Hello. This is a follow-up to a previous post on my narrativist (?) dungeon game. Before I was calling it "Dungeon Noir," now it's "Dungeon Opera" (you know--like "Space Opera").

I have put off play-testing the game several times because the design seemed incoherent. On the one hand, I seemed to want to create a D&D Heartbreaker; on the other hand, I seemed to want to create a truly original and straightforwardly narrativist fantasy rpg. I have decided to go for the Heartbreaker; there's emotional baggage from years of semi-functional D&D play that needs working through, so here I go.

I am still having a heck of a time figuring out how to come up with scenarios for the game. The basic idea is that the scenarios should consist of info on NPCs (including monsters) who have certain Goals and Relationships, which cause them to interact with the PCs' Goals and Relationships in dynamic and unpredictable ways. So far, so good--my playbook here is right out of Sorcerer, and there's a lot of advice and insight available if this is the kind of play you're after. What I'm having trouble with is figuring out how to make site-based scenarios (you know, like the dungeon crawls and wilderness adventures of yore) that have these dynamic properties. Am I trying to mix oil and water here, or is there a way forward?

By the way, I have deliberately omitted info about the rules of the game, because I'm not sure it's that relevant to my question. The game is a lot like older versions of D&D, with a few semi-major exceptions: all characters have Goals, Relationships, a Back Story, and Humanity (which is deliberately made to stand in the stead of the old "Alignment" idea--in terms of the metaphysics of the setting); characters of all classes have Special Abilities that they spend Action Points to use (there are no skills or class abilities, just these Special Abilities that enable a character to automatically do Something Cool related to his niche); there are D&D-style Ability Scores, but their use is very open-ended--they can be used like Saving Throws in Tunnels & Trolls, which basically means if a player can think of a cool way to use an Ability, then the GM should let him try it, as long as it's semi-plausible.

Regards,
Jon

Hmm... well with the idea of a Humanity score comes a hierachy of What It Means To Be Human. Assuming elves and orcs have a "humanity" score of their own, you want to replace the term with something more concrete and less specific, like "morality."

Following precedents with morality scores, you could draw up a scenario generation formula akin to DitV: the outlying knowledge of the scenario, what tasks with which you have been commissioned or elected to undertake, and what would happen if no one were to interfere. Assuming evil characters are permitted, it also allows an inverse scenario where you have to interfere in order to muck up an otherwise pleasant afternoon. Might be fun for Killing Folk and Taking Their Stuff.

If you really wanna hammer home the heartbreak, why not make a type of narrative bid / debate system involving Monsters and Their Stuff as some kind of stats in and of themselves?

Just a thought. Hope to see more!
-J.

Jon wrote:
I am still having a heck of a time figuring out how to come up with scenarios for the game. The basic idea is that the scenarios should consist of info on NPCs (including monsters) who have certain Goals and Relationships, which cause them to interact with the PCs' Goals and Relationships in dynamic and unpredictable ways. So far, so good--my playbook here is right out of Sorcerer, and there's a lot of advice and insight available if this is the kind of play you're after. What I'm having trouble with is figuring out how to make site-based scenarios (you know, like the dungeon crawls and wilderness adventures of yore) that have these dynamic properties. Am I trying to mix oil and water here, or is there a way forward?

I think it may be oil and water. A dungeon - you have five foot tunnels, you have walls, you have pits, etc. It's just dead in terms of problematic moral issues - its like writing a relationship map full of emotionally tortured heroes and...adding a statue to the map. It can't add to the map, because it can hold no relationship itself. However, it could be added by some hero devoting himself to the statue for whatever reason.

What you might be useful is really imagine each monster, in terms of personality and what they are devoted to. Look through what they care about and find the things that could be the instillations of a dungeon. Scribble them on a sheet of paper to form the map - actually if you do this, these items will be a sort of relationship map as well as your dungeon map.

Jillianaire wrote:
Hmm... well with the idea of a Humanity score comes a hierachy of What It Means To Be Human. Assuming elves and orcs have a "humanity" score of their own, you want to replace the term with something more concrete and less specific, like "morality."

Following precedents with morality scores, you could draw up a scenario generation formula akin to DitV: the outlying knowledge of the scenario, what tasks with which you have been commissioned or elected to undertake, and what would happen if no one were to interfere. Assuming evil characters are permitted, it also allows an inverse scenario where you have to interfere in order to muck up an otherwise pleasant afternoon. Might be fun for Killing Folk and Taking Their Stuff.

If you really wanna hammer home the heartbreak, why not make a type of narrative bid / debate system involving Monsters and Their Stuff as some kind of stats in and of themselves?

talysman wrote:
In other words, each relationship and need can be defined *spatially*, which creates the need for specific areas. The relationship map becomes your dungeon.

Callan wrote:
I think it may be oil and water. A dungeon - you have five foot tunnels, you have walls, you have pits, etc. It's just dead in terms of problematic moral issues - its like writing a relationship map full of emotionally tortured heroes and...adding a statue to the map. It can't add to the map, because it can hold no relationship itself. However, it could be added by some hero devoting himself to the statue for whatever reason.

What you might be useful is really imagine each monster, in terms of personality and what they are devoted to. Look through what they care about and find the things that could be the instillations of a dungeon. Scribble them on a sheet of paper to form the map - actually if you do this, these items will be a sort of relationship map as well as your dungeon map.

rough ideas

The remaining unresolved issue is how to hook the PCs into the lives of the NPCs/Monsters. One option is to give the players a brief description of the major NPCs or Monsters and to simply demand that they come up with an explanation for how their PC's Goals etc. hook into them. The player is forced to get his character involved, but the manner of the involvement is up to him.

I guess the next step is the tedious job of drawing and stocking the Locations for my first playtest run.

Callan wrote:
rough ideas
Some ideas are that the player designs one or two boss monsters as part of char gen - building up monsters with issues gives him points to spend on his char. They might be thematically linked rather than just fiscally, too "I got close quarter fighting when Blak the orc attacked my home town and killed half the people there!"

Meh, that doesn't sound fun. Can't you search yourself for a monster issue "Blak wants to ressurect his dead bride" and work outwards from it.

Jon,

One of my favorite things about the traditional dungeon is that it is a Place, and that place will have resources. Think about what people fight over the the real world: territory, oil, power, wealth, and food. In a dungeon, you have the same needs, but they're in a small space.

One way to set up scenarios for a game that you want driven by story in a dungeon is to make a map of the dungeon, and write what resources are in which area. This can be typical dungeony stuff: gold in one place, free bats to eat in another, a magic healing fountain in another room. Then make up a list of major inhabitants. Each of them needs a resource from someone else, and someone needs their resource where they live. Suddenly, you have a rich group of creatures, all with solid needs tied into each other.

Not to toot my horn here, but I think the GM advice in Donjon might be the best I've written. It's not narrativist, but it has my taint. If any of it helps, I'll be happy.

So are your dungeons natural caverns that are inhabitted by an ecosystem that includes various sentient monsters, or is it more of an evil lair of an arch-mage who has gathered these monsters around him?

If all the monsters are lackeys then they will behave differently - not supposed to eat each other and so on.

I know this may sound a little bit silly but have you thought about thinking of the "site" as a character.  Let's take a look at the cave filled with orcs, trolls, and goblins.  Now, it seems to me that the cave could be a mother-figure for the above mentioned creatures.  In addition, it has been around for a while and probably in an out of the way location. 

So, (going with analogy), you have this weathered old lady who wants to alone and she has some kids taking care of her (vice versa to an extent as well).  She doesn't like strangers but if they flatter her and respect her enough, perhaps they will given some of reward or recogntion from it.  Make too much noise, break off stalagites, etc (disrespect her) and you could have avalanches, attacks from the kids, have an inconvient breeze blow out your torches, etc.

At this point, perhaps it is easier to tie this place into the motivations of the players, using the analogy of the old lady and cave in this particular case.

Hope this helps,

Sean

Clinton wrote:
Not to toot my horn here, but I think the GM advice in Donjon might be the best I've written. It's not narrativist, but it has my taint. If any of it helps, I'll be happy.

stefoid wrote:
So are your dungeons natural caverns that are inhabitted by an ecosystem that includes various sentient monsters, or is it more of an evil lair of an arch-mage who has gathered these monsters around him?

If all the monsters are lackeys then they will behave differently - not supposed to eat each other and so on.

This is just a random idea, but have you thought about using something akin to the scene framing rules from "Contenders"? So, players call for a "Dungeon" Scene, and can set up the stakes however they like it.  The other players can put their own characters into the same dungeon if they choose, perhaps in order to accrue resources (in-game or 'meta') to further their own goals? You can intersperse this with "Inn" scenes, "Wilderness" scenes, and whatever else you need.  Each type of scene provides a certain kind of resource, required for completing a goal, and the players can write their characters to those scenes however they choose. These scenes can be set in recurring locations, or in entirely new locations, as required by the players.

So, Brakk the Mighty wants to ressurect his dead grandfather.  First, he declares an "Inn" scene, where he will accrue "rumour" points, which can buy him a "dungeon" scene later.  Melhendra the Mysterious is still tired from her last adventure, so she puts herself in the scene, hoping to accrue "carousing" points, which can buy off her fatigue and injury.  So Brakk and Melhendra meet in the inn, and a scene ensues.

Later, Brakk spends his "rumour" points to buy a "dungeon" scene.  He says it's the "Caves of Chaos" where shards of other realities are mined from the rocks.  It's rumoured that anything can be found within its dark halls.  If he beats the dunbeon, he can find a way to ressurect his grandfather.  Koli the Trickster is working on his own quest, but he is yet a novice.  He inserts himself into the scene to accrue "experience" points, which he can use to imporve skills and the like.  Brakk turns a corner in the Caves of Chaos, and meets his old ally, Koli.  They continue their adventure together.

So, basically, every type of scene has a "primary" reward, which is gained by the originator of the scene, and a "secondary" reward, which is gained by the extra characters in the scene.  Both kinds of reward are required to achieve a goal, ensuring that characters have

This might be quite a serious deviation from your original goal with the game, but this sounds like a workable system to me.

Cross posted! I didn't realize your goal was a single dungeon, but I think the idea still stands.  You'd have to change the way "Dungeon" scenes rewarded players, though, so that they just provide another kind of resource, rather than being the primary means of achieving a goal.

I'm wary of systems that have a stat for "Humanity" - though this may just be from being burned by too much V:tM.  It's been my experience that having a reliable gauge of a character's humanity is an effective way to make players STOP worrying about it.  My most evocative moments of personal horror in V:tM were achieved once we dropped the humanity system.  It's more scary when there are no consequences for being evil, other than evil itself.  This is turning into a digression though.  Perhaps I should make an AP post.

Simon wrote:
Cross posted! I didn't realize your goal was a single dungeon, but I think the idea still stands.  You'd have to change the way "Dungeon" scenes rewarded players, though, so that they just provide another kind of resource, rather than being the primary means of achieving a goal.

I'm wary of systems that have a stat for "Humanity" - though this may just be from being burned by too much V:tM.  It's been my experience that having a reliable gauge of a character's humanity is an effective way to make players STOP worrying about it.  My most evocative moments of personal horror in V:tM were achieved once we dropped the humanity system.  It's more scary when there are no consequences for being evil, other than evil itself.  This is turning into a digression though.  Perhaps I should make an AP post.

What this seems like to me is that you have a very strong idea about how your game should feel, but you're struggling to write mechanics that really reinforce that feeling in play. Specifically, you have strong ideas about the dungeon as the site of adventure and excitement, as well as it being the "solution to all the PCs' problems" in a way.  Have you considered making this dungeon an explicit part of your setting? So there's a single, vast dungeon in the setting, which is the site of all the adventures.  This dungeon contains, or is rumoured to contain, almost anything the players can imagine.  It's the focal point of great pilgramages of young heroes, seeking adventure, fortune, and possibly something more.  This gives you an elegant reason for all the PCs to have strong motivations for going into the dungeons, as well as tying the game to a specific site, allowing for recurring NPC characters, a staple of "Opera" type games.  Also, it allows the players to play idealistic youths in a morally complex, cosmopolitan setting, which is rife for the kind of compromises of integrity and corruption that you want to include in your game.

I've posted my own feelings about "Humanity" and "Morality" stats over in Actual Play, and Ron's given some really useful feedback to me, with some great practical applications to game design, if you want to check it out.  I welcome your own interpretation.

I'm glad you liked my idea, even if it's not what you were looking for.  I got really excited about it when I though of it, so maybe it will see light in some other form.

Cheers,

Simon

Simon wrote:
What this seems like to me is that you have a very strong idea about how your game should feel, but you're struggling to write mechanics that really reinforce that feeling in play.