Topic: The Squeaky Wheel
Started by: Matt Snyder
Started on: 5/24/2002
Board: Actual Play
On 5/24/2002 at 9:07pm, Matt Snyder wrote:
The Squeaky Wheel
I've posted a couple comments in the past about my attempts to improve my regular group's gaming sessions (including a survey I had my players answer), so that they might become more satisfying for me and others involved. I've practically managed to drive my fellow players insane, largely thanks to the ever-subversive thinkers here on the Forge! :)
My latest attempt at a shakedown stemmed from my ever-increasing frustration w/ our traditional game of choice, D&D, and it's inability to suit, at least, my preferences as a player. I finally made and ultimatum and said No More. Then, I asked several questions of my players as we all sat around on our usual gaming night and had a good round table discussion.
It was very interesting -- I heard some ideas, critiques and other thoughts that I'd never considered, and by and large my players were surprising forthcoming.
For example, my brother Dave admitted he was uncomfortable (or perhaps distracted is the better word) with our current playing time and place. This was surprising because that place is my home, and I know he's quite comfortable there, usually. This logistical consideration, I think, had a pretty important impact among all the players, and we've now agreed to longer sessions in a less distractive environment / place.
Other things I found surprising -- an overall willingness to try something new (that is, some new system, and even playing techniques that amount to their unconscious acknowledgment of changes in stances). They also seemed really interested in rewards and how they're handled. I stressed the issue of rewards and a suitable game system that encourages rewards in line with our goals, and they had suggestions for player and/or character behaviors they wanted to reward.
Overall, it was a refreshing airing of issues, and I think everyone walked away with a better understanding of why he's part of the group, and what our group enjoys. Now if we could just figure out what to play . . .
Actually, we started to dicuss that as well, and I'm left with the task of cobbling up system that will help us better emphasize our, um, ambitions. I'm using, partly based on their input and my own preferences, 7th Sea's rules. There are just so many things about the system, particularly the Drama dice, that I love as a GM, and I think my players are generally agreable to the system. However, we intend to customize the thing (of course), and have not yet decided on a setting in which to play.
Can anyone share insights they may have with this game or with Legend of the Five Rings? I'm basically looking to transplant some hybrid of those games into an as-yet undecided fantasy setting. Most likely, it will be a city-based campaign, with influences of Lankhmar. Any specific GM techniques? Or maybe some warnings -- perhaps the system is just too over-the-top for anything but wild, swashbuckling goodness?
On 5/24/2002 at 9:14pm, Clinton R. Nixon wrote:
RE: The Squeaky Wheel
Matt,
I highly recommend reading this discussion of 7th Sea I started months and months ago. The Drama Dice/advancement system has some pretty fatal problems, and the quick fix we talked about in this thread really helped.
That said, I think 7th Sea would work great for a Lanhkmar-type campaign. I think Riddle of Steel would work better, but that's just my opinion. 7th Sea's combat system has some problems with balance (number of attacks based off one stat - that stat will generally get pumped through the roof), and the sorcery in Riddle of Steel fits the Lankhmar-type game much more than 7th Sea.
Forge Reference Links:
Topic 318
On 5/24/2002 at 9:19pm, Jake Norwood wrote:
RE: The Squeaky Wheel
I've played lots of 7th Sea and L5R, and I'm pretty fond of both. Fighting monsters seems better to me in L5R--Combat is more direct and less genre-sensitive. 7th Sea, however has some neat rules for doing over-the-top theatrical stuff, cool skills (that will go over better in a fantasy setting), and Drama Dice. Even though L5R is cleaner, I'd go with 7th Sea if you're planning on using one of those two. 7th Sea, though, in my experience does poorly with non-sword fighting types mechanically speaking. The armor rules are very limited as well, and what's there is all for special DrachenEisen...
Thought about Warhammer FRPG or Sorcerer and Sword? Thought about The Riddle of Steel?
*wink and grin...shameless*
Jake
On 5/24/2002 at 9:24pm, Matt Snyder wrote:
Touché!
Clinton R Nixon wrote: Matt,
I highly recommend reading this discussion of 7th Sea I started months and months ago. The Drama Dice/advancement system has some pretty fatal problems, and the quick fix we talked about in this thread really helped.
That said, I think 7th Sea would work great for a Lanhkmar-type campaign. I think Riddle of Steel would work better, but that's just my opinion. 7th Sea's combat system has some problems with balance (number of attacks based off one stat - that stat will generally get pumped through the roof), and the sorcery in Riddle of Steel fits the Lankhmar-type game much more than 7th Sea.
Cool, thanks for the link, Clinton. This is helpful (and such a quick response -- yay!)
Interestingly, the two specific issues you raised are things I'm directly addressing. I'll be tacking on my own magic system, god help me. And as for the "as-written" Initiative system, I'm throwing it out too. In fact, I'm replacing the five stats with _slightly_ different set of 5.
Hard to explain this, but my game-in-progress Dreamspire was influenced in many ways by 7th Sea. So, what I'm shooting for is a weird kind of hybrid of 7th Sea and Dreamspire. That doesn't make much sense, though, since it's really like a re-re-write of the 7th Sea mechanics, and I'm tossing out lots of the "chess" stuff from Dreamspire.
Hell, anyway, no need to confuse you, me or anyone else. I'll just have to post here again as I tinker and finalize the melange I'm working on here.
Sidenote: Another surprising, but insightful, criticism my players had for me in our little wrap session was that I obsess too much about the "perfect session." They're right, of course. I think I trapped myself into the mindset that our group couldn't experiment / playtest because there'd be "errors," and that fact kept me from trying things with them for fear they'd be disappointed. In fact, I was pleased to hear they'd find such experimentation enjoyable.
Forge Reference Links:
Topic 318
On 5/24/2002 at 9:49pm, Matt Snyder wrote:
Jumpin Jake Flash
Jake Norwood wrote:
Thought about Warhammer FRPG or Sorcerer and Sword? Thought about The Riddle of Steel?
*wink and grin...shameless*
Jake
Heh, you could say that. Warhammer FRP? I have to fend off my players NOT to play that game currently. In fact, what's most likely to happen is that we're going to immediately play (actually finish an aborted earlier attempt) the Enemy Within campaign while I cobble together my Lord of the Seven Seas / 7 Rings. I played WFRP Enemy Within way back in the day, and my players want to know what all the hub-bub's about.
Sorceror and Sword is the only bit of the Sorceror trilogy I don't own ... and the one I most want to own. Just need to order it, by God, as my LGS hasn't got it in yet.
As for the Riddle of Steel, no shame there, Jake. The game looks intriguing (and the map BEAUTIFUL), but I can't get my arms around it. What should I check out to learn the basics, especially mechanics in a nutshell, if possible. I have, embarassingly, NOT read the many threads in your forum group (skimmed some, but not enough to fully comprehend). My recent readings of Leiber really have me jazzed for good ol' sword and sorcery.
On 5/24/2002 at 10:53pm, Gordon C. Landis wrote:
RE: The Squeaky Wheel
Not mechanically, but emotionally, it makes a BIG difference if you keep those Drama Dice flowin'. If the player's don't think they're "scarce", the "save for XP" issue (which, in reality, is still there) just doesn't come up. At least, so I found in a little 7th Sea play since that thread . . .
Gordon
On 5/25/2002 at 1:46am, Clay wrote:
RE: The Squeaky Wheel
One thing that really makes 7th sea go better is if the GM keeps John Wick's advice in mind. Characters should be rewarded with extra drama dice for cool actions in the game. We've had 12+ games so far and it's worked nicely. Our GM handles the drama dice thing a little differently; if we've been good little heros and doing things to advance the plot, we get rewards like additional levels in skills (or whole attribute levels if we're willing to sell our souls--sounds like Sorcerer there). This is pretty much always more valuable than a preserved drama die, and so we spend them when they're needed.