Years ago, I came up with the idea of having an RPG co-operative where you took on the roles of heads of noble households, moving on to playing their children, their children's children and so on.

Full of enthusiasm, I created my own system, got a group together, and played.  After a few months, the game folded, and I put everything away for a year or two.  Then, once again fired up, I wrote another system, got a group together, and on we played.  That, too, failed after a while, and the game went back on the shelf to collect dust.

Since that time, I've been introduced to the Forge, and become very interested in a number of Forge games (PtA, the Roach, Cold City, tMW, Contenders, to name a few).  It's not stopped me playing and running many more "traditional" games, but it's allowed me to think about things differently.

Following the Christmas rush period, I found myself dwelling on Bloodlines once again, and, without looking at my previous work, worked on a new design, inspired by some of the Forge games.

So, here I am on the "First Thoughts" forum, clutching some Word docs of rules and notes, and looking for a helping hand.

…

Aim
A co-operative roleplaying game where the players take play the heads of noble houses, control the houses themselves and create the map of the lands they find themselves in.  The game is (currently) GM-less, rather a big step for me, with the "King" being an NPC controlled by the players.

Initially, it is about creating and expanding a community in the face of an unknown and possibly hostile environment.  As time progresses, and generations pass, the original laws of the founders might become restrictive and outdated.  How the players, their characters and the society they create react to all of this should make for interesting stories further down the line when the day-to-day threats to survival are not as pressing.

Rules/Concepts
- Heroes (main characters) but one "stat".  It is a "do everything" stat, very close to PtA's Screen Presence, based on the age of the character (older characters having a higher stat than younger characters).
- Heroes and Houses have traits similar to Cold City (as I understand it – my copy should be with me any day now).  In other words, they provide a bonus dice in appropriate circumstances.  Heroes also have a negative trait that would remove a dice in certain circumstances.
- These traits can be applied across "arenas" (e.g. a Hero's trait of "Hands On" could be used to assist the House build a new blacksmith's, and the House's trait of "Skilled Archers" could aid the Hero on a personal quest).
- There is also a token-based game currency, similar in some ways to PtA's Fanmail, which is used to boost Hero and House abilities and alter the game world (to create new elements or alter existing ones).
- Each game turn takes a year, allowing you to play out a character's life over a number of sessions before moving on to offspring.  It's still early days in playtesting, but I reckon you could get something like 6 or so years fitted into a 3 hour session.

…

Questions
- Is this an interesting concept?  Would people play such a game?

- Would anyone be interested in discussing it / playtesting it?  I'd warn you all that (so far), it's had the grand total of two 2-player playtests.  I'm trying to pull together another group to give it a run with 3 or 4 players (something around the "usual" number I envisage for the game), but it's taking a little time to schedule in.

Now that I'm posting this out on the Forge, I've also got some worries that the current mechanics might be "stealing" too much of Matt Wilson's and Malcolm Craig's hard work.  I'd appreciate thoughts on that as well.

Any other thoughts or questions are appreciated, as I'm sort of feeling my way out and don't necessarily know what questions I should be asking myself.

Many thanks.

Mark

Mark,

Yes, the idea sounds interesting.  No, I wouldn't worry about "stealing" too many mechanics, as long as you put it in the acknowledgments.

I think if you want more feedback, it would be a good idea to post the playtest document of the complete rules so that people can read it through and/or test it.  I can catch a glimpse from your description, but it's not structured enough to really figure out exactly how the pieces work together.

Good luck with the project! :)

Hello Christian.

I'm rather embarassed at the documents I've got.  I'm just rushing through the "main" one now (all 5 pages) to get it looking a little more presentable.  I then just need to find somewhere to host it, and I'll post a link.

Thank you for the encouragement!

SETTING
This would be decided on and created by the players, as play continues.  However, my "default" would be a Medieval-fantasy setting.  I'd tend to give the various races a twist, but that's a personal preference.

The assumed starting position would be:
King & nobles, with whatever retinue they have, flee defeat, hoping to establish themselves somewhere new.  A storm forces them to "crash land" on a deserted stretch of coast.

All they start with is a tiny settlement.  As for what happens 10, 20 or 100 years down the line, who knows?

MAP
The players have an initially rather bare A3-sized piece of paper as their map, comprising a few features that they've agreed on (a river here, a forest there, etc).  Players would take it in turns to add some extra features (islands, ruins, specific resources, etc), probably until they've got three each or so, and then they can place their initial settlement on the map.

You'd want to be using pencils for this, as there'll be opportunities (and disasters) to change the face of the map.

RULES
• The game uses d10s.  Roll a number of d10, normally requiring 6+ for successes.  The number of successes gained is important.  Their value is not.
• Each Trait can be used once/year (i.e. once each game turn).
• Traits can be applied to any arena (Hero / House / King), if there is an appropriate justification.
• A Trait = 1 dice to roll.
• Influence can be spent at 1:1 to get a bonus dice for Personal projects.
• Influence can be spent at 2:1 to get a bonus dice for House projects (e.g. building creation).
• Influence can be spent at 3:1 to alter the game world (e.g. expanding the forest).
• During the Court Phase, for 1 Influence, the player can suggest an idea of their own rather than randomly rolling.
• During the Personal Phase, for 1 Influence, a rumour can be created that can form the basis for an adventure for the Heroes.

Hero (Head of Household)
• 2 Traits
• 1 Bloodline Trait (a trait that is possessed by all Heroes of that House).
• 1 Negative Trait
• Power: 1 dice/20 years ("Screen Presence").
• Votes: 5 (base)
• NB: a Kinsman becoming the Hero (upon the death of the previous Hero) immediately gains 1 Trait (if they are missing any) and the Bloodline Trait.  Their Power and Votes are set as per Hero rules, although they retain any Bonus Votes they accumulated.

Example Character Traits (Positive)
Ancestral Armour, Quick, Rich, Seer/Fortune teller, Hunter, Good Commander, Charming, Berserker, House Sword, Calming Influence, Priest, Blood Oath, Famous Warrior, Negotiator, Teacher, etc.

Example Character Traits (Negative)
Coward, Sickly / Diseased, Bloodlust, Brash, Alcoholic, Unreliable, Headstrong, Addiction, Weak Heart, Lazy, Lost Limb, Selfish, Poor, Blood Oath, Lame, Nightmares, Sinner, Haunted, etc.

Kinsman (Household/Family Member)
• 2 Traits (max)
• 1 Negative Trait
• Power: 1 dice/20 years ("Screen Presence").
• Votes: 1 (from age 10)

House
• A House gains 1 Trait for every odd-numbered Max Influence.
• These Traits cannot be used whilst the Max Influence is below the required threshold.
Influence / No. House Traits
1 / 1
3 / 2
5 / 3
7 / 4
9 / 5
11 / 6

Example House Traits
Carpenter, Brewer, Blacksmith, Soldier, Stonemason, Apothecary, Glassblower, Miner, Archer, Potter, Tailor

Influence
• Regenerates at 1 Influence/year.
• Population = Max Influence.
• These are "Plot Points".  The cost is based on what level the effect is affecting: 3 to have "the cruel hand of destiny" do something, 2 to have your House do something, 1 to have your Hero/Kinsman do something.
• Influence provides a dice to roll, not an automatic effect (the exception is spending 1 Influence in the Court Phase or Personal Phase to suggest an idea of your own).
3 “Cruel hand of Fate”
2 House
1 Hero/Kinsman

King
• 1 Trait/20 years
• 1 Negative Trait
• Power: 1 dice/20 years

Damage
• Each success by which the Threat beats you causes 1 Damage.  Heroes & Kinsmen suffer damage differently to Houses.
Hero Damage
• Lose 1 Power/Damage.
• You may elect to take a permanent Negative Trait to reduce the Damage by 1, but can only do this once each time the Hero/Kinsman suffers damage.  If their Power is reduced to 0, they die.
House Damage
• ½ the damage permanently reduces Max and Current Influence on a 1:1 basis (population are killed).
• ½ the damage damages the buildings.  Buildings are “damaged” when they take damage up to their level, and “destroyed” if they take up to twice their level.  Any leftover damage must be applied to another building.
• “Damaged” buildings cannot function until they are repaired.  This requires a number of years equal to the amount of damage taken.
• “Destroyed” buildings are useless ruins beyond repair and are removed from the map.

YEARLY PHASES
1. ADVISOR: One player is the Advisor for this year, and will have the final say.  Next year, the Advisor is the person to the left of the previous year’s Advisor.
2. REFRESH: Regain 1 Influence.  Each 5th year, Max Influence increases by 1, and an extra Influence is regained.
3. AGEING: Check for Ageing effects.  These results apply immediately.
4. COURT: King's Court & voting on "idea".
5. EVENT: Check for Chaositer event.  Roll 1d.  If the result is equal to or lower than the number of years since the last Event, an Event occurs.
6. PERSONAL: Personal projects ("adventures", try for family, etc.).  The King may also carry out personal projects, but only if there is no current “idea”.
7. HOUSE: House projects (building new resources).

1. ADVISOR

2. REFRESH

3. AGEING
• Starting at age 45, roll 1d.  If you roll a 1, you gain a Negative Trait (due to old age).  If not, each successive year, you roll again, adding 1 to the chance of gaining a Negative Trait.
• Once you have gained that Negative Trait, the "counter" resets to 1, and you roll again next year.  If you roll a 1, the character dies (due to old age).  If not, each successive year, you roll again, adding 1 to the chance of the character dying.
• The base age at which these tests are made is 45+ the highest level healing/health-related structure in the settlement (e.g. apothecary, hospital, surgery, etc).  In other words, a level 3 Apothecary would mean ageing rolls only occurred at age 48 (45+3).

4. COURT
• Every year, the court randomly have one idea that they bring to the Noble Houses in the hope of having the King back the scheme.  Roll 1d and consult the table below for examples.
1 Law (a new law, courthouse, gallows, etc.)
2 Protection (walls, guards, militia training, etc.)
3 Calm (garden, statue, pond, etc.)
4 Body (health, apothecary, sanitation, herbalist)
5 Aggression (barracks, cavalry, invasion, clear-out)
6 Faith & Soul (temple, pilgrimage, burial, vision, almshouse)
7 Festival (celebration, remembrance, carnival)
8 Heart (pub, theatre, entertainment, etc.)
9 Prevention (granary, watchtower, fire ditch, well, etc.)
10 Recognition (promotion, medal, court appointment, etc.)
• Instead of randomly generating an idea, a player can spend 1 Influence to suggest an idea of their own.
• The idea is debated on by the various Heroes, and then voted on.  These votes represent how much each Hero (and Kinsman) can sway the King's mind.
• 1d is then rolled to determine whether the King is prepared to back the idea:
Support King opposes on a...
All   1
90% 1-2
80% 1-2
70% 1-3
60% 1-4
50% 1-5
40% 1-6
30% 1-7
20% 1-8
10% 1-8
None 1-9
• If the idea is successful, the King does the following:
• Provides 1d towards enacting the idea.
• Whoever (successfully) contributes the most towards an event (measured in terms of successes):
• permanently gains +1 Vote to either their Hero or one of their Kinsman.  Bonus votes are lost when that character dies.
• regains 1 extra Influence the following year (up to their Max Influence).

5. EVENT
• Use standard pack of cards + 2 jokers.
• Draw 1 card.
• The suit represents the type of threat:
Hearts: hearts & minds (e.g. revolution, tragic/illicit love affairs, corruption, madness, superstitions, treason, etc.)
Diamonds: crime & punishment (arson, theft, abuse, smugglers, treason, blood feud, criminal gangs, etc.)
Clubs: enemy (fleeing army, fugitives/refugees, bandits, dwarves, elves, orcs, dragon, etc.)
Spades: natural disaster (fire, plague, famine, drought, flood, livestock disease, etc.)
• The value represents the scale of the threat:
Value
2 - 10% of Players' Max Influence
3 - 20% of Players' Max Influence
4 - 40% of Players' Max Influence
5 - 60% of Players' Max Influence
6 - 80% of Players' Max Influence
7 - 100% of Players' Max Influence
8 - 100% of Players' Max Influence
9 - 120% of Players' Max Influence
10 - 140% of Players' Max Influence
Jack - 160% of Players' Max Influence
Queen - 180% of Players' Max Influence
King - 190% of Players' Max Influence
Ace - 200% of Players' Max Influence
• If you draw a joker, draw 2 additional cards.  These form 2 Threats that have to be faced.
• The value of the Threat is compared to total Max Influence / 2 to give you the no. of dice.
• The Threat comes from one specified area, chosen by the players (as always, the Advisor has the final say).
• Everyone takes an active part in the conflict, which occurs during the House Phase (phase 7).
• An undefeated Threat remains on the map, and can normally only be removed by Hero involvement in a Personal adventure (i.e. in Phase 6).
• Regardless of whether the Threat is defeated or not, the players must pass a new law into being.  This law must relate to the Threat, normally with an aim to preventing reoccurrence of that Threat.  The purpose of this law is to build up a body of laws that, to start with, help the community but might, in time, interfere with future generations.  Use the court voting system & King’s resistance to determine whether the law is acceptable, with the King's resistance altering the law (phase 4).

6. PERSONAL
Gaining Kin
• Identical system for births, marriages, recruiting, etc.
• Personal Project.  Roll Power + any relevant Traits vs. TN 6.
No. Successes:
0 - Failure
1 - Kinsman with 1 Negative Trait
2 - Kinsman with 1 Negative Trait & 1 Positive Trait
3 - Kinsman with 1 Negative Trait & 2 Positive Trait

Learning a Trait
• Identical system for Hero or Kin.
• Personal Project.  Roll Power + any relevant Traits vs. TN 6.
No. Successes
0-1 - Failure
2+ - Gain 1 Trait

Changing a Trait
• Identical system for Hero or Kin.
• Personal Project.  Roll Power + any relevant Traits vs. TN 6.
No. Successes:
0 - Failure
1 - Change Trait but also gain a Negative Trait
2+ - Change Trait

Adventuring
• During the Personal Phase, for 1 Influence, a rumour can be created that can form the basis for an adventure for the Heroes.
• When investigated, the value and type of Threat is determined exactly as it would be for the Events Phase (phase 5).
• The Threat compared to total Hero Power to give you the no. of dice for “adventures”.  If the Heroes managed to defeat a Threat that was harder than them, they gain a 1-shot resource (1d) to apply on something later, provided it can be justified.

7. HOUSE
Buildings
Automatically:
• 1 King's House
• 1 Noble's House
• 1 House / Population

Creating a New Building
• Requires 1 success at TN 5 for level 1 Building.
• A new building is ½cm x ½cm (¼”x¼” )per level (i.e. the size of a hole punch hole).  Therefore, a level 2 would be ½cm x 1cm (¼”x ½”).
• A wall is 2cm (1”) long (½+½+½+½ - enough to surround a level 1 structure).
• Player announces either Rush Job (must get all successes on first roll, or there is no progress) or Ongoing Project (gets successes over a period of years, and the project grows at a max of 1 success/year).

TNs [Target Numbers]
• The further from the primary settlement, the harder it is to do anything, as manpower/resources/etc have to travel further out.
• The settlement is formed by the King’s building.  Any building within 1cm (½") of the King’s building is part of the settlement, as is any building within 1cm (½") of them, etc.
• These same TNs apply to getting resources from far-off places (e.g. wood when far from the forest).

TN Range from settlement
5 Inside settlement
6 2 cm (1”) from settlement
7 4 cm (2”) from settlement
8 6 cm (3”) from settlement
9 8 cm (4”) from settlement
10 10 cm (5”) from settlement

...

My apologies for dropping it all here, but I'm suffering from a brainfart and couldn't even think of where to begin for webhosting!

Thanks.

I'm currently looking at GMless game designs as well.  One thing that has struck me with GMless games is that there's much less incentive for creating a "Shared imagined space" - the fictional stuff that the players make up that explains what all the dice rolling is about.  With a GM saying "There's an orc in front of you, what do you do?" it's pretty hard to avoid an SIS.  With the rules that you've presented, it seems like players could play it a lot more like a board game (I'm reminded of "A Game of Thrones"). Since the rules provide so much information about what is happening, there's little motivation for the players to elaborate on this, and it seems like their contribution would be pretty much limited to adding colour.  It seems like you've replaced the GM with a large number of random charts, and I'm not sure that's the way to go.  Rather than having the game inflict challenges on the players, whcih they must overcome, I think a better model is to have players inflict challenges on themselves, because that's how they get the resources they need.

I really like your ideas though, and the game concept is solid.  I like your traits system for characters.  For some reason I find the idea of "bloodline traits" very exciting.  It's something about the way it lets you have a really strong connection to the previous characters. 

Overall, my suggestion is that you need to strip this back to what's really essential for your game, and go from there.

Thanks for your kind words and advice, Simon.

It seems that I've still got quite a bit of old-style baggage with me that I need to kick a couple of times.

Your point about the lack of incentive to create SIS is a good one.  I hadn't thought of that intially, but I can see what you mean.

Looking at it again, I do need to trim back those random tables or get rid of them.  Initially, one of my playtesters was very keen on having a multitude of random elements, from character traits to incoming threats, etc.  In hindsight, I'd rather be able to play with a much reduced random element.

I need to strip things back a bit more and crystallise my ideas better.  Unfortunately, with the prep I'm doing for my Live game, that will have to wait until after Saturday.  That, and I've found I often get better results when I discuss/debate something with others.  I just flounder about in Ivory Tower of Ultimate Creativeness.

For my playtest next Thursday, there should be 3 or 4 of us, and I'll apply the following changes to get things moving in the right direction:
- the Advisor (rotating player) get to determine what idea is presented to the King's Court, rather than randomly determining it.
- Events will, similarly, be determined by the Advisor.
- I'll worry less about distances and sizes, allowing players to gauge is as they see fit.

I'll try to pull out a few things that I still quite like, and my reasons:
- ageing: theoretically the character can last out 20 years, but the first failed roll (& new negative trait) suddenly concentrates the mind, as there is a very finite number of years left, and no "safety net".
- Lending someone else Traits/Influence: not only does it open up more(?)narrative options, but given the crossover and "fixed cost" nature of it, it is easy to determine what it's worth (and how much they owe you).
- Random element to the King: I like the idea that whilst the players control this NPC, the control isn't total, allowing for "curveballs", ensuring that the setting isn't completely democratic.

I have one question, though, that I could do with some ideas about:
- If the players set their own/one another's challenges, what is a reasonable way to determine the difficulty of the challenge?  Should I/we just arbitrarily decide on this, determined by story-need, or would you recommend some sort of guidelines?

Thanks!

Mark,

I read over the rules and had a bunch of small questions, but I think Simon is right in that we should focus on the big picture first.  Here's your mission statement:

Initially, it is about creating and expanding a community in the face of an unknown and possibly hostile environment.  As time progresses, and generations pass, the original laws of the founders might become restrictive and outdated.  How the players, their characters and the society they create react to all of this should make for interesting stories further down the line when the day-to-day threats to survival are not as pressing.

This is interesting.  One game you should check out is Hero's Banner from Tim Koppang, which handles multi-generational play in an elegant way. 

I like the collective mapping aspect of your game.  I suspect that will work very well.  You have specific references regarding scale, which I think may be a mistake - why not allow the game to handle vast empires or tiny feifdoms, as the players choose to sketch?  This also goes for initial situation.

I'm still really interested in this idea.  I think it has a really interesting focus, and I'm looking forward to seeing where you go with it.  Here are a few more ideas which you can do with as you wish:

The things that seem key to me are:
- the map of the realm
- the book of laws
- the roles of authority in the realm

Anders Larsen has talked about a game he is writing, where a map which is drawn during play forms a key feature of the game (And he should really keep posting about it - enquiring minds want to know).  I think you could do something similar in your game.  Even if it's just a way of ensuring that players referr to the same places in their descriptions of events, it has a very powerful feeling, drawing new things onto a map that becomes game canon.  I can imagine very exciting conflicts about who gets this right.

The book of laws sounds like nothing I know of in other games.  It's inherantly exciting to me to think of inscribing laws into a book, which will affect the game world forever more.  It would be even more exciting if these laws could have major effects on how the game is played.  I can imagine very exciting conflicts about who gets to write new laws, or expunging old ones.

The roles of authority, such as the "adviser" you mention, are a key concept, I think.  Rather than having this pass around the table in turns, I think it would be great if the player characters bid their power to assume these roles.  Have you played "a Game of Thrones"? It's a board game with no random elements, and many key game functions (who go first, who wins draws, etc) are decided by the player who holds a certain role of authority in the game.  I can see this being mechanically useful, as well as being a great way to bring in some more story-based elements.  If my character is the new Earl of Pembrook, that's cool, but if he's the new Earl of Pembrook, who must fight to retain the position of "adviser" that has been held by his family for generations, that's much more involving for me as a player.

Some other ideas:

Tying "rounds" in your game to "years" in the setting is gold, and you should keep it forever.

"Princes Kingdom" has some nifty effects for aging, where older characters are more powerful, but also more troublesome.  You could look to it for inspiration.

I think a great way to bring in more SIS is for each player to introduce "trouble" to the other players, incorporating the map and the book of laws in their description.  They could act as a mini GM for the "trouble" scene, and the outcome could determine what kind of rewards the player gets.  So, for example, a player could introduce the situation "bandits are attacking the woodsmen in the East Wood.  The law forbids anyone to go armed in the woods, because of our treaty with the elves. A child has been kidnapped, and a mob is forming to go after him."  And the other players (perhaps all the players?) must resolve this problem somehow, using their traits, helping each other, and so on.  So, someone might say, "Ok, I'll go down there to talk to the mob, surely I can convince them to leave this problem to me... I'll roll my "Voice of Reason" trait."

Thank you all for your input.  This was the bit of posting here that I worried about and wanted: the clear direct questions to help me focus the game, but would clearly indicate the mountains of work that were going to be needed.

I really appreciate that you're identifying the key points that I'm aiming for, but that I was having a hard time finding.

Your thoughts are already getting me to see how I can refine and clarify what I'm trying to do here.  It's going to take me a few days now to go over all your responses, and see how to apply them.

Christian:
Wow.  Talk about scaring me and getting me focused at once!  As you pointed out, I hadn’t really thought about the laws, even though it was one of my key aims.

This is the meat I was hoping for: people pointing out the obvious to me that I haven't noticed.  Thank you. 

Your three questions are excellent for getting me thinking about the important parts of this game.

Jason:
I've heard good things of Hero's Banner, and have been reading AP posts.  It sounded fascinating.

Yes, the idea of scale will be dropped.  Even in the playtests, before I codified the measurements, we just roughly gauged sizes and scale by waving and pointing.

Thanks to the input from the Forge, I realising that I've got to resist adding too much baggage.  The same goes for things like the initial situation.  I'd intended it to be one of a number of examples.  However, as it was my starting point, I wanted to make sure my game could cope with that.

Simon:
Christian's point about me not addressing the laws had me banging my head trying to work it all out.  I'd always assumed that the players would need to create the body of laws before breaking them.

I never even thought of turning the idea on its head and assuming a body of laws, and then empowering the players to make up "spurious" laws for the purposes of story.  The sound you can hear is me swiping that concept with a happy grin.  Thank you!