Hello everyone.  I am new to the Forge and sort of new to the hobbie.  I don't know if there are anyone like me, but let me say a little about myself.  I say I am "new" to the hobbie and in most respect this is true, but it is a little more complicated than that.  I had been following RPGs for years ever since I discovered the term used in this context while browsing online (I played video games, and I am from an Asian background.  The concept of Paper & Pen RPG was new to me.  In fact, back then, it took me a while to understand why there were no screenshots of any kind or info about which console the game is on.  That game I remember was Mekton Zeta).  This was many years ago, perhaps 1995 or so.

I have since then learned a lot more.  I had been following product releases and read some source books even.  I know some things about D&D, Shadowrun, White Wolf stuff, GURPS, to stuff like Paranoia, UA, Cyberpunk2020 and other more obscure systems.  It seems though, in my area, people only play mainstream stuff (RPG=D&D and some Vampire; miniature game automatically = WH40K and more recently includes WarMachine, CCG=only Magic).

Despite this, I seemed to have emerged as a more or less Indy guy compared to others, knowing games that most players never heard of.  I am often surprised that nobody knows Netrunner CCG; or for RPGs, nobody knew Fudge.  At most, people claim "they heard of it but know nothing about it"; I roughly translate that to "didn't know it existed".

That being said, I have never actually played any RPG beyond Play by post D&D and NWN DMed sessions.  I am a RPGer who never played an actual game, yet I already tire of the more mainstream stuff without actually playing them.

Till a few days ago, the most Indie game I considered actually playing was Fudge/FATE.  Since no one runs these, I will have to be GM.  But knowing that I have no gaming experience, I am a little overwhelmed by the Fudge system.  I am not sure I can run it at all.  But then, a few days ago I discovered these wonderful Indie games that are even more Indie than Fudge is, and even more inspired than I thought Fudge was.  Instead of a freeform system that plays more or less like a traditional RPG, games like Breaking the Ice, Mortal Coil, PTA are barely RPGs in the traditional sense.

I am determined now to get myself at least 2 of these wonderful games.  Since from what I have read, a lot of these are GM-lite, which should in a sense help me practice.  But then, what do I know?I'm planning on getting either Breaking the Ice or Shooting the Moon.  I am leaning towards StM because of its relatively competitiveness.  The high concept is unique AND provides for great drama.

BUT, I'll be running a game (for the first time) with people who have no prior experience with RPG (completely no experience).  I am wondering how I will be able to guide other newbies into playing when I myself am little more than a newbie?  Can someone please give me so advice on this?  (And as I have knowledge of RPGs, don't worry about my not understanding some terms.  I'll understand you most likely).

Thank you for your help.

Also, I am wondering where I should post a post like this for Indie games in general?  Like say, I want to post the similar questions outside of BtI or StM... but questions for Mortal Coil, DotV and PTA?  Is there a general forum for this?

Hi Xenoss,

Welcome to the Forge!  My name is Emily. I wrote Breaking the Ice and Shooting the Moon.  Thanks for your questions. I will do my best to guide you.  What is your name?

BUT, I'll be running a game (for the first time) with people who have no prior experience with RPG (completely no experience).  I am wondering how I will be able to guide other newbies into playing when I myself am little more than a newbie?  Can someone please give me so advice on this?

Also, I am wondering where I should post a post like this for Indie games in general?  Like say, I want to post the similar questions outside of BtI or StM... but questions for Mortal Coil, DotV and PTA?  Is there a general forum for this?

Thank you very much for your reply, Emily.  My name is Wilson.

I did some research last night and downloaded some AP recorded sessions; I am going to have a listen to them to get some idea on how PTA, Polaris and Dogs are ran.  That should give me an idea on how these sort of narrative games are supposed to be like.  I couldn't find any for BtI or StM though.  Having read the AP for the Stalingrad game you ran a few days ago had me very excited about the possible sorts of stories that can emerge from StM; from the posted APs I get the stories and sort of the flow, but lack the details on the actual play sessions and what the players say/do.  I guess having no previous experience play experience puts me off a little.  Do you know of any recorded BtI or StM sessions out there?

I am drawn to the indie games after I listened to some podcasts and discovered they exist.  I guess I am drawn to these games because they are totally the sort of game I am looking for; story and interaction are the focus, with little to no book keeping of stats and D&D style dice resolution of "hit or miss and how much damage".  Also, most of these systems seem to breed interesting and dynamic characters and interactions as a sort of built in mechanic of the game, this interest me a lot as well.

The problem though, is that I will be playing with people who have absolutely no prior experience with RPGs.  Perhaps this is a good thing in a sense, since they are not going to be confused by preconceptions stemming from traditional RPGs.  But on the bad side, I am a bit worried that we will sit around the table not knowing what to do.  Say for example, resolving a situation (in any game) may require the player to create and narrate, but the player doesn't know what to say (because she can pretty much do it any way she wants, it could be overwhelming).  I dont think StM would have as much problems here if I run a generic modern love story, plus the character traits pretty much guides them in creating the scene.  But I worry I may be a bit too confident about this... those potential players I have are not exactly creative, and are known to sit there saying "err......" when put on the spot.

I guess I am afraid of running a dull game and turning everyone off; killing the chances of drawing them in.  I am almost dead set on using StM as the gateway game, so I really want to be sure I know what I am doing first.

I'm going to run the game using some older rules.  Though I am going to buy StM from IPR.  I am a student with no budget so I can get only 1 other game with StM.  I would still need to pay shipping (since I live in Canada... sigh), but at least it would seem better to pay shipping for 2 books instead of just the one.  I am deciding between Mortal Coil, Roach and Polaris.  Any advice on that?

In addition to PTA which I cannot get from IPR... but shipping only cost $3 for PTA.... where it is $10 on IPR for one book.

I am going to try a StM trial run with just 1 player tomorrow to see what I need to work on (or if I can run it at all).  I don't feel right asking for help without having tried and with specific questions in mind; otherwise, what I'd be asking is "teach me everything I need to know" and that's just not very reasonable.

Hi Wilson,

I did some research last night and downloaded some AP recorded sessions; I am going to have a listen to them to get some idea on how PTA, Polaris and Dogs are ran.

I am drawn to the indie games after I listened to some podcasts and discovered they exist.  I guess I am drawn to these games because they are totally the sort of game I am looking for; story and interaction are the focus, with little to no book keeping of stats and D&D style dice resolution of "hit or miss and how much damage".  Also, most of these systems seem to breed interesting and dynamic characters and interactions as a sort of built in mechanic of the game, this interest me a lot as well.

I am going to try a StM trial run with just 1 player tomorrow to see what I need to work on (or if I can run it at all).  I don't feel right asking for help without having tried and with specific questions in mind; otherwise, what I'd be asking is "teach me everything I need to know" and that's just not very reasonable.

That would be excellent, Emily.  Thank you very much for your offer.  Playing the game with the creator isnt something one can pass on (especially for one such as myself, who doesn't get to attend conventions; a pain of living in Canada).

I tried explaining the rules to my sister (whom I planned to try StM with).  She seems to be able to understand the rules and basic structure of the game.  Though she expressed fears of drawing blank on the spot when she has to make up a scene.  She also brought to my attention a mechanic that I didn't quite understand myself, which is the endgame portion of activating the dice pools.

Hi Wilson,

I tried explaining the rules to my sister (whom I planned to try StM with).  She seems to be able to understand the rules and basic structure of the game.  Though she expressed fears of drawing blank on the spot when she has to make up a scene.  She also brought to my attention a mechanic that I didn't quite understand myself, which is the endgame portion of activating the dice pools.

I have tried running StM with her; it is late so we only got through the first round, but I have at least experienced it now.  I am more confident about playing/running, it turned out both easier and harder than I thought.  I also have some trouble understanding the rules from the draft, but I am sure they will be clear once I get the book (and if not I can ask you here).

I have half an AP.

Setting:  Based on a TV show we love.  This is done so we don't have to write extensively about the setting during game set up since we both know the setting well enough.  It is a foreign show about Vampires, sort of like Buffy/Angel.

Beloved:  A Buffy type girl who's family had been fighting supernatural threats every generation.  She is the last of her bloodline.  Their family had been trying to slay the first vampire (a Caine sort of figure).  Her traits: Beautiful, Brave, Emotionally Strong, Compassionate, Skillful, Loved by Friends.  Her opening: She is trying to find a good student capable of helping her and continuing her family's skills/knowledge in case something happens to her.  Her obstacle we set as: Duty to fight supernatural beings.

Female Suitor 1 (my sister):
Weak willed but protective of her family.
Pretty but her face lacks character.
Unskilled but hardworking.
Sympathetic but naive.
Person: A little brother who is very ill.
Place: The apartment building she lives in (same as the Beloved)
Thing: An artifact that once belonged to the Beloved's family (suggesting some connection).
Conflict:  her sick little brother requires her care and attention.

Male Suitor 2 (me):
Willful but openminded.
Ugly but stands out
Knowledgeable but doesn't like to help others
Cold but respectful of his elders
Person: Main villain of the show (who is a vampire and chairman of his corporation)
Place: "Red River Valley" (where the main villain and his rival were bit by "Caine" long ago in WWII.  We figured, Suitor 2 is a descendant of 1 of Villain's soldiers.  But I don't know if Place should be used this way now that I think about it.  This is more like mentioning a Person, a grandpa who served as a soldier.  Perhaps I should change that to Suitor 2 have visited there or something?)
Thing: Laptop computer.
Conflict: Working for main villain.

Goal:  To become the Beloved's student/sidekick.

Some issues during this process:
Like I said, in retrospect, my character's Place seems more like I am mentioning a Person.  Is this how we should be doing it?  How much detail are we supposed to go into Person/Place/Thing?  Do we simply need to put something there without really going into story justifications (like how we tried to explain how my character is related to the Red River Valley, and why Suitor 1 has an artifact that once belonged to the Beloved.  Or are these things we can justify during narration)?

We also had some trouble with Buts.  Some conditions we thought up seem to have nothing to do with the attribute (it looked more like an extra attribute attached to an existing one with a But.)

The setting word web we didnt do, since we can add anything we want anyway during play and we both know the setting well enough to know what should be there.

Suitor 2 went first, because my sister didn't want to go first after all.

S2 is having a drink at The Waiting Bar (a place in the show).  He knew the Beloved would eventually show up since she frequents there.  When she showed up, S2 approached her and starting chatting with her, just a normal conversation.  (I think I didnt do very good here, since I didn't really put into play any attributes and this ended up being a normal "chat her up" scene... very empty and against the spirit of the rules.  No wonder it felt so dry at the time.) So S2 started talking about her duty and about vampires, showing her that he is "in the know". My sister stepped in with a hurdle: Villain's men showed up, telling S2 that he wants to see him.  My sister surprised me here with a very nice hurdle; to think I was worried about her drawing blank... turns out I am the one who didn't do very well.  So now, I am exposed as being 1 of the Villain's men and on top of that, this is pushing me out of the scene.

My response is a little clunky.  I am not sure if I did it right... a lot of my reasoning seem to be a bit of a stretch:
I used Willful but openminded (mainly just being Willful):  S2 admits to his ties with a confident straight face, "Yes, I work for him."  "So what, does that faze you?", here I am using the Beloved's Brave trait, my reasoning is that this sounds like a challenge to her and she isn't going to back down so easily.  And finally, my 3rd response: S2 leaves with the men since he is cold but respectful of his elders.  Again, I feel as if I did it wrong, since I say S2 is leaving without a fuss and how does that advance his goal of making her accept me?  Perhaps I should have said S2 attempts to fight these men and expresses he doesn't blindly follow instructions (is using Willful twice allowed?  or perhaps I can sort of justify it with the trait Knowledgeable but doesnt like to help?)

So then we rolled.  She has 5 dice and I have 5?  Or 6, since each response gives 2 dice in a 2 player game?  We rolled 5 each just to try things out.  She won.

We were at a point where we didn't know what to do.  I suspect this is explained better in the book?  But our problem was this: does she narrate how this scene ends?  And we didn't quite understand the Second Pool thing and we just skipped it.

We forgot to name a trait before rolling, but we reasoned that her hurdle is generally to make Beloved suspect S2.  So S2 gained the trait Suspected.

S1's turn.

S1 is just moving in to the apartment as Beloved returns.  S1 approaches her and asked if she was the "slayer", having some slight idea of what she looks like.  S1 introduces herself and then quickly shows her the arifact she carries with her.  S1 had moved here in the hopes to find her.  Their families have history.

I throw in the hurdle at that point.  I invoked S1's trait of Unskilled:  Beloved invites her to her office and asks her to demonstrate what she can do, expecting that she has at least some skills seeing that her family has some sort of ties with her own and that she came looking to be her assistant.  I forgot to sate a trait to add, again.

My sister responses:
"I don't have any skills, but I am very hardworking."  (clunky... is stating a fact about herself using that trait?  it doesnt seem right), And at that moment, her brother gives S1 a call, needing her. (using that Person I gave her character) and that leads to Beloved's compassionate:  "Part of why I need the job is because of my sick brother too".

So we rolled 5 each.  As luck would have it, we had a tie.  We suspect again this is likely in the book, but where we were, we are not sure who narrates the ending of this scene, do we give each other traits, and do we need to have a 2nd pool... those sort of things.  So, with that we stopped; it was getting late anyway and we had a lot of fun even with just that.  It took about 30 minutes (since I explained the rules to her last time, I guess it would have taken longer otherwise).

The game turned out to be easier and faster to run than I was expecting.  I was so worried of my lack of experience, but it turned out not to matter too much.  I am a bit surprised that my sister responded quite quickly, and I wasnt as fast as I expected; in spite of my familiarity with making stories.

We had a lot of fun.  My sister is sold, even though we played less than half a game.  This is simply THE gateway game.  Many more family/friends will be sold.  Hopefully, they will get dragged into other games as well.

THANK YOU for this inspired and wondrous game, Emily!!

This whole thread makes me delirously happy!

Iskander wrote:
This whole thread makes me delirously happy!

Like I said, in retrospect, my character's Place seems more like I am mentioning a Person.  Is this how we should be doing it?  How much detail are we supposed to go into Person/Place/Thing?  Do we simply need to put something there without really going into story justifications (like how we tried to explain how my character is related to the Red River Valley, and why Suitor 1 has an artifact that once belonged to the Beloved.  Or are these things we can justify during narration)?

I used Willful but openminded (mainly just being Willful):  S2 admits to his ties with a confident straight face, "Yes, I work for him."  "So what, does that faze you?", here I am using the Beloved's Brave trait, my reasoning is that this sounds like a challenge to her and she isn't going to back down so easily.  And finally, my 3rd response: S2 leaves with the men since he is cold but respectful of his elders.  Again, I feel as if I did it wrong, since I say S2 is leaving without a fuss and how does that advance his goal of making her accept me?  Perhaps I should have said S2 attempts to fight these men and expresses he doesn't blindly follow instructions (is using Willful twice allowed?  or perhaps I can sort of justify it with the trait Knowledgeable but doesnt like to help?)

So then we rolled.  She has 5 dice and I have 5?  Or 6, since each response gives 2 dice in a 2 player game?  We rolled 5 each just to try things out.  She won.

We were at a point where we didn't know what to do.  I suspect this is explained better in the book?  But our problem was this: does she narrate how this scene ends?  And we didn't quite understand the Second Pool thing and we just skipped it.

My copy of Shooting the Moon finally arrived today along with Burning Wheel and Mortal Coil.  I gave a quick read through, but I am still a bit confused with the 2nd Pool and the Final Scene setting.

Specifically for the 2nd Pool, in the example given in the book, the player refused the suggestion of Cowardice for 4 dice, and instead opt of 3 dice by bring in his conflict.  The thing is though, the example didn't really get into that.  The conflict is something that makes things hard for me to achieve my goal, so how do I draw upon it to help me beat the hurdle (it is supposed to work against me, right)?  Like the example you gave me with "Working for the Villain" in this thread, I'd draw on it by opposing the Villian's minions; but I am supposed to work for the Villain, wouldn't that be opposing my conflict?  Or are we supposed to oppose the conflict?

For the final scene (before the dice are cast), for each die we can roll we must bring in an element of character/world.  So the players frame a climax scene together, and after that bring in the "dice elements".  Does it matter who goes first?

Thank you again for your time, Emily.  You are simply wonderful.

Hi!

Glad all the games made it to you. Oh, you are going to have some fun with Burning Wheel and Mortal Coil! I'll try to clarify what you asked about StM:

Specifically for the 2nd Pool, in the example given in the book, the player refused the suggestion of Cowardice for 4 dice, and instead opt of 3 dice by bring in his conflict.  The thing is though, the example didn't really get into that.  The conflict is something that makes things hard for me to achieve my goal, so how do I draw upon it to help me beat the hurdle (it is supposed to work against me, right)? 

For the final scene (before the dice are cast), for each die we can roll we must bring in an element of character/world.  So the players frame a climax scene together, and after that bring in the "dice elements".  Does it matter who goes first?

Thanks for your reply, Emily.

On a related note, is the 2nd poll a "all or nothing" thing?  Using the example you gave in the book about the knight to clarify what I mean:

Since the opponent won the first poll, the trait is "turned into a frog", and the second poll is next.  My question is, has the first poll "happened" before we continue with narration of the 2nd poll, ie. suitor is turned into a frog before the story continues?  Or, do we halt the result of that (don't write that down as a trait yet) because the active suitor is given another chance in the form of the 2nd poll?

In other words, if the active suitor loses both 1st and 2nd poll, does he get 2 traits or just the 2nd trait?  Using the book's example, is he now a frog or a coward, or a cowardly frog?  If he instead wins the 2nd poll, is he still a frog with some new trait he gets to add, or does he just win the hurdle and give himself a trait?

Thanks again.

By the way, will we be getting any news on your new game any time soon?

Hey Wilson,

The trait from the first roll takes effect and is added to the sheet immediately.  So, yup, you can get two traits in a single turn.

In the example from the book, the knight's player and the beloved's player lost the first roll, so the knight gets turned into a frog.  The opponent gave them the suggestion that the knight turned and ran away, acting like a coward. So this would mean that the knight got both traits "turned into frog" and "coward". But in the example, the knight's player doesn't want to take that trait, so turns down the 4 dice it would represent, and starts to think about a different trait that would call upon his conflict: "betrayed his comrades".  It might be that a ghost of one of his fallen friends appears in his way, and the trait would be "haunted". Or it might be that someone in the crowd calls out that he's getting his come-uppance for turning traitor and the trait would be "seen as a traitor". Either of these would give the players 3 more dice to roll.

Getting back to your earlier question of how do the new traits end up helping you win: they may not, although the character may overcome the obstacles successfully anyway.  What they really do is give you and the other players an opportunity to ratchet up the pressure on your character. In return for which, you get to gain another shot at attaining the character's overall goals. 

And very cool that you're thinking about adapting StM to an online venue! It works really well for BtI. Keep me posted!

all the best,
Emily

ps And thanks also for asking about Sign in Stranger. More to come on that front soon!