Hello!

A rule question popped up last time I played.

Do Moon characters move to the Mistaken part of the Cosmos when the Mistaken follows a suggestion with "we shall see what comes of it", do they just temporarily get control of the character for that conflict or is it a permanent Moon-suggestion/Mistaken-follow-up that could break down at any time?

Example that happened in our last game:

Heka was coming home from exile after inadvertently killing his tyrant father. I (as the Mistaken) narrated that he stumbles upon a demon assaulting a lovely woman. Of course the Heart player immediately sprung to action to deliver the woman and I concede the victory with a "but only if both of you fall deep in love".
I figured this would give control of the character to the New Moon, but I had introduced her and had evil plans for her. Officially, we had to wait for an experience roll to add character to the cosmos, right?
Anyway, I did keep control of the lady, stating openly that something nasty would happen even if she was sincerely nice.
I proposed that the characters sleep together... and Heka realize afterwards that it actually was his mother!
The Heart was okay (didn't challenge it, except he decided to not reveal the truth to his mother who had not recognized him) and I was satisfied with this oedipal plot, suggesting that the character go into the New Moon section.

I realize that this is a bit different to my theoretical question since the Mistaken introduced a character probably best suited to the New Moon, rather than picking up a character already placed in the New Moon. Nevertheless, I'd appreciate some feedback as this process felt awkward to me.

Wow.

Uh, okay.  Let's see if I can unravel this.  There's a fair number of misconceptions here.

So you frame a scene and have an unknown, unnamed female character in it.  Sounds like a perfect character for control by the new moon.  However, the character can still be controlled by the Mistaken, but don't do this accidentally.  Turn to the New Moon and say (loud enough for the Heart to hear) that this woman is actually yours to control.  By doing this, you are making a statement that either she is a demon or she is actively seeking to do the protagonist harm.  There is no other possible means of maintaining control, so if she is "sincerely nice" she is in control of one moon or another.  You are not a game master and it is not your job to keep all the good parts for your own control.  As a Mistaken, you are already given a large amount of power.  Your ideas cannot trump other players' ideas.

Now, in the case that she is not actually a demon, the Heart can place her where-ever in the Cosmos they want to.  So your initial judgment about the character may be, simply, wrong.  It's up to the Heart to say.  The only means that the Mistaken can forcibly seize control of a character out of another section of the cosmos is via demonic possession.

There is no restriction whatsoever on when the Heart may change or add to the Cosmos.  I don't know where this "wait until experience" bit comes from.

Does this all parse?  The answer to your question is "neither."

yrs--
--Ben

Ah, the knots in my mind!

Thanks for your reply Ben. I also reread parts of the rules. Let me see if I get this straight:

• Anybody may introduce new characters and then the Heart assigns them to the Cosmos or gives control to the Moons according to gender. The newly assigned guide then fleshes out the character in those regards that where not covered by the introduction.
• The oedipal plot, even though being "bad" for the Protagonist, should legally have been introduced by the New Moon, hoping for the Mistaken or the Heart to accept or at least take it into conflict. The Mistaken cannot, barring the exception of demonic possession, launch a conflict to establish such a tragic thing. He can at best defend such an idea on the New Moon's behalf or perhaps suggest it.
• An active player can only make a conflict statement implying action of a character in another player's cosmos with the approval of that player. Same goes for modifying the "plot importance" (ie revealing that the lady is Heka's mother).

If this sounds like I'm expressing the same thing multiple times it's because it helps me to latch on to the various implications.

Would this have been okay?

Mistaken: And so it was that amidst the pillars of ice, Heka happens to surprise a demon attacking his mother, but they don't recognize each other at first. The stress of the situation, the years of exile and magical treatments to sustain youth are blurring his memory. She's not a demon, not possessed and is friendly.
Heart: Fine, I'll be placing her in the New Moon then.
(Skip passage where Heka delivers his mom.)
New Moon: Ha! The two characters fall in love! (At this stage, the Mistaken controls neither character so he couldn't assert this.)
Heart: But it was no matter.
Mistaken: We shall see what comes of it.

The phrases in bold are the kind of passages that seem problematic to me according to the guidance rules, yet at least the second one seems to be perfectly valid (there's a similar example in the book).
If the first passage is not okay, we can always treat the confusion that reigns between the two characters as a demon in its own right (this would mean that in order for the Mistaken to push for internal conflicts, we consider that the Protagonist's shortcomings are always due to demons and not really his own, except if the Heart is doing the Mistaken's job).

I'm obviously still knotted up in misconceptions, because I can't decide what to think of these situations.
Perhaps a little analysis via Ron's four aspects of authority would help me to get at the underlying principles of the rules.

Thanks for your time!

Cristoph --

There's definitely a disconnect somewhere.

I'd love to talk about Polaris authority with regard to Ron's four aspects (which is a fascinating discussion) but this is absolutely not the thread for it.  What we need to do in this thread is not highly technical theoretical discussion but just make sure that you are clear on the basic rules.

So let's take a brief recap of the Polaris guidance rules.

Absent a key phrase:

The Heart guides the protagonist and his actions.
The Mistaken guides all demons, plus antagonists and the environment.
The New Moon guides all those that the knight has a close personal relationship with that are not demons, plus any minor female characters.
The Full Moon guides all those that the knight has a structured, formal relationship with that are not demons, plus any minor male characters.

Please take careful note that whether or not something is "bad" for the protagonist doesn't enter into control.  Antagonists can be helpful at times, demons can be friends and lovers and allies, and close relationships can make life much, much harder.

Now, if you'll note, this can't be the end of the story.  There needs to be some way for these realms to interact.  Fortunately, the rules provide for this as well.  Any realm can effect any other realm like this: The player describes how something within her realm effects something else, and the result.

So "the two characters fall in love" is (absent a key phrase) never legal to state.  It's really important that you understand this.  Let's look at some ways that each player could legally have the knight fall in love with another character.  These are examples, not restrictions.

Heart: I look at him and fall deeply in love.  I must have him!
Mistaken: You look at him and the demon mist in the air twists your sight, so that he is the most beautiful thing in the world to you.  You fall in love.
New Moon or Full Moon: You look at me and I am so beautiful that you fall instantly in love.

Do you see that in each case, the player is narrating how something within their own realm affects the protagonist?  That's really really important to your question.

I'm going to go on and describe how key phrases play into this, but first I want you to read this whole beginning part again, and tell me whether or not you understand it.  If you don't, please don't read the next part, as it will certainly only confuse you.

--

Okay, now let's talk about the role of key phrases with this.  There are three key phrases that can introduce new elements to the fiction: "And so it was," "but only if," and "and furthermore."

When you use one of these key phrases, you can specify parts of the fiction that are not normally under your control.  For instance, as Mistaken, it is totally fine to start a scene like so "and so it was that you came across your mother being attacked by a demon, and don't recognize her" even though the mother isn't under your guidance.  Later in the scene, it is not okay to do this without using one of the other phrases to back you up, which means either that your contribution can be refused / blocked by your opposite number, or that it costs you resources to input.

Here's another checkpoint: Is this clear so far?  If it is, I'll address your specific situation.  If it isn't, we need to do more work.

yrs--
--Ben

Yes, this is very helpful Ben. Thanks for the time you're putting into this!

Let's see if I understood why "the two characters fall in love" is not legal.

It is not legal because it does not state how the speaker's character affects the other character. It's just an abstract effect which leaves things open and thus makes a general mess about the player interactions the fiction is supposed to generate.

Whereas the three examples you stated clearly show how one realm affects the other, and thus makes it clear for the players what can be done about it (going into conflict if necessary).

And with the right key phrases I can enter the other player's realm because the interaction is now clearly covered by the rules and I can't mess up his part without a cost or further negotiation.

The reminder that the question of what is "bad" is irrelevant to control of characters was also very useful.

Okay, now that you've got all that, I'll present a rules-legal version of your situation.  Now, as it turns out, there's a very large number of ways that the thing could play out legally.  In this version, I'm assuming that the Mistaken wants to carry out this plan without letting the Heart in on the joke.

M: And so it was that as Sir Example trudged through the snows back towards Southwatch, he came across a beautiful girl being attacked by a horrific demon (describes demon.)

H: Leaping forward, I cut off the demon's head with a single stroke from my sword!

M: But only if you and the girl fall deeply and passionately in love.

H: And that was how it happened.

(NM and Heart play out scene.  The characters have sex.)

M: (spends some appropriate theme) And furthermore, she is your mother, who you did not recognize.

H: God DAMN it not again!

So the problem with my example was that I didn't use a conflict phrase to reveal the lady's true identity?
And I should have done the same for suggesting that they have sex before that (because it was not my character to control)?

As for alternatives, I can see the following:

The Mistaken could have framed the scene something like: "And so it was that Sir Example was screwing fervently in the icy wastes with a lovely stranger." This would probably put things rolling rapidly (I think a lot of Hearts would want to justify these actions) and then the Mistaken could follow up with the critical revelation.

And here a version where the same fiction might result without a devilish plan from the Mistaken:

The New Moon could declare the love between the two (or reveal that she is the mother) without having to use a conflict phrase, and then, if necessary, the Mistaken could back it up with "we shall see what comes of it".

Does this look okay?

We played again last Tuesday, and we discussed those points you explained to me. I have the feeling that the Moons had much more impact on play this time. It was good.

This discussion is sparking some thoughts about scene framing in Polaris, I'll probably come around to that some other time.

Yup, those look okay!

(Sorry post is so long in coming -- I got hit by con and then moving.)

If you want to start a thread on Ron's authority divisions and Polaris, I'd love to talk about it with you.

yrs--
--Ben

Hey, no problem for the "delay", I hope your move went well!

Let me see if I can generalize this to Moon characters involved in conflict.
In free play, if the Moon character does something that the Heart or the Mistaken find problematic, they can either double - "It was no matter" it and stay in freeplay, or start a conflict with "We shall see what comes of it", taking up the words of the Moon as their own (which, since they take control over the Moon's domain, must necessarily be a conflict, as per your explanations).
In conflict, the Moons can suggest things, but Heart and Mistaken retain final say over the events negotiated, even if this means having Moons loose control of their characters.

We'll be playing again tonight and I'll probably write an AP about it with a focus on the authority topic.