Ok, I mentioned this in another thread, so I'd like to pose a question to the viewing audience.

1) How do sorcerers defend themselves from other sorcerers? Let's be clear, as a sorcerer you can use vision to find a person wherever they may be, and then use something else to kill them; say, shrink their skull down many times and destroy their brain in one fell swoop. Or, to avoid any messy art or WP rolls, just bring the house down around them.

What can you do to defend against that?

2) What can a regular guy with means do against a sorcerer? Let me pose this problem another way: Uglub has, say, 50 decent quality sorcerers under his command (and possibly many others with limited abilities on the front lines). Each of these guys can kill a single person pretty easily, so they could, in a month's time, wipe out most the nobles in Stahl (or whatever). Furthermore, at some personal sacrifice, each could summon a demon and send it after a spicy target (like a stronghold). Furthermore, each of these sorcerers are guarded by a well-trained army, which can deal with a mundane threat for at least a time.

How can a mortal army reasonably oppose one that has access to sorcery?

I do have some thoughts, and I may have some additions to the world to smooth some edges, but I'd like to here what others think as well.

-Jeff

That's a tough question to answer. I've been thinking about it myself, and the best I can come up with is this:

Firstly, magic is rare in Weyrth. So rare that "educated" people don't even believe in it. I honestly don't think Gelure is home to that many sorcerers. They have a tolerant (even encouraging) policy toward them, but they're so rare, there can't be that many. Still, one is enough to mess up your whole day...

Second, I imagine that while those that wield magic are happy to see Gelure welcome their kind, most probably don't care. I imagine that most sorcerers in Weyrth are unconcerned with the goings on of the nations around them. They care only for their own goals, which are probably beyond the ken of 99% of the populaiton of Weyrth. Now, if Uggie can get some leverage on a sorcerer, maybe find something that he can give them that no one else can, then maybe they'll help him burn and pillage. But what can he give them that they can't get for themselves? His offer of shelter to those who practice the art is probably appreciated, but I'm sure it's not something a sorcerer needs. If you are able to find a sorcerer's den, it was because he either didn't care if you found him, or he wanted you to...

That's how I see it, anyway. But I'd love to hear what others think.

Brandon

Thanks, I've had some of the same thoughts, though I think Uglub has a) soaked up a lot of sorcs (10s, perhaps high 10s if you count people with little real power), and b) put them to work, at least to some degree. The game mentions that Gelure will expand in the start year, and it's going to have to do it on the backs of the sorcs.

However, all of this sidesteps the mechanical issues. Sorcs are very much a "first strike" weapon. Unless I'm missing something, if Uglub strikes first, he wins, even against other sorcs. Furthermore, humans really don't stand a chance. Between diseases, demons, and long-distance assasination of key leaders, Uglub should be able to roll through everyone.

My first step is to worry about how a sorc defends against another sorc. I don't mean in battle, I mean on a day-to-day basis. Once I crack that, then I need to address sorcs vs the populace, which I think will come down to more social things ("You want me to waste 2-years of my life for what?").

-Jeff

I will tell you one thing... Conquest cannot be had by heavy artillery alone. You do need ground troops, and ground war. Assassination may weaken a nation, but it cannot conquer it. There will be a ground war.

Other than that, I cannot answer you. The sorcerors will be as effective as combat support as they are as heavy artillery.

Wolfen wrote: I will tell you one thing... Conquest cannot be had by heavy artillery alone. You do need ground troops, and ground war. Assassination may weaken a nation, but it cannot conquer it. There will be a ground war.

Other than that, I cannot answer you. The sorcerors will be as effective as combat support as they are as heavy artillery.

I would say there is no real way for the army without the sorcery to resist effectively. As Ian points out, the command structure of the sorcery-weak force would be undefendable and could be picked off as needed. Since you cannot run nor hide from sorcery, the only recourse I can see would be attempts to take out the enemy sorcerers. Assassinations & such would be attempted, but these would not be nearly as effective as the sorcerer's methods (there are ways to defend against assassins, but not against the sorcery). The side with a decisive advantage in sorcery should win.

If one nation or faction has a clear sorcery advantage over others, but does not control most of the sorcery in the entire world, that nation could be cautious in using its advantage, for fear of bringing others into the conflict against them. So, Gelure might employ just enough sorcery to take on its foes one at a time. Still they would be expected to win, however, up until the point that enough foes (with enough combined sorcery) turned against them. This might at least slow down the progression of world domination by a sorcerous faction. This all presupposes that they do not have enough sorcery to take on the rest of the world all at once, though...

I'm going to disappear for a week, and hopefully run TRoS during that time. Here's some of my thoughts on these things:

1) Vision lvl 3 says it can find anything, anywhere, as long as the sorcerer has some link to the place. Unfortunately, that last part is vague, but I'm going to assume that a person hiding randomly in the wilderness is mostly safe unless the sorcerer gets his hair or fingernail clippings, or the sorcerer has a servant who finds him, or something similar. Presumably the sorc has made a link between himself and the servant, and can work something out from that. I'll also assume that well-known location, like a castle, can be linked-to pretty easily.

2) Spells can be inverted as defense. I think we can assume that a smart sorcerer will find someway to hide his presence from prying eyes by inverting a vision spell. I need to find a cool way to make this permenant.

3) We've never touched on the magical properties of items. Is iron deadly to the sidhe? Silver hurt undead? Maybe detailing magical properties of other items might come up with some materials that make spell-casting difficult in the area, and some nobles often use that material (like people in Xanar).

4) Social. A prior poster was right, this is an issue I'd rather avoid now. I can come up with a group of witchhunters who always where hoods when they do their work, make no friends other than other witchhunters, dress in black, are orphans, are meticulous about their hair and nail clippings, and generally hard to find w/vision. It is part of the solution.

5) I agree with another prior poster; this is about someone who can take out key defensive positions & command personnel with precision. The rest is just a detail. This doesn't mean Gelure has the resources to take over massive amounts of ground, but it does mean they can destroy what they want limited only by the number of sorcs they have, and the amount of energy those sorcs expend.

Last, I want to point out that sorcerers don't need to expend that much energy to give a decisive advantage to their troops. An illusion of gadflys on a troop of cavalry, bringing down a section of wall in a castle, floating a few soldiers into the gate house at dusk, and so-on. All of this will give a decisive advantage on the battlefield, and is pretty easy to do.

-Jeff

P.S. Thought of one last point: just because there are limitations to sorcery doesn't mean most people know what they are. It's unlikely that nobles throughout the world religiously guard themselves from sorcerous vision.

Hi guys,

Something else to consider, not having read the rules yet, let alone played....

But if I remember correctly from the eighty gazillion posts I've read over the last week, Sorcs are not even believed by most folks right? There's got to be a reason for this. I'd offer a) most people don't see big ju-ju all the time b) the sorcs like it to be secret.

I'd offer that sorcs have every reason in the world not to attract attention -- say armies of villagers wielding pitchforks and torches -- let alone soldiers. Yes, they could hold out with magic for a while -- but their very defense depends on the expenditure of the life -- which is the very resource they're trying to defend. Not as cost effective as just keeping a low profile and being smart about it. So whatever they do in public, will be limited, infrequent and carefully hidden so that no one starts putting together clues and start spinning the tale that there must be a sorcerer out there doing all this -- which would of course be true and lead to further clues each time the sorcerer took action!

I think one more thing to think about about SA's and sorcs as people. In other words, let's make sure we don't fall into the DnD trap of thinking at Sorcerers as artillary. Why are they sorcerers? These are men and women who's devoted years of study to a secret and fearful profession that involves tapping strange forces that can litterly kill them if used incorrectly. Why? What it is about magic that draws them? To what end? Just as a fighter in TRoS is more than a guy who can kill (and that's what makes him interesting), let's assume there's more to a sorcerer than the ability to vanquish tower wall or kill a leader. He could do these things... But why? How are his SAs actually lined up? How many Sorcerers have a Passion for Serving Military Big Wigs? How many of them have a Destiny to be a Court Monkey Boy?

Once you combine the desire for secrecy (which means careful, long range planning and action -- just like all those soldiers now carefully laying ambushes all across Weyrth!) with SAs that actually focus action in personal and meaningful ways, I think you'll find the tool of the state problem begins to melt.

As for defense on an individual level -- remember, SA's hook characters both ways. If someone's gunning for you, giving the Narrativist angle, you probably know it. It's now a story. As has already been pointed out, there are conditions for the spells. The intended victim is now taking action to wipe the guy out -- or trying to appease him some how. As pointed out on another thread, fighter aren't out to kill everyone they meet It's not DnD. The goal is not killing, but attending to the SA's. If a sorcerer has them, and he will, he too isn't a killing machine, but someone with an agenda. This is another point where story kicks in -- how can that agenda be negotiated, mitigated, scattered? Can allies be gathered who are gunning for the sorcerer? Does the sorcerer have a weakness? Yes, there's a ticking clock: if the sorcerer is patient, he will nail you... But can you win first. And will the sorcerer be satisfied with less than murder? If he's not just a fucked up psychopath, probably.

I think the key is remember these are men and women working within the realm of characters with SAs. The above concerns are still present, but extremely rare within the extremely rare population of sorcerers.

Yes?

Christopher

Wolfen wrote: Assassination may weaken a nation, but it cannot conquer it. There will be a ground war.

The general populace of Weyrth either a) thinks magic is a myth or b)persecutes the Gifted as if they were the minions of the Dark Betrayer. For those people in group 'a', they generally move into group 'b' if they are proven wrong.

I generally think that most Gifted would prefer to keep as many people in groups 'a' as they can. It's better than being hunted all the time, because eventually you WILL run out of sorcery pool, or you WILL age just a tad too much. It's just a matter of time. So I don't think they go around killing people indiscriminantly.

I'd also like to point out that it isn't that most people disbelieve magic (though Stahlnish nobles are a notable exception), but rather that they've just never seen it. People ARE very superstitious, at least the rural folk. City folk may not really believe much, but whatever the case I agree with The_Fey in that sorcerers mostly want to keep out of reach, as they could get in a lot of trouble. Think of the recluse sorcerer trying not to get found and going insane from lonliness and the effects of spending your life to get what you want...

Jake

I'd offer that sorcs have every reason in the world not to attract attention -- say armies of villagers wielding pitchforks and torches -- let alone soldiers.

That's the thing. If Stahl amasses a huge army, I don't think it will be blown away. Look at volume 3. Nowhere does it say that you can kill more than about ten guys with one spell, and that would be a tough spell (range 2, volume 3, target 1 or 3, Level 1 to 3... at least CTN 7, perhaps as high as 11), which might knock out the sorceror. If the sorceror uses an easier spell of three, he will do one powerful thing in a matter of minutes, but he will be vulnerable for at least a minute. In the battlefield, that's probably a mistake.

Also, about Farrenshire. People would have to know about the attack before it happened. How would Angharad respond? Remember that although the Celts have little love for the Farrenmen, the Celts would probably rather raid the soft Farrenmen than the aggressive Gelurians. So, they might come and slaughter the Gelurian army with a few druids and a slew and a half of woad raiders. Also, Cyrinthmeir, a country that is uneasy with Gelure, might see this as a good time to attack. Then there's always a chance that the highly trained Farrenmen might beat back the Gelurian dogs and surprise us all.

In short, I think you assume too much.

In short, I think you assume too much.

1467 WEYR. (This is the recommeneded year to begin play.) The king of Gelure -- a mysterious man with black skin and white hair -- declares himself emperor and opens a violent campaign in conquest of his neighbors. By the end of the year he has all but taken Farrenshire and Ouestenreich, and has begun to work on Cyrinthmeiran borders.

That's the thing. If Stahl amasses a huge army, I don't think it will be blown away.

Nowhere does it say that you can kill more than about ten guys with one spell,

Note about the "ten guys limit": It's not an actual limit, but rather something that I've noticed would be extremely hard, if not impossible to do. Sorcerors shine most with individuals, not armies.

Also, killing the stahlnish commanders wouldn't work that well. The whole army is already in chaos, so the troops are probably used to it. It's not like Stahl has a central leader or something.

Lyrax wrote: It's not like Stahl has a central leader or something.

Hi Jake,

Um, would you mind chiming in on this one. Right about now I am really curious about your take on this.

Thanks,
Christopher

On my take on what? There are a few bits and pieces here. If you mean my take on how Gelure is planning on taking the world with its socerery...I don't have a definitive answer. I've never been a big fan of metaplot (I think it removes the PC's protagonism to a large degree) except where it IS the point (eg Pendragon, Star Wars). Weyrth has no real planned metaplot. I created a world on the verge of explosion, and figured I'd leave it at that.

If that doesn't corner your question just re-specify and I'll be happy to address whatever.

Jake

Hi Jake,

Sorry I wasn't clear.

Defending against sorcery. Any suggestions?

Can three sorcerers, backed by a government, take over the world?

The posters above seem to think so. No one has as yet offered a concrete solution that everyone else accepts. Do you have anything to offer on the matter of defending against sorcery? Do any of the proffered suggestions above make more sense to you than others.

Metaplot elements are not a concern. I'm not asking about specific nations or storylines. Just the bare bones rules: Is the magic of sorcerers in the context of the game world powerful enough to offer unstopable victory as described above.

Thanks,
Christopher

Metaplot elements are not a concern. I'm not asking about specific nations or storylines. Just the bare bones rules: Is the magic of sorcerers in the context of the game world powerful enough to offer unstopable victory as described above.

Thanks Jake.

And your comment...

First off, anyone trying to take over the world is greedy by definition. How long do 3 such people get along? How long before they destroy each other in attempt to become "alpha male?"

Who might stop such men and women abusing such power? Well, that's a story, isn't it?

Christopher Kubasik wrote: Who might stop such men and women abusing such power? Well, that's a story, isn't it?

Lyrax wrote:

Also, killing the stahlnish commanders wouldn't work that well. The whole army is already in chaos, so the troops are probably used to it.

One thing I've been trying to think through is magic that doesn't derive from the gift. Things like mithril steel, or the power of amber to cloud mystic vision, or the wood of some tree that can be used by the gifted to channel their energies (like a +1sp on all summoning spells). If some people know (the inquisition?) that Ravens can sense the gift, then maybe they train Ravens and keep them near all their meeting places.

I'll second the Dark is Rising in a heartbeat. Great read. I think it was mentioned, but Chronicles of Prydain by Lloyd Alexander were awesome as well (The Black Cauldron became a Disney piece). Taran Wanderer and the High King (books 4 & 5) are two of my favorite books: I draw on images from those all the time in my gaming.

-Jeff