Topic: Getting My Feet Wet -- 'Capes in the Wasteland'
Started by: Turbo
Started on: 8/27/2006
Board: First Thoughts
On 8/27/2006 at 5:57pm, Turbo wrote:
Getting My Feet Wet -- 'Capes in the Wasteland'
Lo, after overloading my geek batteries (in the good way) at GenCon, an idea has grabbed a hold of me and refuses to let go. It's bad enough that my momentum on the novel I'm writing has been flagging.
The basic setup is this: "Capes in the Wasteland" -- Post-Apocalyptic America in a world that had a fairly familiar history of supers. A vast conspiracy of villains simultaenously execute their plans, destroying the infrastructure of society. Cities crumble, armies torn apart, and the counrty is left in shambles. 10-ish years later, traveling groups of heroes old and new help inspire the survivors to re-build their communities, fighting old villains, new tyrants, and above all, despair. In a world that has relied on heroes to solve their big problems for sixty years, some people need to be inspired, to be lead, before they can get back on their feet. The player-characters are these supers, helping push and pull people up a ladder of virtue.
The idea came about due doing the following things in close succession: Reading Capes, playing in a post-apocalyptic Buffy/Angelverse LARP, and getting excited about Dogs in the Vineyard and The Princes' Kingdom.
I've got a thread about in the lumpley games forum, as a DitV modification/alternate setting, but as I've developed the idea, I think it might be better as its own game, which would bring it into the purview of 'First Thoughts,' to my understanding.
Here's the thread: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=21115.0
These are my specific quesitons:
Does this sound like something workable?
How far does it have to go from the DitV mold to become its own thing and not just a homebrew mod?
Can a supers world go post-apocalyptic and retain the compelling aspects of superheroes?
Can you get excited about this concept? What would you want to see covered, mechanics/setting-wise?
Would a game that encouraged PCs to empower others in doing important things rob players of the agency they're used to and sabotage the fun, or does the idea of playing characters that are catalysts for change in others ring true as something viable for an RPG?
I'm also thinking of including some element which allowed for players to engage with the townspeople they meet in some kind of fashion of 'claiming' or working to make the players able to help use/influence the other characters as an implicit part of the system. (Either as simple as using 'Pastor Richards Has the People's Ears 1d8' like a trait in Dogs, or something far different. Does that sound viable/intersting?
Forge Reference Links:
Topic 21115
On 8/28/2006 at 11:47am, Ken wrote:
Re: Getting My Feet Wet -- 'Capes in the Wasteland'
Turbo wrote:
Does this sound like something workable?
Sure. There are plenty of superhero games with their own built-in history/setting; Aberrant, Brave New World, UNSanctioned, Godlike, and Nemesis come to mind. I think these games cater to a smaller audience than generic open-ended rpgs that enforce fewer setting contrains (Champions, Villains & Vigilantes, Mutants & Masterminds, etc.), but that doesn't diminish their importance to the genre.
Turbo wrote:
How far does it have to go from the DitV mold to become its own thing and not just a homebrew mod?
If I'm reading your question right, your idea is a mod for as long as you use DitV as a rules engine. I don't know how many words you have to change before DitV becomes CitW
Turbo wrote:
Can a supers world go post-apocalyptic and retain the compelling aspects of superheroes?
Absolutely. This is what I love about your idea. Though I normally don't groove on people trying to reinvent the superhero, I think your idea has some great possiblities. I'm seeing this as a kind of second Golden Age'; heroes in an environment like this become more iconic and can seem like modern-day titans than people with powers. Who needs a secret ID (who can afford one, when most people only have set of clothes to wear)?
Turbo wrote:
Can you get excited about this concept? What would you want to see covered, mechanics/setting-wise?
Though I would never suggest not focusing on super powers when developing rules for a superhero game, I think there is a need for developing a system for social significance here. Power rules could stand to be secondary-ish here; enough to create your favorite hero concepts but lighter rules to keep it from overpowering the game. I thought Risus Supers was a cool attempt, though maybe you may want a bit more from your power rules set.
These characters are going to start popping up amidst the chaos and start changing the world, so there may need to be some mechanics here. What motivates the character? How does the hero classicially go about effecting their changes (by promoting cooperation, instilling fear, etc.)? Does the heroes past success or reputation make it easier to effect future changes?
Turbo wrote:
Would a game that encouraged PCs to empower others in doing important things rob players of the agency they're used to and sabotage the fun, or does the idea of playing characters that are catalysts for change in others ring true as something viable for an RPG?
It sunds like there will still be conflict and challenges for heroes; who's going to be inspired by a hero who can't make a town safe for its people? While I wouldn't turn it into Civ or anything, there could be traits that a hero can share with the town they're in that make it a better place to live (and more dangerous should the character leave). Ha! maybe you could quantify types of trouble (small crimes and stuff have a low number, while organized crime and super villains have a higher number) and the level of crime a city has can't be lower than the reigning hero(es) whatever rating. Just a thought that popped in my head.
Thats all the time I've got. May chime in later. Good Luck. Keep it up. Hope it helped.
On 8/28/2006 at 5:28pm, Hans wrote:
RE: Re: Getting My Feet Wet -- 'Capes in the Wasteland'
Turbo, is it your intent to simply use Capes (the RPG by Tony LB from Muse of Fire) for this purpose, to somehow mod Capes to be more supportive of post-apocalyptic gaming, or to make a new game entirely that perhaps draws on Capes and Dogs for inspiration?
I have a lot to say on the first option above, but won't bother if your real intent is option 2 or 3. To option 2, I guess my answer would be that I'm not sure any modification to Capes is necessary for anything you describe other than a well thought out Comics Code, and some discussion among the players. On option 3, other than to say the basic premise seems like a lot fun, but I'm not sure what you feel other exisiting game systems are missing that should be there to support the premise. If you could elaborate on what you perceive as flaws/shortcomings/etc. to, say, Capes, in supporting what you want, it would be helpful.
On 8/28/2006 at 5:51pm, Turbo wrote:
RE: Re: Getting My Feet Wet -- 'Capes in the Wasteland'
The correlation in names here is somewhat troublesome. The name 'Capes in the Wasteland' is more closely related to being a riff on 'Dogs in the Vineyard,' with 'Capes' serving as an appelation for superheroes.
While the idea did come about in close proximity to reading Capes, my original conception was more focused on the rules of Dogs in the Vineyard and the questions of adapting to a new setting and the system changes that would be necessary to do so.
Now, I'm leaning more towards building my own system, inspired by Dogs and probably Capes as well as lots of other things, but as its own creature. In reading the Stakes-setting threads here and at StoryGames, I'm going to have to think long and hard about what form I want the character's ability to interface with the settlements and the manner in which the players and the GM/DM/ST figure dictate task/conflict resolution.
I do think some of the elements of Capes will be important to consider, especially Exemplars for what they represent to heroes and the way characters interact with Exemplars. Hans, do you have any experience with Capes as per Exemplars that you might be able to share as to how you found the mechanics useful for producing compelling interactions between heroes and their Exemplars?
On 8/28/2006 at 6:51pm, Hans wrote:
RE: Re: Getting My Feet Wet -- 'Capes in the Wasteland'
Turbo wrote:
I do think some of the elements of Capes will be important to consider, especially Exemplars for what they represent to heroes and the way characters interact with Exemplars. Hans, do you have any experience with Capes as per Exemplars that you might be able to share as to how you found the mechanics useful for producing compelling interactions between heroes and their Exemplars?
Much clearer now, Turbo, thanks.
Exemplars in Capes are more about building regular, rather than compelling, interactions. Exemplars are a way to provide incentives for certain "story business" to occur with some frequency. Exemplars can be written to be very compelling, but they can also be dull as all get out.
As you know, whenever a character and its exemplar are in a scene together, either of the players playing those characters can play a particular conflict (goal or event) for free. This is roughly the equivalent of given a person an extra turn, mechanically. Since that conflict is always the same conflict, it is a way of providing an incentive to revisit this particular relationship with some frequency. An example from the book is perfect: Liz is Captain Liberty's Love exemplar, with the free conflict that can be played "Event: Liz is about to die". By making this relationship, we are not only saying that Liz and Captain Liberty are important to each other, but also that this relationship frequently invovles danger to Liz.
Additionally, because the Comics Code usually prevents the root conflict between the Characters from ever being resolved it provides an incentive to all the players to play conflicts that try to tamper with this conflict, via the Gloating rules. For the above two characters, the root conflict might be something like "Captain Liberty loves Liz, but cannot reveal his love without making her the target of his enemies" or similar. I play a conflict "Goal: Liz forces Captain Liberty to say he loves her"; I know this can't ever happen, but I (or someone else) might be able to reap some story tokens from it.
Here is another example that gives some indication of what exemplars are very useful for; if I were ever going to play a Capes game based on early Fantastic Four, there would definitely have to be an exemplar relationship between Johnny Storm and Ben Grimm; Johnny would be Ben's Truth Exemplar, with a root conflict of something like "Ben really does like Johnny, but Johnny keeps on reminding Ben, in rude ways, just how monstrous he is now", and with the free conflict worded something like "Event: Ben loses his temper at Johnny" or similar. Almost every issue of the '60's vintage FF involves such an occurence. And, like those old FF comics, the first few times Ben loses his temper is great fun, but after a while it starts to get old, and then downright absurd; heck, Reed had to build the furniture in the Baxter Building out of titanium alloy and asbestos!
Whether that incentive for regular interaction is something you want or not I don't know. I'm not sure how an equivalent would be set up in the absence of the very formal conlict rules in Capes (with the index cards, etc.) and very formal reward mechanisms (that allow things like Gloating). It could be that Heroquest's relationship mechanics or Fate's Aspects provide a looser, more adaptable method for implementing relationships between people into the game mechanics.