Hello !

I have been lurking on this forum off and on for a while now, and have decided to get into the research/design phase for a CRPG. What I am asking about is the play mechanics, specifically (i.e. NOT the programming part)

I want to use/create a pen-and-paper system and use it as a tool to keep the game balanced and consistent, but I cannot find anything ready to use that meets my needs :

1) Quick resolution

2) Fairly rules light/open

3) Freedom from class hierarchy of any sort

4) Few, if any, assumptions made about the use of magic

The two systems that come the closest are GURPS and TriStat-dx. I already know I cannot use GURPS in a CRPG without paying/negotiating a licence fee. I cannot tell if TriStat has the same restrictions or not, especially given that Guardians of Order is going out of business

Now, I am asking if it would be better to modify TriStat, or create a new system from scratch. I would like to know, specifically, if anyone has had success running/creating a balanced game either way. Please note that balance and consistency are the two things I am motivated by. If I create a new system, I would not mind self-publishing/sharing, but the resulting rules would be used in an electronic, interactive product.

Also, if it helps :

1) I am a hobbyist/student

2) My previous pen-and-paper roleplaying experience includes MechWarrior, FUDGE, Killer Bunnies (CCG), and Magic : The Gathering (CCG). I have *never* played D&D, and d20/Open Gaming/SRD is therefore quite foreign and almost opposite of what I am looking for.

3) I own GURPS 3e, and BESM, 2e, and have them on hand for reference. I also downloaded TriStat-dx PDF

4) Most free systems I have seen copy D&D or GURPS very poorly, are harder to understand, and do not meet my needs.

Thanks in advance for you time.

I modified D&D3.5, modern, future and several others to my system.

You do have the feel of the start rules but in the end it is different.

It has been a long road and is still not complete.

So for me I think that modifing is not an easy out for making a new game.

1. I feel that the combat system is still as quick as D&D, only requiring one extra roll for body point hit, but makes up for that by removing the critical confirmation roll.

2. Hum not light, went the heavier road, but the actual combat is still quick and easy. I see that more detail can be used to enhance the gaming session, like a hit blowing off a limb or such.

3. yep dumped skill cross classing and basically allowed a build for a mage/ psionic in any class, as its feats based not class based

4. Don't really understand the point, I have used the D&D system of spells but removed caster level and other major changes.

Rick

I am playing Nexus with pen and paper in my play testing, and also using it as a PbP on line play test as well.

Hi, Damakun, and welcome to the Forge!

It sounds like you're asking for a pencil-and-paper system to start developing the rules/procedures for a CRPG. Is this correct? I don't think your first two criteria fit very well with CRPGs. In a CRPG, you don't really have to worry about "quick resolution," since the computer can easily carry out calculations involving many factors that would bog down in pencil-and-paper play. Additionally, a "rules light" system is probably the last thing you want for a CRPG. Rules-light systems tend to rely on having the players make a lot of things up and extrapolate from the rules, rather than giving specific procedures for every contingency. This works really badly for a CRPG, where you have to program in every action that a player can take.

You might want to take a look at D&D/the d20 system, and then take a look at Neverwinter Nights. See how they converted the pencil-and-paper system into something that could be programmed. Yes, you might dislike the class and magic systems, but it's a really good example of conversion. (If you have the time/resources/inclination, you might also look at AD&D 1st or 2nd ed and the computer games based on those systems. Some of the computer games ended up using systems that were quite different!)

If, on the other hand, you're looking for a system for play with live people, I have a couple of suggestions. One is FATE, an adaptation of the FUDGE system optimized for telling stories. Another is The Shadow of Yesterday. (The document mentions the world called Near, but all the setting-specific stuff--including magic--is in another document.) These two games meet your criteria, but neither of them can be easily converted to a CRPG. Both of them are released under licenses that give you the right to adapt or kitbash them. (OGL for FATE, Creative Commons BY-NC-SA for TSOY.)

CRPG? Are we talking Collectable Role Playing Game? Like, with cards and stuff?

Wow... now there's something. The only game I know that pulled it off, and for some bizzare reason found it's nitch market was Dragon Storm. It's pretty rules light, although at times, I think it's a bit restrictive on the GM.

(For a while, I was thinking of a game that was sold in mini-paperback books. YOu would need the core, and a book for each class that you wanted to play... but that idea eventually was tossed out at a bad idea. :D  :(  Oh... wait... White Wolf is doing that now... well, at least you get more material getting their books)

What is it you want to do with this game?

Damakun wrote:
1) Quick resolution

2) Fairly rules light/open

3) Freedom from class hierarchy of any sort

4) Few, if any, assumptions made about the use of magic

I agree with the view that systems with few rules and a lot of interpretation will be very hard to implement.  For any pracitcal situation you would have to figure out how the programme should interpet these values, and thats basically the same as writing a complex rule based system.

I'd like to hear some further qualifying statements, to better offer advice:
1) Is the game intended to emphasize exploration and tactical conflicts, or more political or strategic play?
2) Are you planning to implement in-game abilities as "clickable" special effects (like World of Warcraft) or as modifiers to common base abilities (like, say, Unreal)?
3) Are you doing turn-based or real time?
4) How important are the situations and setting to your basic concept or playstyle goals (i.e. are they primary, or is the "game engine" primary)?
5) Do you intend to support single player, multiplayer over impromptu networks (LAN, WAN, VPN), massive multiplayer, or some combination? How many players?
6) Do you intend for a game to play open-ended, or will the game typically play to an end game state or final resolution/encounter?
7) Will the game require a GM/admin, or will it use the game engine for all GM/admin duties (instantiation, resolution, rewards)?

That should do for now... but I will likely have follow-up questions based on the replies to those initial framing questions.

HTH;
David

Thanks all ! I will definitely investigate the links and possibilities presented. I have indeed not totally thought out exactly how much "work" goes into a rules light system that I sort of took for granted.... The main thing, was to provide a consistent way of handling and resolving conflicts. It has occurred to me that I can still assign classes to the NPCs/monsters and manage them that way, while hiding that from the PCs so they are not overwhelmed/burdened with those details.

David wrote:
I'd like to hear some further qualifying statements, to better offer advice:
1) Is the game intended to emphasize exploration and tactical conflicts, or more political or strategic play?
2) Are you planning to implement in-game abilities as "clickable" special effects (like World of Warcraft) or as modifiers to common base abilities (like, say, Unreal)?
3) Are you doing turn-based or real time?
4) How important are the situations and setting to your basic concept or playstyle goals (i.e. are they primary, or is the "game engine" primary)?
5) Do you intend to support single player, multiplayer over impromptu networks (LAN, WAN, VPN), massive multiplayer, or some combination? How many players?
6) Do you intend for a game to play open-ended, or will the game typically play to an end game state or final resolution/encounter?
7) Will the game require a GM/admin, or will it use the game engine for all GM/admin duties (instantiation, resolution, rewards)?

Kensan_Oni wrote:
CRPG? Are we talking Collectable Role Playing Game? Like, with cards and stuff?

At the risk of sounding redundant I have a d20 variant that I'm working on that I'd like to propose.  It's a rules system only (no world) but it is written to support the fantasy genre.  After I complete this one, I'll probably start on a modern variant.

http://www.metaltoad.com/rpg/

I think the rules are pretty good, but some might say I am biased... :-P

Hi, welcome to the forge!

Damakun wrote:
4) Situation and setting are very important... I realize that there is a fad to make universal RPG systems lately, but to be honest, I know the story (or stories) I would like to tell.

Hi,

I think games like CIVILIZATION or or resource-management games or even Sims might be more appropriate for a Narrative-style CRPG than say Neverwinter Nights et al., since the basic thing is having a randomized setting with players constructing something out of nothing and forging alliances/relations with others. I also remember ALPHA CENTAURI which was a good take with an overall ecological-colonization theme, with ideological wars behind this. There was a Herowars game back then I think that did that sort of thing too... Don't remember quite well though.

You might want to check this out if you want to do something down the Narrative-style road, though from what I read you're essentially in a Gamist perspective, so you might not be looking at the systems to best fit your needs. I suggest first thinking "What will this game be about" and then try to fit mechanics that will do just that.

Good luck!

Hello Damakun,

Designing software to allow single-user, freeform role-playing is extremely difficult. On the market, there are some very sophisticated engines that emulate real-world physics and have enought artificial-intelligence to give the impression of interaction. You may want to research various RPG engines, MUDs and MMORPG systems before attempting to create your own. The wheel has been imagined, designed, built, tested and rolled. There is no need to create something like that from scratch unless your RPG is completely different.

Also, developing stats, mechanics and rules isn't a true test of your creativity. Tell a story about the heroes in your world from a first-person perspective. That would be an example of what you can deliver to your target audience. If you want a true computer RPG then you will need to hide most of the mechanics and formulae. Focus on what the player can do in the world you've created. From an RPG view, I'm more interested in your story about wyverns.

However, I'm not a power-gamer. I'm not interested in the stats and minutiae of the system. I like stories. Others care more about the numbers and how to max them. Definitely research your target audience.

Good luck,

Troy

Hello all !

Thanks for taking the time to help me out with this process. I must do more research, obviously. The rules-light systems I thought I wanted to use are very much difficult to use in a computer RPG setting. Although Fate, The Pool, and others I have looked into over the weekend are good for live pen-and-paper, I did take for granted exactly how much work the human mind does in making those systems work well. I think TriStat is probably the lightest thing, as far as rules go, that will actually work for my purposes.

I think TroyLovesRPG made an interesting point. It seems the issue is not necessarily to use one mechanic over another, but to hide them from the player. Levelling up is another issue althogether different, but I think there is a way to strike a better balance between drowning the players with various numbers, and free-form roleplaying.  Too many computer RPGs (like, for instance Final Fantasy Tatics Advance) simply show too much information. It is nigh impossible to figure out what a Thief or Gladiator can actually use without buying something and trying to equip it; information about who can use an item is not consistently shown, and there is nothing obvious from the description or name of the item..... it is not a trivial matter to try to determine how to improve performance of the characters, either. Some parts of the game look more like a spreadsheet than a game.

Also, looking over some of the other posts have made me focus and prioritize exactly what is important in the gaming experience - that is to say, what I would like people to see, hear, feel, and do in the game. It seems that for a little more effort, I can give some sense of influence and control over what happens... that is a storytelling sort of issue, although, there are ways to make it so that people can participate in the storytelling. Final Fantasy VII and Golden Sun are very good at that, making you feel like a part of the story, and involving you deeply in the plot.

I have decided that instead of imposing classes on the player characters, I will impose them on the objects and monsters encountered instead. By putting groups of weapons and monsters into families, I hope to make them easier for me to manage and for the players to deal with. The levelling up would be by way of skills primarily, although I am still trying to decide how levelling should be handled.... I want to present the players with different challenges and leave it up to them how they meet it - or at least provide one alternative.

So, in short, it seems that I will modify an existing system. The other issues that I thought would be handled by the system mechanic can actually be better handled by other design areas (level design, setting design, etc.) - even though, from a strict pen-and-paper perspective, this may seem counter-intuitive. I still believe that pen-and-paper rules are excellent tools to use for a computer game design. I can tell you that the forums dedicated to computer RPGs are nowhere near as sophisticated or thoughful as this one. I will continue to lurk and watch this thread, and will ask more questions as they come up (possibly in a new thread)

@ Callahan S : Well, I suppose I would like the player to know certain things about the world they are in, and for a certain ending to be reached. I suppose it would not hurt if certain "bad" things happened along the way. I suppose an extreme example of twisting the player's arm into sticking with the story would be the dreaded FedEx Quest ("Deliver this vial/sword/jewel/Book of Forbidden Knowledge to the Old Woman on the Mountain for me and I'll tell you how to get past the Giant !" The Old Woman tells you "Well, this is nice, but I need a ferret's tail to go with it", etc. ad nauseum)

I want to avoid the FedEx Quest. Really. It is overused/abused too much in the CRPG world.  I was thinking of providing optional quests, as well as branches in the main storyline, where the player could see the effects of their actions on the landscape (other than just killing the Giant and getting some special Bow of Undead Death or some lame NPC text)

@ all others : Thanks again for all of your information /insights. I have much work/research ahead of me !

Hi,

I'm refering to something bigger than fedex quests. For example, if the ending you have in mind was where two warring nations put asside their differences to take on a greater threat (and see how their not so unalike), player input to stop you from getting exactly what you want might be the player having the opportunity and addressing the situation, to take the other nation and instead enslave it. Or siding with the greater evil agains the old foe (better the better devil you know!). Or sacrafice both sides to massive destruction, since evil must be crushed at any cost! This example is a little stale though - it doesn't refer to the ending you really, really want as the designer. You'd probably get what I meant, if I was using that particular ending as an example. You'd see how I'm refering to the player effecting what you as a designer care about. Which is why getting an undead death sword or lame text box for killing the giant, is lame. Not because it doesn't effect the game world in any real way - but because it doesn't effect what is important here. What the desingner thinks is important.

From my own experience of programming, I bet your thinking of how you'd have to script all sorts of endings whichthe majority of which would never be seen (certainly other CRPG designers have expressed that here). But I'll pause here to see if weve got some mutual ground or not.

This thread is making me think seriously about what it takes to actually role-play. I've always found it difficult to start with stats and numbers to create a character. Its very impersonal and forces the player to "max out" just for survival purposes. Looking at it from the perspective of the hero's struggle, gives a new meaning to character creation.

Maybe that's where many games fall flat. I see many players thumb through the resources looking for the right combination of stats and feats to create a killing machine. They don't want to read the background or the motivation of the class. So, hiding that may be a great solution, especially in a computer game. Just choose the life-path and the computer will do the rest, including throwing appropriate adventures and antagonists at you. This doesn't really keep the players in the dark, conversely it keeps the player in tune with the character.

If the player chooses a path that involves politics and intrigue, then the computer may generate encounters with government officials and spies. Choosing religious path may lead to knowledge of corruption within the church, etc. As a GM that's what I do with the players. I don't pick an adventure off the shelf and run the party through it. The players create their characters and must write a background involving their origin, motivations, possible relatives and important goals. I use that to create reference to their characters within the adventure. Also, knowledge of the player helps to generate interest. Some want heroics, others want treasures and a few just want their egos stroked. Everyone has a different reason to roleplay and that will ultimately determine what stereotypical character they choose.

Approach character creation from birth. Were you born on a farm, in a city, hatched from an egg, etc. Introduce astrological significance. Ask about parents, family, community. Let the player choose the broad environment and specific character traits. With the computer it is possible to crunch all that information quickly to form a very unique and attractive game just for that player. If you have a multiuser environment, then the world grows and players encounters very unique characters that come from no known mold. Now that's a CRPG I would play!

Brain cells are rubbing...

TroyLovesRPG wrote: Approach character creation from birth. Were you born on a farm, in a city, hatched from an egg, etc. Introduce astrological significance. Ask about parents, family, community. Let the player choose the broad environment and specific character traits. With the computer it is possible to crunch all that information quickly to form a very unique and attractive game just for that player.