Okay, a while back Ron did a whole series of Sorcerer set-up threads, and they worked really well as a 'look under the hood' of one approach to setting up narrativist games, and the like.

What about doing one for Hero Wars? Big task I know, but I think there is a lot of people swimming around out in the internet void that grasp the system enough to realise it could be 'the one they they've been waiting for', but lack some of the detail to make the leap - either because the don't grasp the rules, the concept behind them or the grit of their application (or all three).

I was thinking less on the set-up but instead a write up of situations (whether played through or not, though stuff from actual play would be good), why they are good Hero Wars stories (thus dealing with the premise/setting issues) and how they played out in the rules (thus letting people into the mind of someone who has got to grips with the system).

Big task, but useful, anyone care to give it a go?

Ian,

GREAT suggestion. I'll be the GM guy. You be a player. Who else? Next two people, you're in. (And once there are two, everybody else back off!)

Best,
Ron

I've been looking at Hero Wars lately and would like to get a better idea how it works and what's going on. How can I help?

Lael

Ron Edwards wrote: GREAT suggestion. I'll be the GM guy. You be a player. Who else? Next two people, you're in. (And once there are two, everybody else back off!)

As someone who's toying with HW, if not Glorantha, I'd really appreciate seeing this.

I'd also like it to include an explanation of hero questing, how it works, what it means and most importantly why you'd want to do it. From my reading it seems like players get to go on a heroquest and follow about the most railroaded adventure ever, where even they know every step along the way... I must be missing something because I just don't see the appeal.

Andy,

So is you in or is you out? So far it's Ian and Lael. Say the word, and we have a Go.

Best,
Ron

Okay, I'll give it a go. I may need my hand holding along the way but I'd like to try.

AndyGuest wrote: Okay, I'll give it a go. I may need my hand holding along the way but I'd like to try.

One, two, three, hug!

OK, here's the drill. I have very little agenda in my head at the moment. I'll simply lay out some of the things about the setting that I find most engaging, and name some areas that I have always liked, as well as summarize some time periods.

Basic idea: the Empire to the north wants a path to the southern sea. Unfriendly geography (Dragon Pass) and uncooperative cultures are in the way.

The Lunar Empire: cross Roman policy with Persian look/feel; consider a variety of cultures unified loosely, over the last few centuries, by an evangelist and complex new religion (Sedenya, the Red Goddess). Lunars range from smug to missionary to plain old militaristic.

The Heortlings: Celtic + Icelandic + smidgeon of ancient Greek. Heortlings are cranky, feisty, and loud.

Places in Dragon Pass:
- Sartar proper, a set of cities, holy places, and clan-controlled areas connected by roads; includes the city of Boldhome.
- Heortland, more or less the southern extension of Sartar with more cultural diversity.
- Esrolia, another southern area/country with a heavily modified Heortling culture, far more matriarchal.
- the Grazelands, occupied by a horse/nomad culture with close ties to the Beast People of Dragon Pass.
- Black Horse County, one of the Lunar land grants, given to a westerner-fellow who commands a troop of demonic horses. He's gained respect in the area from the Heortlings.
- various nasty places like Shadow Plateau, an icky swamp with a necromancer in the middle of it, and the unspeakable Snake Pipe Hollow.

Time periods:
1600-1615 or so - pure politics. The Lunar Empire tightens its fist on Dragon Pass and, for all anyone can tell, seizes and crushes it. Playing a Heortling means defying or collaborating an inexorable, terrifying invading culture, and losing. Magic, at this time, kind of rumbles and mutters through the conflict without being central to it.

1616-1625 or so - think of this as the occupational period ... mainly characterized, interestingly enough, by cultural mixing. A whole generation of Heortlings grow up heavily Lunarized, but far more nationalistic (rather than clan-centric) than they ever were before. It is also more overtly magical - the Lunars rely on horrifically powerful, escalating myth-magic to secure their hold on the area, and it backfires when a dragon unearths itself and EATS half their fucking army.

1626-1631 or so - war, war, war. Mythic artifacts are retrieved from the Other Side, heroes develop and clash on a level no one has imagined for centuries. Think the Iliad. The really terrifying thing is that the gods seem to have been invoked into reality, thus replacing the politics with pure fixed dogma ... but as time goes on, it turns out that the people who are Heroquesting are actually reshaping the myths to mean new things. Over the next decades, this process results in one person, Argrath, actually redefining the very nature of godhood itself. (Argrath is not a fixed NPC - if you play in this period, your own character may turn out to be him.)

To start out: the Point of Play is to generate your own Hero Band, which may be thought of as a political special interest group, perhaps primarily violent or military in nature but perhaps not, with a unique mystic/magical totem or "schtick." Yes, we create this in play. Your characters are, by definition, among the first people in Glorantha to define their religion by their values, instead of the other way around. That's what "hero wars" means.

Player/group decisions:

1) When and where? Any "where" is OK by me, but I happen to find the "middle" time period most interesting, myself, and much of Hero Wars published material is focused at that point.

2) What mix of peoples constitute the right choices for player-characters? Heortlings only, Lunars only, or mixed? Other people (Grazers, Black Horsers, etc)? What sort of Heortlings and Lunars (healthy diversity in each)? I'd prefer to avoid non-human player-characters.

3) Think just a bit about mobility and scope ... are we thinking about characters who travel all about as a unified group, or more of a place-specific situation? No need really to decide, just consider a bit. Remember that the "wandering adventurer" effectively does not exist in Glorantha.

My input? I like the Lunars more than most people do. I like the idea of Lunar and Heortling value-systems being forced to work together, generating, through play, a synthesis (middle-ground or extreme, doesn't matter) that can be the basis of a unique Hero Band.

Discuss. I'd like to take at least a couple of days for this stage of prep, so people can look at the maps in the books and muse through the HW material.

Best,
Ron

Okay, so for my poor addled brain (and distinct lack of Glorantha knowledge), to draw a real world comparison the first period could be thought of as like the expansion of the roman empire and the second as akin to a period of occupation/colonisation by the romans ? (and the third has no real world equivalent !)

The middle period looks fine to me. Looks like a time when there would be much to do and a good place to start a story.

I would prefer a mix of peoples in the group. To some degree it facilitates the presentation of the larger conflicts within a smaller setting.

I would be happy with something place-specific. Since I don't have a good knowledge of Glorantha, it would be easier for me to get to know a single location well rather than try to keep up with the changing scenery.

I don't know if you are soliciting for character ideas yet, but from what I've read of the books so far, I would be interested in playing either a Lunar Sorcerer or a ... grr, can't remember the name ... Shaman of the Wolf Tribe (can't remember the name of the Wolf People or the kind of Animist they are, and I was just looking over that section earlier this week.)

As for a specific location, I would imagine that one of the more central locations: Sartar, Heortland, or Esrolia would suit the Lunar character better, while something closer to his home would suit the Shaman better. But that is just my initial impressions. Once I have the chance to get to my books and look over the other information that I have available, I may think differently.

Lael

Andy,

Well, we're talking about a pretty short time-period, so think of these thirty years or so as the final spasm of cultural conflict - contact, wars, and tentative occupations have actually been going on for centuries; this is pretty much that moment when the conflict really is going to go one way or the other (or more properly, synthesize in a way that changes everything, forever).

Lael (and others),

Let's get more specific in terms of locale? Right there in Dragon Pass (Sartar, Black Horse County, Grazelands)? South (Esrolia, Heortland)? Which specific place? No need to "know it all," just pick what sounds most interesting based on my description above. Or ask more questions about any of them that seem interesting.

Best,
Ron

Ian,

You wrote,
Ideally, this would have a slant on actual implementation of the rules in play - easy for me to say, as I have actually no idea how you would accomplish that on the forum.

At the moment, it may look as if I'm spending more time on group prep than on rules-situations, but trust me - we need this kind of shared emotional context in order to get into the rules at all.

Especially for Heroquesting. Just you guys wait.

Best,
Ron

I’ll scan through my Hero Wars book tonight – though that is the only reference I have. Initially I viewed this as a disadvantage, but thinking about it I’m now confident it is an advantage – as I can then encounter the setting through my character, the protagonist, rather than bogging him or her down in simulationist baggage.

So, I’m setting ignorant compared to Ron – good thing.

My initial thoughts, since I have the time now, is to go for a mixed group which would probably demand the middle period – or at least it is the most accommodating of such factors. I also like to explore some of the issues in terms of magic in Hero Wars – both in terms of how it is described and approached, and implemented in actual play by the rules. The second period has a higher magical element.

As for location – any would be fine with me – I do find myself erring on the side of having a location element, in the sense that we are not wondering. A bad analogy would be Deep Space Nine rather the Next Generation. The location could be important, a character in itself, part of the myth we create. Not sure, may be talking shite.

Ian,

Not shite at all, you're right on target. Unless Andy disagrees, it looks as if a site-specific, about-the-place approach is what we're developing.

Check out the maps here, and if you have it, see the map in the Glorantha HW book (it's the best Dragon Pass map ever). Don't get hung up on trying to learn the maps; just find the places I've mentioned and that's enough.

Best,
Ron

Ron Edwards wrote: Lael (and others),

Let's get more specific in terms of locale? Right there in Dragon Pass (Sartar, Black Horse County, Grazelands)? South (Esrolia, Heortland)? Which specific place? No need to "know it all," just pick what sounds most interesting based on my description above. Or ask more questions about any of them that seem interesting.

Damn. Looks like I was a day late and a dollar short. Ron, please remind me, do you want any (reasonably limited) outside commentary or questions on this process, or should any non-player reactions, questions, etc. go to another thread?

Best,

Blake

I hope you don't mind if I kibbitz on this one --- I am hoping to set up a HW game when I get back to Toronto, so this would be a useful exercise.

(sorry about the posting problem, I slipped on the keys)

I like the Grazelanders -- they remind me of the Scythians or the Huns, so if there were room for both Heortlings and a Horse Nomad that would be nice.

The rider would be torn between his barbarian freedoms and the seductive lure of a wealthy and powerful civilization. He might be caught between the solar pantheon of the Dara Happans and some vague allegiance to the liberty offered by the storm god. He would also have to decide if the beastmen (to whom he is somewhat allied) are being left behind by the tides of history or if the close relationship of man and beast can be maintained in the new world.

- Sartar proper, a set of cities, holy places, and clan-controlled areas connected by roads; includes the city of Boldhome.

1616-1625 or so - think of this as the occupational period ... mainly characterized, interestingly enough, by cultural mixing. A whole generation of Heortlings grow up heavily Lunarized, but far more nationalistic (rather than clan-centric) than they ever were before. It is also more overtly magical - the Lunars rely on horrifically powerful, escalating myth-magic to secure their hold on the area

Hello,

Blake, et al., all comments from anyone are welcome. However, not so much as in terms of preferences, just in questions and comments. For creative/example purposes, Lael, Ian, Andy, and I are the "group."

Details ...

- Yes, Telmori are the wolf-tribe (werewolves, essentially) in question. They're fairly difficult to work with, as they seem to have been variously screwed by their own Heortling culture as well as by the Lunars, at different times. Telmori characters have probably learned the hard way that they have to make highly individualized choices. I have no objection to a shaman character, although such a character tends to be very tightly linked to a given clan or community. Note that Telmori are hsunchen, in that they integrate animal spirits in a totemic fashion.

- Lael's location suggestion works for me. Note that we would be doing very canonical Glorantha play, as this was Stafford's group's stomping grounds in the 1970s and has some detailed maps available. That's OK by me, just letting you know. If we were to do (say) Black Horse County instead, we'd be "freer," but this way, we have more immediate source material with both the advantages and disadvantages we're all familiar with. (On the other hand, it would mean fun with Dragonewts, which is something I've dreamed of since high school.)

- Grazers are cool. I see them as one of the casualties of the Hero Wars; their young men and women are going to be swept up in the larger clashes around them for sure. Their skills will be very useful to the Sartarites, who are frankly for shit in mounted combat; their chiefs, by contrast, will be very tempted by Lunar offerings of treaties ... and note that the sun-spirit religion of the Grazers may find meaningful parallels from the Celestially-oriented Dara Happan missionaries. (epweissengruber's points are valid here, definitely)

- For everyone, think Bronze Age, Bronze Age. People don't travel very far from their homelands unless they're Lunar soldiers or traders or missionaries. "Society" and "country" are very vague concepts, as opposed to one's clan or immediate community. "War" was, to a Heortling, some kind of "big feud" and its scope, as brought to them in the fall of Boldhome in 1602, was world-view-shattering.

Best,
Ron

Ron Edwards wrote:
- Yes, Telmori are the wolf-tribe (werewolves, essentially) in question. They're fairly difficult to work with, as they seem to have been variously screwed by their own Heortling culture as well as by the Lunars, at different times. Telmori characters have probably learned the hard way that they have to make highly individualized choices. I have no objection to a shaman character, although such a character tends to be very tightly linked to a given clan or community. Note that Telmori are hsunchen, in that they integrate animal spirits in a totemic fashion.

Ron Edwards wrote:
- Lael's location suggestion works for me. Note that we would be doing very canonical Glorantha play, as this was Stafford's group's stomping grounds in the 1970s and has some detailed maps available. That's OK by me, just letting you know. If we were to do (say) Black Horse County instead, we'd be "freer," but this way, we have more immediate source material with both the advantages and disadvantages we're all familiar with. (On the other hand, it would mean fun with Dragonewts, which is something I've dreamed of since high school.)

Lael,

Telmori shaman or Lunar sorcerer. Just hold those as your faves, without choosing. Let's have Ian and Andy talk about what they might want, and it might be a bit before that happens. No need to rush.

About the Dragonewts, I was talking about the location you suggested. A certain emphasis on Draconic secrets and weirdness would be a neat aspect of play, as long as my preferences are being aired. (I got a pretty good dose of troll stuff from my last game, for instance, so I am not all psyched about them at the moment.)

Best,
Ron

Not a complaint, just an observation, but I think the last few posts have summed up why a number of people have problems with Glorantha. It was like a quick and fast burst of information (regarding the immediate locale of the game) that it leaves you reeling, and with a feeling you have cards missing from your deck!

I'm quite happy with all the suggested region with a few comments. On the positive side I love the idea of the Draconic weirdness - I think that is a brilliant idea. At the same time the only two cultures I even remotely have a handle on are the Heortlings and the Lunas - and I think (remember I don’t have a full deck of cards here) we've just been put in a territory that has cultures that just make say: whah? Not a problem, but something to keep in mind during the course of the threads development.

Since we have graduated into rough concepts for the game - I would add that in terms of the location being important I would think it would be cool if the location was important above and beyond the fact it is the home of our characters, or currently a political hot property. Is it important because of a mystical site? Or the site of a great myth?

I certainly think the mystery element is favoured over politics from my perspective - especially if these factors combine with relationship keywords in numerous ways (which I assume is the whole point of the Hero Wars game).

Final note, my post rate may be slower than everyone else.

Ian O'Rourke wrote: Not a complaint, just an observation, but I think the last few posts have summed up why a number of people have problems with Glorantha. It was like a quick and fast burst of information (regarding the immediate locale of the game) that it leaves you reeling, and with a feeling you have cards missing from your deck!

Ian O'Rourke wrote: I'm quite happy with all the suggested region with a few comments. On the positive side I love the idea of the Draconic weirdness - I think that is a brilliant idea. At the same time the only two cultures I even remotely have a handle on are the Heortlings and the Lunas - and I think (remember I don't have a full deck of cards here) we've just been put in a territory that has cultures that just make say: whah? Not a problem, but something to keep in mind during the course of the threads development.

Ian O'Rourke wrote: Final note, my post rate may be slower than everyone else.

Ron Edwards wrote: Lael,

Telmori shaman or Lunar sorcerer. Just hold those as your faves, without choosing. Let's have Ian and Andy talk about what they might want, and it might be a bit before that happens. No need to rush.

Ron Edwards wrote: About the Dragonewts, I was talking about the location you suggested. A certain emphasis on Draconic secrets and weirdness would be a neat aspect of play, as long as my preferences are being aired. (I got a pretty good dose of troll stuff from my last game, for instance, so I am not all psyched about them at the moment.)

I put together my ideas after perusing the map, and what I remember from playing King of Dragon Pass ... so even if we are in a "well-travelled" zone, so what ... it's ours now.

2 grazer postings, 2 duck point mentions: sounds good so far.

Black Horse County might be fun, but its our Glorantha, so the participants must go wild.

It would be a good learning experience to transform a well-known place into a very particular place for a set of gamers.

Hey epweissengruber,

I thought we'd both been clear on this ... you do realize that you're not part of the "group" who's doing the exercise? As with Blake and whoever else, all your comments and observations are welcome, but you're not part of the decision-making circle for the pseudo-game in question.

The use of "we" in your post made me a bit nervous about this issue.

Best,
Ron

The middle time does sound most interesting to me. I have no objections to the discussed location and fun with dragonnewts.

Character-wise, well I'm just off to bed with the books to see what jumps out at me. I've got some loose thoughts in my head about someone who is a son of a conquered tribe, or maybe a tribe that chose to join the Lunars rather than fight against them. I like the idea of a chieftan's son who was too young to fight against (or even with) the Lunars and has come of age questioning his father's decisions.

Hmm, gonna go read the books and see how/if that can fit.

Andy,

That sounds like a good set of ideas to take to the books. As I recall, the Grazer or Heortling character creation rules will be just fine for your concepts.

Folks, feel free to post all you want, but I'll be returning to the discussion tomorrow at the earliest.

Best,
Ron

Fingers moving faster than brain, apologies Ron

Sorry for stepping on toes

I retreat behind rock and spy ...

I'll keep this short. Neat process. Ron's done a good job of collapsing the pertinent world points to identifiable choices, none too complex. I've always liked the low-key Lunar Missionary or the Taraltaran mystic as starting point concepts, but the Heortling foederati idea has a lot of inherent conflict, which is my favorite of the ideas so far. The Grazer and Telmori are also appealing. The Lunar Sorcerer, too, is a nifty trope. Lots of good stuff here.

I'm curious to see how a really polyglot group coheres in actual play. You want to avoid the "ninja, dwarven chimney sweep, and giant red dragon" feel to groups. Running characters from a wide variety of cultures can be tricky unless care is taken to make sure there's a common nucleus around which the characters can orbit (and I don't mean the Bobby G. variety).

Best,

Blake