In another post I was encouraged to begin a thread about the focus of my RPG that I have been working on for the last year or so.  It is a a mid level fantasy RPG set in middle ages called Heroes of Leyreth.  The game is played as a traditional RPG with a Narrator building the story and running the game which the players find themselves in.  The players play one of five character classes in the story.  I feel the best way to really describe what it is about is to simply paste the Prologue I have written for the game.

        In the beginning God created the expanse of the universe, including the heavens and Leyreth.  He also created the angels and their kind.  Nothing that was or is exists outside of God’s creation. 
On Leyreth God created the Blessed Ones to propagate and become rulers over all life which he had created there. These Blessed Ones, both male and female, were created in the image of God, as they, unlike any other life form native to Leyreth, had a soul.  He was their god and they his people, and God loved them.
When Nihil became aware of God’s creation of the Blessed Ones he immediately began to plot their downfall.  The Blessed Ones were completely innocent of sin and so Nihil decided to use it against them by deceiving them into desiring the very thing that caused God to cast him from His presence. 
Nihil approached the Blessed Ones in a benevolent manner and lied to them by convincing them he was a god himself, and that they too could be like him and God, as this was God’s hope for them and would therefore draw them closer to Him.  As the Blessed Ones greatly desired to be close to God they asked Nihil how they could do this thing which he spoke of.  He told them that by yearning in their heart to be as God and allowing him to embrace their soul with his that this could be accomplished and that God would be very pleased.  So they agreed.  This very act of pure innocence becoming deceived from the heart and then coming into contact with pure evil shattered the souls of the Blessed Ones scattering their essence across all of Leyreth.
God was deeply saddened that His creation so easily fell away from their trust in Him, though as He is all knowing, this was not a surprise to Him.  God gathered the broken souls of the Blessed Ones and from them created mankind in the form of dwarf, elf, gnome and human.  God formed each race in pairs, male and female, eight in all, and known to these progenitors was the memory of the decision their former existence had made. 
Nihil had succeeded in separating God’s children from Him through deception.  They now knew good from evil and mankind would now be forever tainted by sinful desire.  However, God, in His love and mercy, offered to whoever would receive it His forgiveness, thus reconciling man to Him if they would only have faith in Him.
Some time later, a generation was born that did not remember the consequences of sinful desire.  Man began to become selfish and turn away from God.  Nihil, infuriated that his own plans had achieved very little, took this opportunity to invade Leyreth and physically destroy all that God had made.  This decision actually worked against him, as faced with eminent extinction, man bound together with renewed faith in God and finally defeated Nihil and his demonic horde by driving them back into the Abyss from which they came.
Within a span of several hundred years however this near genocide was all but forgotten.  Man was divided between the devout and the uncaring.  Seeing the effect of the loss of faith as a better weapon against man than war Nihil reverted back to his old tricks.  By spreading a dark religion upon Leyreth he would tempt man to turn their backs upon God, and when none were left to follow Him he would come back and destroy Leyreth once and for all.
So begins our story.  Almost two thousand years have passed since the advent of the religion of Nihil. Leyreth is a dark world split between the followers of God and those who follow their own selfish desires.  As the Church tries to spread the truth of reconciliation to God the lies of Nihil attempt to subvert all that is righteous.

As is obvious the game setting is very biblically oriented.  I do intend to market this idea in both E-book format and a hard copy, hopefully by the years end.  I have been play testing on and off since the beginning and for the last month and a half very regularly with a group of 4 to 5 testers.  There are still some things I'm ironing out but for the most part all that remains is story background for the major points of interest, and art work.

Adam,

A few questions:

- I see that you are definitely using standard fantasy tropes (elves, dwarves, etc) alongside the Christian influence. What are you going to do about magic? Your game seems to be teetering between allegory and interpretation, and letting good guys go around making holy fire and whatnot will push you towards allegory. I'm fairly certain your game will be strengthened by making faith something that personally gives you strength, but doesn't physically affect anything.

- What do your mechanics look like now? It's very possible to have a traditional style RPG with some mechanics that show the values of characters. Pendragon is a very good example of this, and seems to fit well in the model you're describing here.

I have to go to work so I only have time for a quick response regarding the question of magic. 

There are 3 basic types of magic in the system. elemental, conjuration, and necromancy.  Of these only elemental magic is not deemed an abomination to the church as its power base taps into the same dominion God granted the Blessed Ones in order for them to have control over their environment and therefor is considered holy.  I realize biblically this is not supported except in a few theories that believe Adam possibly had full control over his environment before his fall into sin.  As for necromancy and conjuration magic, there is no doubt left open in their descriptions as to whether or not they are vile and wicked magics.

As for the priest type class for the system they don't cast spells as would the magi class.  First of all Magi can fail in their spell casting whereas an Apostle's prayers are granted fully by God and always work perfectly as it is not the Apostle performing the miracle but God doing so through them.

I do have the slight fear that as this project could be used as a type of tool for ministry by opening the participants up to the idea of biblical events that magic could be misconstrued as acceptable.  However I do plan on inserting a type of "Mission Statement" if you will  in the project informing about this being a fictional fantasy work for entertainment purposes and not a biblical textbook on right and wrong.

This seams very, very, bad.

Hello, Adam!

As another Adam with a deep interest in this kind of material, I'd like to ask: what do you want your game to do better than any other game out there?

Do you want a vehicle for players to righteously vanquish clear-cut evil, like in Middle Earth? An allegorical teaching tool, like Dragonraid?

It's really interesting to me that you classify "conjuration" as an unholy magic. Why is that? Wouldn't miracles like manna, or the loaves and fishes, be "conjuring" up food to feed the hungry?

It is also interesting to me that an Apostle's prayers always work perfectly. I don't usually understand the Christian faith to operate like that: even some of Jesus' prayers never came to pass, and the Psalms are full of questions asking why God is silent and distant. Why are prayers more effective in Leyreth? Why can only Priests pray this way? What prevents them from praying all their problems away?

Also, if it's all right to pry: can you describe a little bit of your gaming background, and church background?

Adam C.

This is a moderator post.

John, your value judgments are totally out of place here. The person who started the thread wants help with his game, that's all. If you do not want to provide such help, then no one is making you do it.

Find threads about games you want to provide constructive advice for. Don't post in threads about games which you don't want to help out.

Do not post in this thread regarding your opinions or your response to being moderated. Either send me a private message, or start a thread in the Site Discussion if you want it to be public.

Everyone else, please continue with the discussion and please ignore John's intrusion (i.e. do not honor it with attention).

Best, Ron

Hi, some people just have the best names eh?

As another Adam with a deep interest in this kind of material, I'd like to ask: what do you want your game to do better than any other game out there?

Do you want a vehicle for players to righteously vanquish clear-cut evil, like in Middle Earth? An allegorical teaching tool, like Dragonraid?

It's really interesting to me that you classify "conjuration" as an unholy magic. Why is that? Wouldn't miracles like manna, or the loaves and fishes, be "conjuring" up food to feed the hungry?

It is also interesting to me that an Apostle's prayers always work perfectly. I don't usually understand the Christian faith to operate like that: even some of Jesus' prayers never came to pass, and the Psalms are full of questions asking why God is silent and distant. Why are prayers more effective in Leyreth? Why can only Priests pray this way? What prevents them from praying all their problems away?

Also, if it's all right to pry: can you describe a little bit of your gaming background, and church background?

I think its great to see an increase in the Christian community as far as role playing games go and it’s interesting to watch as they grow and evolve in their game design concepts. There is a very strong concept of the standard elves, dwarves, and such as well as the class level system. Now none of these things are bad in and of themselves but how they are used can be bad. So I suggest before you continue setting wise ask yourself why the need for these cliché fantasy races, could your very own home brew races be more interesting and ad extra flavor, and lastly is there even a need for more than just humans. One last thing I would like to see done just to help me (and others) get and idea of what you’re working with so we know where to help is to if you could maybe fill out a power 19. I find that just the act of filling out the power 19 can often answer some of your questions.

On just one last note I personally with the faith abilities think that some possibility of failure should be possible there were many times where a lack of faith caused a miracle to go sour. Possibly working with a faith attribute that goes up and down as the character desperately attempts to maintain his beliefs in a failing world which controls how capable of performing his miracles he is.

The link below is to the power 19 which you may or may not have a desire to fill out.
http://socratesrpg.blogspot.com/2006/01/what-are-power-19-pt-1.html

Hopefully something I said helped if not I am sure some one else will be able to.
Regards, Seth

Adam --

Thanks for the extra information on your background and goals. Would you be interested in how other games have tackled these themes? You may find it useful to compare.

You owe a look to Dragonraid, probably the first explicitly Christian RPG ever. It takes its role as a teaching tool very seriously, to the point of rewarding players for memorizing Scripture and such. Check out its website, at least -- how is it similar to or different from what you want to achieve?

Fantasy Flight Games' Midnight is a Dungeons & Dragons setting where Evil has completely taken over, making the good guys' job nearly impossible to do. The setting gives a very flavorful look at a world bent beneath the oppression of a dark power.

I am contractually obligated by my Forge membership to mention Dogs in the Vineyard -- a game about roving religious judges, using guns and faith to solve problems in Mormon-ish frontier towns of the 1800s west. This game can be a powerful critique of justice, faith, and violence, which means to me it's potentially one of the best Christian games out there. But then, I like doubt and moral quandaries in my Christianity, 'cuz that's closest to my real-life experience.

Testament: Roleplaying in the Biblical Era is (like Midnight) a d20 product created for explicitly modeling Old Testament characters and events.

...Even if you never read these books, looking up reviews and Actual Play accounts may be educational. Food for thought, at least!

Regarding the specifics of your game, I'm surprised you're creating your own system instead of creating a d20 expansion product. Many of your mechanics are directly inspired by D&D (classes, races, levels, special support for combat and magic, etc.), so what inspired you to invent your own dice mechanic?

I like that each class has three devotions. I presume there's some overlap? Does each class have at least one devotion that nobody else can get, as in Vampire: the Requiem clan disciplines? It sounds a bit disappointing that I only get new stuff every other level... I know I'd feel like the even levels were a waste of time if nothing else special happens at those milesones.

That's all for now --

Adam

Oh boy, we're getting some good discussion here! I'm a happy elf now. For those coming in only now, here's the original thread where we started. Adam's resolution system is explained there in detail.

Adam wrote:
There are 3 basic types of magic in the system. elemental, conjuration, and necromancy.  Of these only elemental magic is not deemed an abomination to the church as its power base taps into the same dominion God granted the Blessed Ones in order for them to have control over their environment and therefor is considered holy.  I realize biblically this is not supported except in a few theories that believe Adam possibly had full control over his environment before his fall into sin.  As for necromancy and conjuration magic, there is no doubt left open in their descriptions as to whether or not they are vile and wicked magics.

As for the priest type class for the system they don't cast spells as would the magi class.  First of all Magi can fail in their spell casting whereas an Apostle's prayers are granted fully by God and always work perfectly as it is not the Apostle performing the miracle but God doing so through them.

I do have the slight fear that as this project could be used as a type of tool for ministry by opening the participants up to the idea of biblical events that magic could be misconstrued as acceptable.  However I do plan on inserting a type of "Mission Statement" if you will  in the project informing about this being a fictional fantasy work for entertainment purposes and not a biblical textbook on right and wrong.

In the case of Apostles their talents are spell like abilities referred to as prayers, that can only be used a certain number of times per day, as God does not endlessly supply His servants with blessings.  As I wish to represent the absoluteness and unfailingness of God's power these prayers never fail to do what they do.  Obviously their power is balanced to this purpose.

In this regard the prayers of an Apostle are unfailing, though they are not normal prayers as you are thinking of.  Currently I do not have a system for ordinary prayer in the game, and I don't know if I will.  I know one can argue of how you can't have a Christian game without prayer but  the Christian aspect of the game is more considered as the ideals of what one is fighting for than full on duplication of the faith.
Maybe with this I am missing something.  I am more than welcome to ideas.

Though I will touch on a few of these topics I must say that this discussion has opened me up to the idea of creating a Faith attribute that can track different acts and attitudes of the players in their regards to acting in a righteous manner.  Whether anything will come of it I am not sure, as though it is relatively simple to create a chart of positive and negative bonuses for acting in a righteous or unrighteous manner implementation still comes at the discretion of the GM which often can be described as whimsical at best.  Furthermore I fear it could give rise to a meta game mentality of trying to eek out that last small bonus of which I am not a fan of.  On the up side such an attribute can be used to further enforce the ideals of the game setting and the players responsibilities as heroes.  Obviously such an attribute could be used for determining how well, and how often, an apostles talents can be used.

Anyway on with the show.

Posted by: Seth M. Bashwinger

I think its great to see an increase in the Christian community as far as role playing games go and it’s interesting to watch as they grow and evolve in their game design concepts. There is a very strong concept of the standard elves, dwarves, and such as well as the class level system. Now none of these things are bad in and of themselves but how they are used can be bad. So I suggest before you continue setting wise ask yourself why the need for these cliché fantasy races, could your very own home brew races be more interesting and ad extra flavor, and lastly is there even a need for more than just humans.

One last thing I would like to see done just to help me (and others) get and idea of what you’re working with so we know where to help is to if you could maybe fill out a power 19. I find that just the act of filling out the power 19 can often answer some of your questions.

Thanks for the extra information on your background and goals. Would you be interested in how other games have tackled these themes? You may find it useful to compare.

Regarding the specifics of your game, I'm surprised you're creating your own system instead of creating a d20 expansion product. Many of your mechanics are directly inspired by D&D (classes, races, levels, special support for combat and magic, etc.), so what inspired you to invent your own dice mechanic?

I like that each class has three devotions. I presume there's some overlap? Does each class have at least one devotion that nobody else can get, as in Vampire: the Requiem clan disciplines? It sounds a bit disappointing that I only get new stuff every other level... I know I'd feel like the even levels were a waste of time if nothing else special happens at those milestones.

I just want to say that while I completely support the tack Clinton suggested (to make faith an off-screen phenomenon of value judgement), this also rocks my socks off. Having stereotypical rpg fantasy metaphysics that ties in with Christian themes is some completely crazy shit, because it implies a different theology from the one we have in Christian churches. What's more, what I'm reading here looks like it's just the same ol' Christian God in there, except that the game just happens to happen in a world where his ways are different. And thus, different metaphysics and theology. Reminds me of Narnia, where the latter books are pretty much all about this topic. I'd be interested in playing a game that deals with the implications of this different theology.

A random question that popped up regarding this: while the above no doubt works, I'm left asking why prayers are usable a certain number of times per day, instead of some more interesting and uncertain method. I'd find it interesting if there was some more... qualitative method for determining when it works, instead of a quota. I don't know exactly what'd this be so that it wouldn't degenerate into the GM deciding when it works and when it doesn't, though. Perhaps some method for figuring out when the character is in grace and when he isn't, with a structure to the game that tends to limit what characters can do without falling out of grace. What I'm thinking of is that a holy man in RL (well, anyway...) doesn't have a limit to how many times he can do the miracle; the only limit is that he not waste the power frivolously. So it stands to reason that an Apostle of level x, who has just learned the miracle of creating food for the needy would, indeed, be able to do this whenever it was needed, in whatever quantities needed. And his power would only fail him if he tried to create food that was not needed, or tried to feed people who were meant to starve by the God's plan. So IMO you should rather keep track of the frivolity instead of uses per day. I don't know.

[a href="http://files.crngames.com/cc/paladin/paladin.html"]Paladin[/a] by Clinton Nixon might be worth a look too, especially since it's free.  It does religious characters who kick ass for the lord with a very simple system, and that indie ethos we all love.

I'd suggest at least reading it.

Hi Adam,

I find your initiative extremely interesting; I'm in the process of finishing the layout for the 2nd edition of my own RPG, that focuses also a religious angle where faith and responsibility is a cornerstone.

A suggestion: read Jonathan Hayward's essay about the problem of the "Gamist" paradigm in regards to Christianity in roleplaying. It should raise important issues about the problem of the focus of most rpgs - reward systems with personal power - in regard to Christianity's values - humility before God and goodness to mankind.

I found Mr Hayward's essay extremely useful from a design perspective, as I did John Kirk III's free book, "RPG design patterns", that is great to help think outside the box of D&D.

Theology in play:
http://jonathanscorner.com/tms/general/general.html

Most classical RPGs are not very supportive of a faith-focused state of mind, but more on skirmishing... What Ron Edwards has called "fantasy heartbreakers" are legion in this regard in adressing poorly Christianity or any religion, simply because of not "thinking outside the box" - and I'm among those to blame. I wish you success where others have failed in the past!

Anyway, I suggest you use the POWER 19 questionnaire, as suggested above, to test whether your system meets your goals.

Good luck!

Erick

Hi Adam,

I noticed you have mentioned d20 and at least looking at the White Wolf system.  What other games have you played?  For instance, I was thinking about the game Pendragon.  Older rpg where you play at knights and other medieval classes, including religious "classes" based on Christian roles and Pagan roles.  It also had virtue scores and etc.  Set in a different time period but assumed magic existed as in legends.  Also Ars Magica, yes it has magi and that but there is a decent amout of information on how religious types would perceive magic users and etc.  Best of all, the fourth edition download is free (as I believe they are fifth edition at least).

It sounds like we are looking at games examining the capacity of man to good in the face of temptation although I have chosen to do this by looking at what would happen if ordinary people were given super powers.  Refreshing to see I am not the only one looking at somewhat similar issues.

Sean

Adam, If you read French, I'd definitely recommend reading "Miles Christi"', a 1995 roleplaying game by Sans Peur et Sans Reproche inc. about Templars at the Crusades, facing conflicting vows as soldiers, monks and Christians in a Muslim world. Each of these three aspects is a characteristic by itself, the game uses Tarot cards and there is even a confessional aspect in the game.

A summary and 15 reviews of the game (French)
http://www.roliste.com/jeu.jsp?id=288&ft=1

Erick