Hello folks, I'm the fool doing the Thieves' supplement. Right now, we call it "The Riddle of Gold," but that's not what I want to talk about.

I want feedback from you. Is there something you want to see in it? I've already got lots of "thief" concepts (such as bounty hunters, robbers and assassins) and how to make them. I've got some skills, two modified thief skill packets, a few gifts and flaws, some pre-made characters, and a few adventure hooks. Anything else? Anything you want particularly stressed here? Speak your mind!

Mind speaking #1: I do not, under any circumstances want to see the RoS equivelent of the "Thieves Handbook". Thief "kits" dont' interest me and frankly I find the idea of thieves as a "profession" being both silly and done to death. If you want my oppinion: No thieves guild, no thieves cant, no secret signs, no packages containing "pick locks", and "pick pockets" and "hide in shadows", that sort of urban skulking ninja/secret agent character is largely myth anyway.

Mind speaking #2: What I WOULD be interested in seeing. Historical based research on the world of the outlaw and how one gets labeled as outside the law in the various Wyerth cultures. Sample outlaw communities where hardened thugs rub elbows with discharged soldiers with no other career, and good folks whose only crime was trying to feed their families by poaching on the kings lands. Essays on actual local peasant revolts which oftened had a core of these dispossessed people.

Other historical color like locks. Even in the 1800s locks were still pretty crude. What were they really like from medieval times through the age of enlightenment. How did shackles really function. What were common punishments for common crimes. If the combat rules are realistically gritty, I want to see the punishment of common thieves being equally gritty.

Historical law enforcement efforts. In the days before organized police forces who was responsible for rousting out the riff raff. I'm not interested in seeing some Thieves World-esque "town watch" nonsense. How are the sheriffs and constables appointed and what authority is vested in them. Are they the same people responsible for collecting taxes? What form does tax collection take, how is it handled and how is it paid (crime and tax collection go hand in hand...witness Robin Hood or the IRS).

What kind of trial or judgement could they expect, what kind of treatment were they afforded before and after conviction and how does that vary by region. If you see a man robbing your house can you simply kill him? What if he's of a higher social class than you? What recourse is available to common folk who have crimes committed against them...can they appeal to a higher authority.

What about canonical law. Do the clergy of Wyerth operate under different laws than the secular? How about other forms of crime like river piracy or Wreaking. Smuggling is as old as tariffs...whose smuggling what to where in Wyerth?



I know this sounds like alot...but to me, what seperates Riddle of Steel from d20 even more than the mechanics is the attitude towards realism and period fidelity. Truth be told, I have zero interest in a d20 guidebook converted to RoS game mechanics.

Lyrax wrote: I want feedback from you. Is there something you want to see in it? ...Speak your mind!

Valamir and Mike covered everything I could think of and more. Historicity is a good thing for tROS.

I will disagree a tad with the other posters and suggest you keep in mind that a bit of fantasy wouldn't be amiss in the supplement.

If there are ninja like characters in Weyerth cultures players will want to play them.
Especially considering how effective an ambush would be :)

While I do agree that the usually D&D thief types aren't appropriate in Weyerth there is one caveat.

Fafhd and the Grey Mouser have a very TROS feel about them, they are legitimate Fantasy archetypes that may inspire some TROS players. Silly Thieves Guild and all.

A mention of that wouldn't be amiss


Anthony

Thats a good point.
Even though its subtle and uncommon, magic really exists in Weyrth.
It would be useful to Pose and answer the question, "How would that change what happened historically?"

However, whatever exists needs to be grounded into the setting in a manner that is internally consistent. If something ninja-esque exists, there would need to explain where that came from.

on the rules end of things, I agree that skill packets, skills, and flaws would be nice. especially if they flow into the setting information well.

just to be clear about what this is supposed to be:

Is this a supplement to buy or something for the web-page?
Also, how does/should the answer to that question change the expectations and goals of The Riddle of Gold?

I'd have to say that I agree with the other posters here 100%. I would like to chime in on the subject of ninjas/hiding in shadows... info on that sort of char would be appropriate considering the existence of Tengoku (and other asian type places) in Weyrth. You'd have to be careful how you did it tho, and they'd surely be as rare as hen's teeth, but I dont see why they couldn't be around - particularly in the eastern part of the world. As for thieving as a job, I agree that it would be out of line with the feel of the world (aside from those who are just trying to survive). Then there are those who prefer to live that life. Why work for a living when you can slip you living out of other's purses?

"Thieve's Guilds" are a silly notion at any rate. What would make sense though is a description (and examples) of organized crime in Weyrth. This could draw on historical sources as well, I'm sure. Perhaps you could break it down by nation. Or perhaps the whole book could be divided into a section detailing all this stuff for each nation. A few chapters of general info, and a chapter for each "established" nation for those details specific to them.

Another suggestion for the book would be descriptions and examples of traps that one might encounter. I think everyone agrees that traps are a common item in fantasy settings, and they'd fit nicely in TROS. Especially in a book dedicated to thief-type characters. Maybe even rules for trap construction?

Well, that's my take on that.

Brandon

Hey y'all. I havent shown up in here for what...a day? Anyway, this is my take on the Riddle of Gold. I've read Lance (Meibos') intro and a bit of his outline, and I like it a lot (it's funny, at least). I originally saw it as being kindof a "thieves guild book" ala pre-D20 D&D, but after all of the posts in here I agree with y'all completely, and think that TROG could be Much, much more. Lance--you've got your work cut out for you.

As for the "Will this see print?" question, the answer is "only if Lance pays for the printing."

::grins wickedly::

The Riddle of Gold will be online (for a fee or for free I dunno...that depends more on Lance then on me, and on my take on its final quality).

Otherwise we'll be doing the Bestiary (we're looking for a good name for it) and Sorcery and the Fey first up, followed by The Flower of Battle. After that...we'll see.

Jake Norwood wrote: As for the "Will this see print?" question, the answer is "only if Lance pays for the printing."

::grins wickedly::

That's a feasible option IF I get over 500 orders (not going to happen at this stage of the game). Any less than that and it's too much money for too little return, especially considering the downpayment and the risk involved. It's not that I don't think that such a thing would sell (I think it would), but who's going to pay for the printing...Driftwood is operating with a serioiusly limited budget...we are an "indie" game company, despite the spiffy hardback. We can (and I'll ask all of you to) hope and pray that TROS pulls a starwars this fall and that suddenly Driftwood has the means to really drive stuff all over the place, but for now I'm thinking realistically, if optimistically. As long as things go well we'll have the Big Three supplements a'coming, plus PDFs online, and so on, as long as TROS is paying for itself.

A general note about publishing...it just doesn't pay well--or at all--on small levels. TROS is a labor of love for me, and its success exists to pay for itself, but not for my time (not yet, at least). I'm doing this 'cause I like it.

Jake

Hi there,

Couple of notes for consideration ...

1) The Thieves' Guild in Fritz Leiber's fiction was satirical - a deliberate slam on capitalism, or rather, corporatized capitalism. To think of it as a basic element of "fantasy setting" is a result of non-critical role-playing culture; to retrofit it into a setting in some kind of consistency-based way is ... well, perhaps an interesting exercise, but definitely an exercise.

2) I want to reinforce the point made about the "town watch" or "city watch." Such characters did not exist in the hard-and-gritty fantasy literature until the 1960s at the very earliest, when a lot of paler Conan imitations appeared. Some of these were tongue-in-cheek, such as Kothar the Barbarian (Gardner F. Fox); others were simply stupid imitations, such as anything written by Carter and deCamp (including "Conan" as they wrote him) and Brak the Barbarian (John Jakes).

"Law" as we understand it did not exist for much of human history. "Police" as we understand them barely exist even today, and are very recent even in our own country. The functional equivalents of these things, historically, were tied up very tightly with local power structures in ways that you and I would call "corrupt" from the get-go. Bluntly, if someone was paying you to steal X or kill someone, and if that someone owned a lot of stuff or a lot of land, you were legal. Theft and violence as crimes, by principle at the societally-enforced level, did not exist.

Given #1 and #2, I suggest that this supplement would do very well as kind of a wake-up call to traditional fantasy role-players, regarding thieves, assassins, and (huck ptoo!) ninja.

Functionally speaking, all the rules are already there - such activities and social roles may all be considered applications of violence, in some fashion, and answering "Why am I doing this?" is what the Riddle is all about.

Speaking in terms of content, I would be very interested in the distinction, for the major cultures of Weyrth, between (a) being outlawed or hunted in some way, and (b) doing or not doing honorable things. A and B are never entirely the same, and different peoples have different ways of coding and distinguishing between them.

Best,
Ron

Ron Edwards wrote:
"Law" as we understand it did not exist for much of human history. "Police" as we understand them barely exist even today, and are very recent even in our own country. The functional equivalents of these things, historically, were tied up very tightly with local power structures in ways that you and I would call "corrupt" from the get-go. Bluntly, if someone was paying you to steal X or kill someone, and if that someone owned a lot of stuff or a lot of land, you were legal. Theft and violence as crimes, by principle at the societally-enforced level, did not exist.

Valamir wrote: "theives" in such a setting would be the various outlaws and other dispossessed attempting to eke out a sustinence existance in the deep woods. To the extent they take to banditry and theivery it would not be cat burglars and swashbuckling highway men, but thugs, ambushers, and smugglers.

a....I have but one small remark on a theives book for ROS..........AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH...............NNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A little note on the city watch.

There were something called a city watch, altough its duty was to watch for fires during the hours of dark. In other words, they were more like firefighters. The law was upheld by the local garrison. If there is any crime going on, you call the guards, the guards arrive, they throw the offender in a prison to await trial. After trial the guy will be hanged, branded, freed, decapitated or whatever.
This was in the cities, mind you.
Since a lot of crime would probably scare away the traders, Valamirs statement about crime, rulers and productivity is true regarding cities as well, I guess.

Sorry I haven't been replying, but now that I have a job, I won't have to apply for jobs any more (thus freeing up more time than is taken by the actual work).

Rattlehead: Although I will try to keep to the style of ROS, I am a very different writer from Jake, Rick or Ben. My style, an ironic, sarcastic humor, does show through from time to time. In short, I don't think it will be ultra-grim, though it will be pretty gritty.