they do), but I like it less as a world convention (everyone).  What do farmers go by?  What about three guys in a mill in a nondescript town?  "Introducing, The Miller of Town-by-the-Crescent-Lake, The Assistant to the Miller of Town-by-the-Crescent-Lake, and The Apprentice to the Miller of Town-by-the-Crescent-Lake."  Yech.

andrew_kenrick wrote:
if you met "Nightstalker, Slayer of Dragons" you'd instantly know he was some sort of stealthy assassin type

[quote who="David Berg"]Erick, I like your idea as applied to certain people's names (races, leaders, anyone with a reputation at what they do), but I like it less as a world convention (everyone).  What do farmers go by?

David, my idea is more like Jeremy's : this is oneirism, fairy-tale like stories.

Casual people don't have names. They have a name when they matter in the story : e.g. the Melancholic Farmer, the Girl Who Weeps by the Pond, the Farmer's Wife. It won't be "Girl-by-the-pond", because "names are titles", not "indian-like names". If the Girl Who Weeps by the Pond no longer weeps, her name changes, she could become The Girl Who Smiles at the Twin Suns, for example.

I won't use contractions or "word fusion" (I don't know the right word for differentiating "Nightstalker" vs "Stalker in the Night") to keep with the fairytale/biblical feel. A name will be about what someone does. "Wolverine" doesn't correspond to this, but "The Man who hunts Wolverines" would.

You've given me the idea of making a character's name as a formal trait in game mechanics. When they do something relevant to their name, they'll get a die bonus (e.g. "the Melancholic Farmer" gets a bonus with farming). Names will evolve and change in this game, like a Trait.

Erick

Howdy.

I've been reading this thread with interest; Erick, maybe you know the game Reve?  I could never digest the pure crunchiness of the system, but man, that oneiric quality rocks!

Erick wrote:
Casual people don't have names. They have a name when they matter in the story : e.g. the Melancholic Farmer, the Girl Who Weeps by the Pond, the Farmer's Wife. It won't be "Girl-by-the-pond", because "names are titles", not "indian-like names". If the Girl Who Weeps by the Pond no longer weeps, her name changes, she could become The Girl Who Smiles at the Twin Suns, for example.

Erick wrote:
You've given me the idea of making a character's name as a formal trait in game mechanics. When they do something relevant to their name, they'll get a die bonus (e.g. "the Melancholic Farmer" gets a bonus with farming). Names will evolve and change in this game, like a Trait.

baron wrote:
David, my idea is more like Jeremy's : this is oneirism, fairy-tale like stories.

Casual people don't have names. They have a name when they matter in the story

baron wrote:
You've given me the idea of making a character's name as a formal trait in game mechanics. When they do something relevant to their name, they'll get a die bonus (e.g. "the Melancholic Farmer" gets a bonus with farming). Names will evolve and change in this game, like a Trait.

Thanks, folks. I appreciate the discussion a LOT.

David: In fact, I have 7 very alien cultures that have to work together to prevent their world's destruction by the followers of a Lovecraftian goddess of the void, She-Who-Devours. Overcoming their cultural differences and hostilities to save their world, Erdor, is the game's theme.

As for NPCs, their name depends on their role in the story told. So players take an "Actor stance" (is that it?) when playing it. As you said, "you don't meet people outside of their accustomed context in a dreamworld..." And the PCs would't wonder about this, because this is how the world is.

Thanks, Aaron. You're thinking 100% like I do. I know Reve de Dragon (Dragon Dream) very well and own 2 versions: it's among the grandfathers of French RPGs and I happen to be a native French speaker. The author, Denis Gerfaud, also created Hurlements (Howlings) and a few other RPGs that decidedly make him a reference for oneirism, long before John Tynes created Puppetland. Oneirism is becoming a genre by itself in French RPGs.

I confess : I loathe Reve de Dragon's GURPS-like mechanisms. But I love the universe.

My game, the Chronicles of Erdor, is decidedly in the same genre BUT it's not European fantasy at all ; it features previously unknown fantastic species (e.g. people purple who hear through their hands, etc.), not unlike Jim Henson's/Brian Froud's creations. Their world is dying, almost all hope is gone, a theocracy of a mad goddess is about to devour the universe ...

I've talked about the Chronicles of Erdor here previously :
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=19644.0
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=20728.0

I'd have a few RPG sites to direct you to, but they are in French. :(

I'm in the process of making the page setup with the images for the 2nd French edition. (I was published in 2002 by a very small press editor, who went bankrupt afterwards in 2003). 95% of images are finished, yet, and they're beautiful.

For the English version (shorter, more focused), I think I would like to use and adapt Vincent D. Baker's RPG system, in Dogs in the Vineyard/Afraid, that does the wonderful work of intensity I would like to do better than my current system.

My collaborators are currently checking out  DITV to tell me if they it's feasible and then, if Mr. Baker would be interested, I would like to propose him eventually some kind of arrangement. If not, I'll try to develop a different system that goes towards the same feeling : cosmic consequences for ones' actions, Narrativist mechanics. If I'd use the DITV system, which personnaly I would love (if my team agrees, and moreso if Mr. Baker's wants to licence his system to other authors) it would be possible as "Fallout" to decide that a PC changes a NPC's name, or vice versa, as David suggested.  But not until a year at least - I've got to finish writing the full 4 tomes of the French version, the 2nd of which I'm finishing writing.  But I like to think my projects well in advance...

If you're interested, I could post my English "premise" somewhere, but it's 3 pages long and I don't think posting it here would respect Forge policy.

I'm happy you seem interested from what little you read about it. I've been working 13 years on this, and I'm quite proud of what we've done with our 2nd edition. I could even show you a few pictures, if you like.

Erick

Erick, sorry it took me a few days to get back to this thread!

Erick wrote:
David: In fact, I have 7 very alien cultures that have to work together to prevent their world's destruction by the followers of a Lovecraftian goddess of the void, She-Who-Devours. Overcoming their cultural differences and hostilities to save their world, Erdor, is the game's theme.

Erick wrote:
...Chronicles of Erdor, is decidedly in the same genre BUT it's not European fantasy at all ; it features previously unknown fantastic species (e.g. people purple who hear through their hands, etc.), not unlike Jim Henson's/Brian Froud's creations. Their world is dying, almost all hope is gone, a theocracy of a mad goddess is about to devour the universe ...

Erick wrote:
You're thinking 100% like I do. I know Reve de Dragon (Dragon Dream) very well and own 2 versions: it's among the grandfathers of French RPGs and I happen to be a native French speaker. The author, Denis Gerfaud, also created Hurlements (Howlings) and a few other RPGs that decidedly make him a reference for oneirism, long before John Tynes created Puppetland. Oneirism is becoming a genre by itself in French RPGs.

I confess : I loathe Reve de Dragon's GURPS-like mechanisms. But I love the universe.

David wrote:
You might want to consider allowing the player characters some ability to bestow names on others, or to learn names that others wish to keep hidden.

Hey, Aaron, that's cool!

Your ideas gave me motivation to work on the English version. I've tossed down my boring "10 pages of provinces left" from my (French) tome 2's atlas and started to write out my first 6 pages in English. I'll post something on The Forge for feedback when I have at least a full section completed (e.g. the "Intro"). Basically, my game universe is something like a mix between Talislanta-like weird "Jack Vance" fantasy and Hebrew kabbalah, driving the theme of a dying universe under the idea of "what if the Tree of Life was imploding, and the whole world collapsing". Perhaps too weird the mainstream market, but the Forge gave me nice ideas to work with. :)

I see you've been a playtester for Polaris (reading at the book's credits). Perhaps, if you like, you'd be interested in commenting my (eventual) English version?

For pictures, here a a few thumbnails from my 3 artists. This might convey a bit of the atmosphere I'm trying to evoke by avoiding "personal names":
Image 111
Image 112
Image 113
Image 114
Image 115
Image 116

2. ONEIRISM
For oneirism, I'd be glad to help but... What do you want to know? In English, I think Puppetland and Polaris show up the theme quite well. Most French games of this genre are by Denis Gerfaud ("Reve de Dragon", "Chimeres") but there are a few others : "Hurlements" (medieval France), "Les chroniques de Nemedia" (pseudo-Bronze Age Celtic lands), "Retrofutur" ("Dark city"-like setting) and probably a few others... I'd say that "Reality is malleable by nature and cannot be fully grasped" is a good start to define the genre. I'm not sure I could contribute much more to a thread.

3. DITV SYSTEM
As for DITV, I can't presume right now about the feasibility since I don't own the rights and I don't have enough written in English to even start a discussion about a business proposal. My game's central theme is "How far would you go to save your world" :

- Would you betray your culture and your kin to save your world?
- Would you kill an innocent to protect the multitude?
- Would you repair an injustice to  "mend the Shattering of the Tree of Life", knowing by doing so could provoke a war?

The DITV Fallout idea is wonderful for such themes. I'd just crank this up a bit : instead of "guns", you have "war" : since each player would be something like a Prophet of the Ancient Testament or Islam, followed by disciples who put his stories and ideas in writing, a situation could be cranked up to full war, e.g. "To stop the (Pharaoh) from enslaving the faithful, since he will not listen to reason, Moses escalates to plague that affects the entire kingdom of Egypt (i.e. war)". Of course, I'd need to adjust Fallout on a "cosmic" scale to account for large-scale consequences. IMHO, the DITV system would be wonderful to generate the feeling of Ancient Testament-scale situations I'd like to promote through the games' adventures (e.g. the Tower of Babel, the war between Saduceans and Philistines, the Flood, etc.) in a totally fantastic setting totally uprooted from the history of Judaism. I'll have to consider similar mechanisms if I must look for another solution.

4. CONCLUDING ON NAMES
Anyhow, as to conclude about character names, I think all names of characters would be public, all names would be Traits and a player could bestow a name upon a previously unnamed NPC, or challenge an NPC to change his name (as a challenge's stake, or as fallout). E.g., keeping with the DITV analogy :
"I am the Judge of the Regretful Heart" 2d10
"I used to be the Judge of the Furious Wrath" 2d4
"I am the Scorned Peasant" 1d6 etc.

Sorry if I'm off topic. I've still got a hard time getting the spirit of The Forge's policy on this matter.

Regards,

Erick

he DITV Fallout idea is wonderful for such themes. I'd just crank this up a bit : instead of "guns", you have "war" : since each player would be something like a Prophet of the Ancient Testament or Islam, followed by disciples who put his stories and ideas in writing, a situation could be cranked up to full war, e.g. "To stop the (Pharaoh) from enslaving the faithful, since he will not listen to reason, Moses escalates to plague that affects the entire kingdom of Egypt (i.e. war)".

Anyhow, as to conclude about character names, I think all names of characters would be public, all names would be Traits and a player could bestow a name upon a previously unnamed NPC, or challenge an NPC to change his name (as a challenge's stake, or as fallout). E.g., keeping with the DITV analogy :
"I am the Judge of the Regretful Heart" 2d10
"I used to be the Judge of the Furious Wrath" 2d4
"I am the Scorned Peasant" 1d6 etc.

Hi Andrew,

Since I'm afraid this thread is becoming more and more about presenting my game theme, and less about "Gaming Without Names", I'm growing fearful of the Wrath of the Moderators falling on my meek head. Still, since my question was related to understanding if my design ideas would make sense to people who never heard of my universe (and I'm making big changes since the first edition), humble me thinks this discussion is still relevant.

To answer your questions, Andrew :

1. *IF* I'd go for something like DITV, a name and a Trait would be one and the same. Fallout could thus change a character's name. At start, a character would have the following Traits (an Ironfolk example) :

a) a Name : ex. I am the Judge of the Merciful Cup.
b) a Cultural Trait: ex. I will honour the panache of my clan and caste.
c) and d) two People (i.e."species") Traits:
ex.  The silent wailing of the moons drives the Ironfolk mad.
ex. The Ironfolk cannot feel empathy.
e) A tribe Trait: I lead the Tribe of the Merciful Cup

Players allot dice to this as they wish, but Tribe traits always have d10. Notice that all Peoples have a specific emotion they cannot feel, empathy in this case. Which makes them monsters, in a way, even more so when they attempt to express things like mercy. (This setting is strange, I warned you.)

Tribes would be "equipment" brought in during War or large scale events. For every 10 people or so, the Trait is worth 1d10. So a war involving 50 people on one side and 100 on the other would oppose 5d10 + 10d10. For larger scale events, it's simply to substitute 1d10 for 100 people or even 1d10 for 1000 people. The story is about the Judges of the Indigo Flame, not their armies' merits.

Please note that terms with Capitals may change. It's an ALPHA version so far. And all this doesn't presume anything about the feasibility of using the (copyrighted) DITV system. It's just an hypothesis at this moment. Please bear with me on this.

2. Here's my pitch so far about what players do in this game. They have a dream like the burning bush, they get 7 Certitudes and 3 Gifts of Truth, and an indigo flame burning in their eyes proves them to be judges, whether they are a proud and beautiful Ironfolk or a gruesome, masked Worm That Walks (I love Clark Ashton Smith, as you may have noticed). The Judges are followed by a tribe, exactly like Moses in the desert or Noah's family or Solomon's ministers. The players are important people, wondering from place to place with their tribe, mending the Shattering of the world. You'll notice that the last paragraph (GM's role) was strongly influenced by D. Vincent Baker's presentation of DITV, of course  :

There Were Worlds Before Ours
The Last Chronicles of Erdor tell tragic tales set in the last days of a world of horrifying beauty, consumed by She Who Devours All and her barbaric legions. Divided by their cultural differences, the eerie civilizations of Erdor struggle against the Theocracy of this abominable goddess even as secret societies corrupt them from within.
Erdor will fall, shatter and fade away into nothingness, for that is known, but something of it might still be saved by its last champions: the Judges of the Indigo Flame.

What is This Game About?
The central concept of this game rests onto a single question: What would you sacrifice to save your dying world?
This game is about confronting the inevitable death of the world, making moral choices and facing their tragic outcomes in a strange land of beauty and horror.
The players take on the role of the Judges of the Indigo Flame, prophets, warriors and healers from all peoples and nations. They were given power by the ENIGMA to restore the harmony of the universe by mending its Shattering. They wander the world as its end grows near, passing judgement on the wicked, saving the innocent from oppression and destroying the forces that serve the Shattering. The clash between the values cherished by the Judges, both cultural and personal, and their duty to save Erdor drives their adventures.
The role of the Game Master, in turn, is to challenge the players with hard moral dilemmas and their consequences, to frame poetic scenes and aggravate conflicts, driving up the stakes at every occasion. He imagines nations, communities, tribes and clans viciously torn by the Shattering, without thinking of a solution before hand.
The story belongs to the Judges. Once the situation is presented, the Game Master simply reacts to what the Judges do. His ultimate goal is to force heart-rending choices on the players: knowing their world is dying, how far will they go to preserve what they cherish the most?

Erick N. Bouchard © 2006. All rights reserved.

Hey Erick.

A couple of things first: Thanks for being so willing to share those illustrations, but you shouldn't actually post images in the Forums; links are fine, but don't embed graphics.  Second, you might just want to email Vincent yourself; he's a nice guy, and I'm certainly not trying to speak for him, but you might be surprised at what he has to say about your using his mechanics as a base of inspiration.

Also, since you started this thread, you have some say as to where it goes, content-wise; however, if you're not sure, just start a new thread about the connection of the your theme and system.

So, the pictures were actually really helpful, I thought, in illustrating the kind of world you have in mind; no Elves!, as the ads for Talislanta (or was it Jorune??) used to say...  The idea of Prophets leading tribes works really well with the kind of fallout you're talking about.  I sense, perhaps, some shades of Agone as well?  Yet another game that could probably be called oneiric.

I love the idea, much as I love it in Polaris, that the world is already doomed, it's a known fact, and what you're telling are the stories of the endtimes.  There's a pathos there that strikes a deep chord.  Plus, I don't think you can get much more French than the fact that part of the GM's responsibilites is "framing poetic scenes"!  Beautiful!

My only quibble in the game text you posted is that, as stated, you actually have two premises:

1. What would you sacrifice to save your dying world?

and

2. Knowing that your world is going to die, how far would you go to preserve what you cherish the most?

Of these two, I think the second is filled with a greater pathos (because hope is gone), and lends itself to a different, more subtle, series of heartrending choices.

Again, I'd love to read the whole three pages you were talking about earlier; if you're willing, just send it to akesher@gmail.com.

I also would be very interested in helping you out with the English versioin however I can!

Aaron

Thanks Aaron, and thanks everyone for the input.

Sorry for the thumbnails, I didn't thought they were invasive but I apologize for breaching etiquette. It wasn't voluntary.

I'll be replying to Aaron's suggestion by personal mail. Just for the record, Erdor doesn't have any elves (nor any quasi-elves) or orcs etc., but no humans at all too.

If anyone else is interested in what games the French may classify as "oneiric", here you have the Roleplayer's galactic guide (GROG) classification, in French :
http://www.roliste.com/themesjeux.jsp?id=16

Don't expect marvels, game mechanic wise. French RPGs tend to suffer from extreme linearity in scenarios, strong GM control and mechanics either based on Call of Cthulhu or Ars Magica. Settings, though, are often beautiful. Unfortunately I don't have much more to say on the topic... Most of these French "oneiric games" I find unplayable, except when players are passive spectators to the GM's story.

Cheers and thanks again everyone! It was very helpful. I don't mind discussing the "No Names" issue in this thread, but I'll leave the presentation of Erdor for another time, when I have more stuff to show in English.

Erick

That link should have been (French) :

http://www.roliste.com/themesjeux.jsp?id=16

Erick