I know it when I see it, that's all I can say. A certain point in exploration of the game world that clicks with me and I have to give a difficult scenario in regards to it. Certainly I've done this in the PS2 games grand theft auto and mercenaries. Just drive around and eventually, sooner than latter actually, an intriguing crisis point comes up that I have to engage. In my PBP game as GM I'd be seeing a crisis point and presenting it as a challenge.

It aint comin'! Take this last bit, where I try to get some exploration rolling. And yeah, I basically throw him a conch shell - ugh, yeah I know how unwieldy that is. In it the character had just hidden from a forrest menace of unknown proportions.
From: http://rpol.net/display.cgi?gi=21100&gn=%5BRifts%5D+High+Fatality&threadnum=5&date=1166673605

Me wrote: Now, you might be able to tell that I'm running a little dry in scene imagination. If you can think of what your character might do next, it'd help me imagine a new scenario. And by what he does next, it isn't a test, you wont win or lose or anything. It's just to help my imaginative cogs to get going.

Player wrote: As soon as the thing has passed, I begin walking in the opposite direction for maybe half an hour. Then I look around, trying to judge which direction might take me home.

Hmm, only time I did something like this is I had a random encounter table. If one isn't available, flip through Rifts book to a random page, skim it for inspiration on a "monster" or encounter.

Alternatively, could set encounters toward challenging character issues. The only issue I could see from the link about the PC was a desire to go home. So maybe find his home? His home or part of it at stake? (Yard sale selling parts, one of which looks like from home) Someone else's home at stake (find an apparently abandoned house when weather gets bad?)

What are the player's goals, and what are the character's goals (in a broader than immediate declarations sense)? Is the player accustomed to "conch shell" play at all and understands the principle or maybe he has a history of being railroaded? Is there any broader context established that would allow the player to think up something, any character or setting background? Also, I think in that game you created an expectation of you giving challenges, not the player creating them for himself. Maybe it actually didn't click on his side?

Hi!

This is the same High Fatality game you posted about before, right?  So maybe his extreme parsimony with words and intent is pure defensiveness -- he's posting the safest action he can think of with as few words as possible. 

Sorry for the pause, I was seeing how things panned out a bit.

Hi cydmab,

I've done 'guess the PC's motive and turn it into entertainment' as a GM before. In this game, I'm only interested in suddenly seeing dangerous scenarios in the exploration.

Skimming for inspiration - I'd really prefer to be skimming the SIS activity than the source books.

Hi Filip,

I don't actually want the player to craft any challenges himself - I just want him to mess around to whatever ryhme and reason he wants to apply to his PC, and I'll observe keenly, looking for a scenario to build out of the resulting situation. Then I challenge him with it.

I put this in as a whole new thread:

This helps new, dynamic situations to occur without me having to sit on my lonesome and just make them up over and over.

Each RL day that your not engaged in a scenario, you can do any of the following and then roll percentile on the dice roller to see if you get the XP.

IMPORTANT: I've noticed that if you put an optional thing into a game, gamers tend to ignore it and just do the things they've always been comfortable doing. If you do not engage an scenario or use this table atleast once a week, your out of the game (no reapplication for two weeks). PM me if your going on holiday or such like.

30% chance of 10XP: Declare a compass direction your heading in and how far (in miles and meters). Also declare what sort of terrain you expect you'll be passing through (expect, since it may change).

35% chance of 8XP: Declare what you think your character is seeing. Yes, you'll be making it up mostly - that's why its what the character thinks he's seeing, in case there's something different.

40% chance of 15 XP: Outline your characters thoughts on the dangers in the area. Yeah, I know, you've all gotten into the habit of not giving the GM any bad ideas.

32% chance of 8 XP: Describe your characters pose and position. Mostly just to give the character a bit of spotlight time.

Traveling east towards my homestead, I consider how I'll get past the Great Boneyard. According to what I've heard some horrible evil lurks there, though noone has returned from the place to give any precise description of the evil.

Callan wrote:
Currently, no ones genuinely used it. The original player did add this -

Traveling east towards my homestead, I consider how I'll get past the Great Boneyard. According to what I've heard some horrible evil lurks there, though noone has returned from the place to give any precise description of the evil.

Which takes a few authorship liberties which, given my personal agenda I almost don't notice. Sadly it's hardly rich and very empty of the little details that make really tactile challenges. It didn't really inspire much in me at all - I ended up just throwing in the bone cage attack Diablo has (kind of interested in engaging it more than the comp game did - atleast for something to engage).

Here's something I'd like to ask - he did some exploration, then - did that get punished with a problem given by me? Lets talk in a general sense for a moment - when a player is just doing exploration, is he really mentally prepped for it not only to trigger a problem, but also mentally prepped to think that's a good thing?

I'm thinking on how conservative the exploration is - it just smells of a reward loop, where fabulous, rich stuff gets hit with problems, over time prompting a regression into very tightly controlled, small statements.

Danny K, were you suggesting something like that?

Callan,

Could you put yourself in the player's skin and produce an example of the reply you'd like to see? Like, the perfect hypothetical play. Otherwise, I'm not exactly sure what kind of tactile details you require. (I'd say that the narration you quote immediately gives me some ideas: evil spirits > risk of possesion, bandits hiding on the boneyard and kidnapping people and the like.)

As for the chart, the numbers tell me nothing, but I must say that the idea of a percentage roll is extremly clever. Random, irregular rewards, nice.

Are you using Rifts system, or your own? What is the use of XP in this game? What portion of XP awards do the chart awards make? (From what I know about Rifts, there are those class-based levelling charts there, and XP requirements go in thousands, so the numbers don't look very motivating.)

Danny_K wrote:
Yes, exactly.  It reminds me of that scene in Ghostbusters where the evil god shows up and tells the heroes that it will manifest in whatever form they want... and then destroy them.  You're doing pretty much the same thing as Gozer the Gozerian, asking "how would you like me to hose you today?" 

I'm going to take something I read in Robin Laws' book about GM'ing and try to analyze the power differential between you and the player.  You're playing online with someone you don't know well, you're playing Rifts with all the power-creep that entails, you're playing without a fixed setting as far as I can tell, so he has no way of knowing what's ahead... so far, the advantage is all you.  I don't know how XP works in Rifts (I've never played, just used some of the books for inspiration), but 15 or 30 XP isn't much of a reward in most games I know. Finally, I haven't seen you mention any victory conditions, even ways to win "stages" of the game.

Filip wrote: Could you put yourself in the player's skin and produce an example of the reply you'd like to see? Like, the perfect hypothetical play. Otherwise, I'm not exactly sure what kind of tactile details you require. (I'd say that the narration you quote immediately gives me some ideas: evil spirits > risk of possesion, bandits hiding on the boneyard and kidnapping people and the like.)

Are you using Rifts system, or your own? What is the use of XP in this game? What portion of XP awards do the chart awards make? (From what I know about Rifts, there are those class-based levelling charts there, and XP requirements go in thousands, so the numbers don't look very motivating.)

Callan wrote:
I put this in as a whole new thread:

This helps new, dynamic situations to occur without me having to sit on my lonesome and just make them up over and over.

Each RL day that your not engaged in a scenario, you can do any of the following and then roll percentile on the dice roller to see if you get the XP.

IMPORTANT: I've noticed that if you put an optional thing into a game, gamers tend to ignore it and just do the things they've always been comfortable doing. If you do not engage an scenario or use this table atleast once a week, your out of the game (no reapplication for two weeks). PM me if your going on holiday or such like.

30% chance of 10XP: Declare a compass direction your heading in and how far (in miles and meters). Also declare what sort of terrain you expect you'll be passing through (expect, since it may change).

35% chance of 8XP: Declare what you think your character is seeing. Yes, you'll be making it up mostly - that's why its what the character thinks he's seeing, in case there's something different.

40% chance of 15 XP: Outline your characters thoughts on the dangers in the area. Yeah, I know, you've all gotten into the habit of not giving the GM any bad ideas.

32% chance of 8 XP: Describe your characters pose and position. Mostly just to give the character a bit of spotlight time.

I'd like some opinion on that, to see if atleast forgies would use it a bit and not think it too wacky or unusable.

Callan,

I'm looking at the exchange you presented, and I'm under an impression that it isn't much more "charged" from what the player did. I see prompts in both. Of course, there can always be problems with not catching a prompt.

(Hmm, as a GM I tend to run games without much prep, and if I have a day of creativity, I simply can't run a game. Everything the players do simply bounces of my head then.)

I wonder about the XP motivation.

It isn't doing essentially nothing, the player must devote some time to writing the post. It's as difficult for him as it is for you, since he needs to squeeze some inspiration from himself (normally, he can just react to your challenge and work in a provided context). It isn't really done "only in addition to anything else" cause he could have been playing Diablo instead of writing the post. Not much time, true, but an additional commitment that day ("OMG, I need to think up some narration before I go to bed, to squeeze those 15 points but I have no idea, think, think, think...")

Now I'm not sure if it's only about making the reward bigger.

Also, what about inviting the player to this thread?

Filip wrote:
Callan,

I'm looking at the exchange you presented, and I'm under an impression that it isn't much more "charged" from what the player did. I see prompts in both. Of course, there can always be problems with not catching a prompt.

As soon as the thing has passed, I begin walking in the opposite direction for maybe half an hour. Then I look around, trying to judge which direction might take me home.

I wonder about the XP motivation.

It isn't doing essentially nothing, the player must devote some time to writing the post. It's as difficult for him as it is for you, since he needs to squeeze some inspiration from himself (normally, he can just react to your challenge and work in a provided context). It isn't really done "only in addition to anything else" cause he could have been playing Diablo instead of writing the post. Not much time, true, but an additional commitment that day ("OMG, I need to think up some narration before I go to bed, to squeeze those 15 points but I have no idea, think, think, think...")

Now I'm not sure if it's only about making the reward bigger.

Also, what about inviting the player to this thread?

Glendower wrote: The Palladium XP/level system is completely worthless.  If something is worthless, then it isn't a reward, and they won't care about it.  And they don't care, because, as you said, they're barely using it. 

Instead of XP use "reward points".  Award them on the spot, like scoring points in a computer game.  If they hit 100 points, they win the scenario.  That way they need to take risks and stay away from the protective dialog in order to win.  That reward cycle would work way better, as there is a goal to shoot for (get 100 points!) and a means to achieve the goal (all the stuff you suggested above).

Callan wrote:
See, the concept of 'they hose themselves' isn't invalidated in my mind by this - it just shows I'm applying it inefficiently. Take spiritual attributes in TROS - the player writes down  "Passion: My first love" and he KNOWS he's gunna get hosed for it. It works fine, of course.

The problem with TROS is that the reward of extra dice resolves the mechanical conflict. It's be kind of dumb in gamism to reward hosing oneself by giving enough bonuses to simply erase that hosing. "I create a problem and here's a reward that...solves the problem for you...err, no need to step on up"

To establish some mutual ground, do we both agree there is a purely meta game line planced right in SIS, which deliniates what is challenge and what is exploration? Because without that line - well, it'd be like going to a chess championship and trying to have THE best haircut there as well. It's completely missplaced - as is trying to win at all parts of the SIS. Some of it is just a haircut. We both agree to any of that?

Not to pull out the heavy Forge-speak here, but aren't you mixing two totally different styles (or CA's) here?  Everything you've said so far about this game, including the second paragraph I've quoted here, says you're going for a Gamist effect here

I agree there's a division, but different games will place it differently... I could imagine a swashbuckling game where the quality of your haircut would help you "win" a conflict with a rival, just as much as your Rapier skill.

Also, in a GM-centric game, the GM can move that line pretty much at will, right?  I'm thinking here of all those Old-School D&D modules where the PC's would enter a room with strange and wondrous things... and some of those things were electrified and did massive damage if you touched them.  The unwary player who thinks he's just exploring the cool scenery would suddenly realize he'd screwed up by not checking for traps.  This would be an interesting subject to discuss, but probably not in this forum.

One player, who goes by the handle 9945 rolled once ('m not sure from his input if he thought you only rolled once or if he just used one XP entry). Oh yes, did I mention the characters don't even have names yet. Oh yeah! I'll just delight in any responces that it's a fundimental part of roleplay - do you name your king in chess?

9945 walks thru the deep forest.  He has found a large stick and holds it over his shoulder.  Not the best weapon but at least it was something.  He also has a large rock in his hand ready to throw if need be.  He walked not really know where he was or where he was heading. He hoped to find a city as they at least offered some secruity and perhaps he could find a descent weapon and armor.  As night came he descided to climb up a tree and sleep their.  It might not be comfortable but at least it was safe.

Cool, lets see if we can keep it rolling so we find an interesting situation.

The first thing to remember - if it's not a scenario, you can't lose (your PC can't just die). Try not to be optimal and just explore the world in a dreamlike way.

Two other, new things -
A: Don't state plans. Just do actions - say you climb a tree, rather than saying you climb a tree to be safe.
B: Don't ask questions - like don't ask what the weather is, just say you turn your head up toward the sky and open your eyes, or suchlike.

It might sound a bit wacky, but here's the thing - the only thing a stated plan lets me the GM do is to say if the plan works. I can't add new crazy or valuable stuff to the game world - I can only talk about the plan.

Same with asking questions - if you ask a question my responce can only be to answer it. Adding crazy/valuable stuff is out the window.

It's like regular conversation - if I ask you whether you liked movie X, you can't immediately talk about another movie you've seen (you can only answer if you've liked X or seen X). If I just say that I've seen movie X, that leaves you alot more options as to a responce.

Hopefully you'll take up my invitation to play while using this. If you don't, that's cool, I know it's not the standard thing.