Paul, Danielle, George and I have started playing this game, with Paul GMing. There will be lots to say, but first I want to get something out of the way.

It was really painful to watch some people in the group do the math. The formula in the book makes it a little easier but breaks down for high passion scores and people don't even really like that much work. So, set the wayback machine to 1977, when RPGs still had tables - Hero's Banner I think would be better off with one, with the general formula confined to a footnote for those who care. Truth to tell even this table is kind of a 'gamer's version' - I think you could probably have fun for a whole game just mapping Passion scores straight on to the "One High" column, with the first three "Spread" rows moved over. (A speculative thought: if you did that, you could demand that the high number was placed in the influence you just re-rolled, signifying your temporarily greater commitment to it. This would make the losing connections mechanics more ruthless, which might - I don't know but it seems worth considering - be a nice tie-in to the current endgame mechanics, which basically 'reward' you for single-mindedly increasing one stat all the way through by ensuring you've got all the connections with that influence at the end.)

Clinton's d20 suggestion would simplify this whole thing considerably but the passion increases become ickier. One option if you wanted to go that way: just one point of passion per two-point score bonus on the reroll, with a 0 on any of 1-3 d10 "breakdown dice" signifying breakdown. This makes movement towards endgame more ruthlessly constant, which has (relatively minor IMO) drawbacks. I saw some other options but they're worse in other respects (multiple die types, much more unforgiving high end on the spread,complicated math on the roll are the immediate choices) so this is probably the best one.

More soon. I'm going to do an in-depth playtest review of this one for Big Purple once we've gotten a little farther in.

[table][tr][td]Passion[/td][td]One High[/td][td] Spread[/td][td]One Low[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1[/td][td][/td][td]34 33 33[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]2[/td][td][/td][td]34 34 32[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]3[/td][td][/td][td]35 33 32[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]4[/td][td]36 32 32[/td][td][/td][td]35 34 31[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]5[/td][td]36 33 31[/td][td][/td][td]35 35 30[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]6[/td][td]37 32 31[/td][td][/td][td]36 35 29[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]7[/td][td]38 31 31[/td][td][/td][td]36 35 29[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]8[/td][td]38 32 30[/td][td][/td][td]36 36 28[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]9[/td][td]39 31 30[/td][td][/td][td]37 35 28[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]10[/td][td]40 30 30[/td][td][/td][td]37 36 27[/td][/tr]

[tr][td]11[/td][td]40 31 29[/td][td][/td][td]37 37 26[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]12[/td][td]41 30 29[/td][td][/td][td]38 36 26[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]13[/td][td]42 29 29[/td][td][/td][td]38 37 25[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]14[/td][td]42 30 28[/td][td][/td][td]38 38 24[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]15[/td][td]43 29 28[/td][td][/td][td]39 37 24[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]16[/td][td]44 28 28[/td][td][/td][td]39 38 23[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]17[/td][td]44 29 27[/td][td][/td][td]39 39 22[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]18[/td][td]45 28 27[/td][td]42 34 24[/td][td]40 38 22[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]19[/td][td]46 27 27[/td][td]43 33 24[/td][td]40 39 21[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]20[/td][td]46 28 26[/td][td]43 34 23[/td][td]40 40 20[/td][/tr]

[tr][td]21[/td][td]47 27 26[/td][td]44 33 23[/td][td]41 39 20[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]22[/td][td]48 26 26[/td][td]44 34 22[/td][td]41 40 19[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]23[/td][td]48 27 25[/td][td]45 33 22[/td][td]41 41 18[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]24[/td][td]49 26 25[/td][td]45 34 21[/td][td]42 40 18[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]25[/td][td]50 25 25[/td][td]46 33 21[/td][td]42 41 17[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]26[/td][td]50 26 24[/td][td]46 34 20[/td][td]42 42 16[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]27[/td][td]51 25 24[/td][td]47 33 20[/td][td]43 41 16[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]28[/td][td]52 24 24[/td][td]47 34 19[/td][td]43 42 15[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]29[/td][td]52 25 23[/td][td]48 33 19[/td][td]43 43 14[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]30[/td][td]53 24 23[/td][td]48 34 18[/td][td]44 42 14[/td][/tr]

[tr][td]31[/td][td]54 23 23[/td][td]49 33 18[/td][td]44 43 13[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]32[/td][td]54 24 22[/td][td]49 34 17[/td][td]44 44 12[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]33[/td][td]55 23 22[/td][td]50 33 17[/td][td]45 43 12[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]34[/td][td]56 22 22[/td][td]50 34 16[/td][td]45 44 11[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]35[/td][td]56 23 21[/td][td]51 33 16[/td][td]45 45 10[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]36[/td][td]57 22 21[/td][td]51 34 15[/td][td]46 44 10[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]37[/td][td]58 21 21[/td][td]52 33 15[/td][td]46 45 09[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]38[/td][td]58 22 20[/td][td]52 34 14[/td][td]46 46 08[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]39[/td][td]59 21 20[/td][td]53 33 14[/td][td]47 45 08[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]40[/td][td]60 20 20[/td][td]53 34 13[/td][td]47 46 07[/td][/tr]

[tr][td]41[/td][td]60 21 19[/td][td]54 33 13[/td][td]47 47 06[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]42[/td][td]61 20 19[/td][td]54 34 12[/td][td]48 46 06[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]43[/td][td]62 19 19[/td][td]55 33 12[/td][td]48 47 05[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]44[/td][td]62 20 18[/td][td]55 34 11[/td][td]48 48 04[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]45[/td][td]63 19 18[/td][td]56 33 11[/td][td]49 47 04[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]46[/td][td]64 18 18[/td][td]56 34 10[/td][td]49 48 03[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]47[/td][td]64 19 17[/td][td]57 33 10[/td][td]49 49 02[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]48[/td][td]65 18 17[/td][td]57 34 09[/td][td]50 48 02[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]49[/td][td]66 17 17[/td][td]58 33 09[/td][td]50 49 01[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]50[/td][td]66 18 16[/td][td]58 34 08[/td][td]50 50 00[/td][/tr]

[tr][td]51[/td][td]67 17 16[/td][td]59 33 08[/td][td]51 49 00[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]52[/td][td]68 16 16[/td][td]59 34 07[/td][td]52 48 00[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]53[/td][td]68 17 15[/td][td]60 33 07[/td][td]53 47 00[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]54[/td][td]69 16 15[/td][td]60 34 06[/td][td]54 46 00[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]55[/td][td]70 15 15[/td][td]61 33 06[/td][td]55 45 00[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]56[/td][td]70 16 14[/td][td]61 34 05[/td][td]56 44 00[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]57[/td][td]71 15 14[/td][td]62 33 05[/td][td]57 43 00[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]58[/td][td]72 14 14[/td][td]62 34 04[/td][td]58 42 00[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]59[/td][td]72 15 13[/td][td]63 33 04[/td][td]59 41 00[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]60[/td][td]73 14 13[/td][td]63 34 03[/td][td]60 40 00[/td][/tr]

[tr][td]61[/td][td]74 13 13[/td][td]64 33 03[/td][td]61 39 00[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]62[/td][td]74 14 12[/td][td]64 34 02[/td][td]62 38 00[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]63[/td][td]75 13 12[/td][td]65 33 02[/td][td]63 37 00[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]64[/td][td]76 12 12[/td][td]65 34 01[/td][td]64 36 00[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]65[/td][td]76 13 11[/td][td]66 33 01[/td][td]65 35 00[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]66[/td][td]77 12 11[/td][td]66 34 00[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]67[/td][td]78 11 11[/td][td]67 33 00[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]68[/td][td]78 12 10[/td][td]68 32 00[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]69[/td][td]79 11 10[/td][td]69 31 00[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]70[/td][td]80 10 10[/td][td]70 30 00[/td][td][/td][/tr]

[tr][td]71[/td][td]80 11 09[/td][td]71 29 00[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]72[/td][td]81 10 09[/td][td]72 28 00[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]73[/td][td]82 09 09[/td][td]73 27 00[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]74[/td][td]82 10 08[/td][td]74 26 00[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]75[/td][td]83 09 08[/td][td]75 25 00[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]76[/td][td]84 08 08[/td][td]76 24 00[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]77[/td][td]84 09 07[/td][td]77 23 00[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]78[/td][td]85 08 07[/td][td]78 22 00[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]79[/td][td]86 07 07[/td][td]79 21 00[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]80[/td][td]86 08 06[/td][td]80 20 00[/td][td][/td][/tr]

[tr][td]81[/td][td]87 07 06[/td][td]81 19 00[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]82[/td][td]88 06 06[/td][td]82 18 00[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]83[/td][td]88 07 05[/td][td]83 17 00[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]84[/td][td]89 06 05[/td][td]84 16 00[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]85[/td][td]90 05 05[/td][td]85 15 00[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]86[/td][td]90 06 04[/td][td]86 14 00[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]87[/td][td]91 05 04[/td][td]87 13 00[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]88[/td][td]92 04 04[/td][td]88 12 00[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]89[/td][td]92 05 03[/td][td]89 11 00[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]90[/td][td]93 04 03[/td][td]90 10 00[/td][td][/td][/tr]

[tr][td]91[/td][td]94 03 03[/td][td]91 09 00[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]92[/td][td]94 04 02[/td][td]92 08 00[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]93[/td][td]95 03 02[/td][td]93 07 00[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]94[/td][td]96 02 02[/td][td]94 06 00[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]95[/td][td]96 03 01[/td][td]95 05 00[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]96[/td][td]97 02 01[/td][td]96 04 00[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]97[/td][td]98 01 01[/td][td]97 03 00[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]98[/td][td]98 02 00[/td][td][/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]99[/td][td]99 01 00[/td][td][/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]100[/td][td]100 00 00[/td][td][/td][td][/td][/tr][/table]

Wow...

Your chart is one part scary; one part awesome. I'll definitely be posting a reformatted version of it on the HB website. So thanks!

As for something more substantive, I have to start by saying that nothing about Hero's Banner has drawn more comments from people than the math. On one end of the spectrum you have the people who either absorb the formula as if it was instinct, or else don't even need a formula because they enjoy moving numbers around in their head so much. On the other end, you have the people that, I now presume, just want a chart to tell them what they have to work with. I'll be honest with you, charts of 100 items or more tend to scare me. But I can surely see their usefulness. My point is there's really no getting around the math in HB. I tried my best to make it as approachable as possible. You've surely taken things to the next level.

Next on the agenda: your comment about requiring players to place the high number into the influence they just tested. It's actually not something that you even need the chart for. I played around with all sorts of methods for determining how players might be forced to manipulate their influence scores after an increase. Play-testing led me to believe, though, that in this case freedom is best. Sometimes players felt like the passion increase was due to the fact that their characters really did care more about the recently tested influence. Other times, however, these same players wanted the freedom to tank the tested ability because they felt that the scene would disgust their character into taking a completely different path.

I see what you're getting at about rewarding players for one-track characters. But, on the other hand, I don't really view the endgame mechanics as reward mechanics at all. Rather you can read all sorts of things into a particular character ending -- be they straightforward or ironic. Also, I've found that up until the endgame itself players don't really even think about the endgame as much as they do the scene they're currently in. I'm curious to know how things played out in your game, though. Perhaps you had a different experience?

I'll have to review Clinton's d20 suggestion again before commenting further. Needless to say, the math in HB can be a hurdle. I hope it wasn't too much of a hurdle for your group. I'm also eager to know if you got a chance to use your spiffy chart in play. Did it help, or were you still looking for an alternative?

Just a quick note for anyone reading this thread: the chart above, while very useful, does not contain all possible arrangements. It does represent those at either extreme and then something in the middle. Most of the time, the middle column is what you'd get if you use the formula in the HB book.

For example, down the middle column, if you raised your character's passion by 17 points, from 1 to 18, using the formula in the book, you could end up with either the [42/34/24] listed on the chart or alternatively [43/32/25]. This is a minor point, I know. And really, if you're using the chart it's a moot point, but I thought I'd mention it for the sake of completeness nonetheless.

Hi Tim -

So much to talk about.  It's the early going, though, so take everything I say about mechanics with a grain of salt. Except the thing about the math. If you want to simplify the tables I think you could go with the 'one high' table all the way down - it's most forgiving for losing connections and most helpful for gaining them across the board. Then people could just look up three numbers, no-brainer, but the formula could be there for when you really wanted to tweak, get rid of a connection, etc.

I know what you mean about the connections total not being integral to the reward system and that's why I put 'reward' in quotes in the first post. It did sort of bug me that the implacable one-stat charge didn't have a cost.

But here was my experience in play. My guy, his Blood is to found a dynasty, and his Conscience is to marry someone from a distant land for love. He can't have both. My second scene, Paul introduces a beautiful, intelligent cousin Simona, smart about hunting, a clever tomboy, his uncle's daughter birthed illegitimately by the wife of another noble. The perfect wife for Teodor. She's local and she's family, so I don't love her, I can't, she's not The One. But I like her, and she's exactly the sort of wife I'd need to help with my Hero influence too (about which more later).

Breakdown on the passion reroll. Time gets late, wine gets drunk, Teodor pushes the glasses and plates off the table with a sweep of his arm, passionate embraces are exchanged. He wears her favor now, and he is a man of honor.

As soon as my Passion hits 26 in the third scene, I put 50 into Blood so I can take her as a second connection.

If that's how the mechanics generally work with the imaginative stuff, than all the stuff about connection tactics sort of goes out the window - I need this character now to play my influences, that's how it is. On the other hand, it can be unclear what you're pursuing in play too, and I don't think the rules are as clear about this as MLwM. At least so far - I'm still working to grok the thing.

You have no explanatory text in the mechanics section for how to apply influences. Paul came up with a brilliant interpretation that may be somewhere else in the rulebook, but it totally worked for us. Have to talk about that more later.

I think the game is (along with Trollbabe) maybe the purest example of narrativist-facilitating design I've seen. Purest doesn't equal best, but it's a virtue nonetheless, and I really like what you've done here. More later.

Sean,

The more time I spend looking at your charts, the more I like them. You're right about the convenience of the thing: simply being able to cross-reference a passion score with a set of influence scores is very easy. I have to say, though, that I'm not as enthusiastic about the high table as you are. Really, I'm much more fond of the progression on the spread or low table. Let me tell you why...

Although the high table will get you influences on the extreme sooner (and also allow you gain new connections faster), I like the fact that the spread table, for example, allows characters to waffle longer. And more than anything, I really like the fact that the spread progression results in a zero scoring influence two-thirds of the way through an episode. On the high table you can hang onto one connection in each influence almost until the very end. With the spread or low table, however, you are forced to make a very difficult choice -- giving up an initial connection -- much sooner in the game. To me, giving up connections is much more extreme than higher numbers earlier on.

Calithena wrote:
If that's how the mechanics generally work with the imaginative stuff, than all the stuff about connection tactics sort of goes out the window - I need this character now to play my influences, that's how it is. On the other hand, it can be unclear what you're pursuing in play too, and I don't think the rules are as clear about this as MLwM. At least so far - I'm still working to grok the thing.

Hi Tim,

Here's how I'm thinking about being a player in Hero's Banner. I make this character with certain influences and goals, certain things he wants out of life. I play that guy to the fullest, going after those things. Then I get these decision points where, maybe it's valuing one of those things over the other, or maybe it's just going for the one that I really want in that scene. In that sense I'm pushing towards all of them, but in the end I'll only be able to choose one.

Then the character comes to an end and a new character gives me the opportunity to change, tweak, or refine the choice space.

What I was talking about above is, if this dynamic winds up driving my choices of how to redistribute influence scores, as it did with driving my Blood up so I could add Simona as a connection, then my various worries about how many connections you have at the end don't really matter.

On the other hand, if I know in advance that one of the three is really the one I want, and I pursue it with the others really as window dressing, I think that's kind of a deficient mode of play. But it is supported by the rules in the sense that you can turn the game into something more like a wish fulfillment fantasy by playing it this way, and you even get to die surrounded by loved ones if you play it that way. So what I was wondering about was, whether it would be better to somehow try to frustrate this mode of play with the connections mechanics.

In other words I guess I'm worried about the game supporting two different kinds of player psychology where one of them IMO delivers a better/more interesting/more true to (what I take to be) the design intention kind of experience than the other. This won't be an issue for me in play because I've already decided to pick things that I really don't know which one I care about most in advance and am using play as a way of deciding. (And it's been great. When I made the character I was really worried that he was all about the Hero influence, and now that's almost slipped to third.) Both Paul and I expressed (as I remember it) a desire before play for the choices to be ones you're really uncertain about. That seems to fit with what you want and what you wrote in the last post.

Paul interpreted influences as which ones you 'embody' through your proposed action or decision. I found this word very useful.

I want to give more gory details but I've got a lot on my plate right now. They're coming!

Here's the Koppang/Nixon/Stidd d20 version of the rules:

1) You start with Passion 1 and 7/7/6 distributed among your three influences.

2) When you're resolving a conflict, roll under the relevant score. On success, GM narrates success. On failure, you can have the GM narrate failure, or opt for a reroll.

3) When you opt for a reroll, you can increase your passion by 3. If you do this, roll 3d20. If any of them come up 1 or 20, the player narrates a Breakdown. Alternately, by including a Connection, you may roll 1 or 2 d20 instead, increasing passion by 1 or 2 and rolling 1 or 2 d20's as above.

4) If there's no Breakdown, reroll, adding +2 to the relevant influence for each point of Passion you took on. Player narrates success or failure according to result.

5) If your passion went up, redistribute influence scores according to this table:

[table][tr][td]Passion[/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1[/td][td]7 7 6[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]2[/td][td]8 6 6[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]3[/td][td]8 7 5[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]4[/td][td]9 6 5[/td][td]8 8 4[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]5[/td][td]10 5 5[/td][td]9 7 4[/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]6[/td][td]10 6 4[/td][td]9 8 3[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]7[/td][td]11 5 4[/td][td]10 7 3[/td][td]9 9 2[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]8[/td][td]12 4 4[/td][td]11 6 3[/td][td]10 5 5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]9[/td][td]12 5 3[/td][td]11 7 2[/td][td]10 6 4[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]10[/td][td]13 4 3[/td][td]12 6 2[/td][td]11 8 1[/td][td]10 10 0[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]11[/td][td]14 3 3[/td][td]13 5 2[/td][td]12 7 1[/td][td]11 9 0[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]12[/td][td]14 4 2[/td][td]13 6 1[/td][td]12 8 0[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]13[/td][td]15 3 2[/td][td]14 5 1[/td][td]13 7 0[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]14[/td][td]16 2 2[/td][td]15 4 1[/td][td]14 6 0[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]15[/td][td]16 3 1[/td][td]15 5 0[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]16[/td][td]17 2 1[/td][td]16 4 0[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]17[/td][td]18 1 1[/td][td]17 3 0[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]18[/td][td]18 2 0[/td][td][/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]19[/td][td]19 1 0[/td][td][/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]20[/td][td]20 0 0[/td][td][/td][td][/td][/tr][/table]

You could get rid of the third column on 10 and 11 without losing anything essential.

This reminds me of a question that came up during play, actually. Does a breakdown on, say, the first Passion roll negate subsequent passion rolls? So you can gain less passion on a breakdown? "Everything stops" can be interpreted this way. If so, the above table doesn't duplicate that restrictive factor.

Rolls should be "the number or below" rather than under.

I re-read the text at the beginning of the game and it's very clear about the intended mode of play, much more clear than some of the later sections. So that's good: maybe that's all you really need to address the issue.

I do feel like though if we're invested in our fictional character we also get invested in whether he dies alone (maybe we want that) or loved or somewhere in between. And you do have input into that...I guess just put all this in the 'food for thought' column.

It looks like you might have come across it already, but I'll put my 2c worth in. The game text does say that the most important part of creating a character is making sure all three goals are things you really want. The 2-as-window-dressing mode is not going to give you nearly as powerful a game. Coming up with three goals that are all meaningful is also the hardest part of the game, for my money. Harder by far than figuring out the math, heh.

That said, as you seem to have also noticed, the goals you favor at first may not carry you through the whole story, and one of the ones you didn't think was that important may end up grabbing your attention as things progress.

Like I said, you've probably already got all that figured out. I'm waiting to hear more about this game, so keep the great posts coming ^_^

D.

Sean,

It sounds like you have it. The way you originally describe playing Hero's Banner is correct. Frankly, while the idea of wish fulfillment makes some sense to me, unless you start the game with the assumption that each of your character's influences is equally important to him, you're not going to have a powerful HB experience. Playing each influence to the hilt is key to a rewarding game.

If two influences are nothing more than formalities, then there isn't ever going to be any real conflict. Instead, all you'll have is a pre-planned character and a forgone conclusion. You have to allow any given character to develop as you play. But in short, based on everything you've described, it sounds as if that's exactly what you're doing. Right on!

I suppose I could have built in some mechanics to ensure that players are somehow forced to wrestle with their three influences even if they already have a pre-conceived notion of how they want their character to end up. But I kind of think that mechanics along those lines would end up punishing the players who are on board with the game's concept from the beginning. Plus, any sort of "forced" conflict mechanics would probably always seem somewhat hollow or fake.

I'd rather players all start with the same understanding about what exactly influences are supposed to represent, and then have the freedom to explore their individual characters as they see fit. Your experience with your character's Hero influence is a perfect example of what HB is supposed to do -- and I wouldn't want it any other way. Paul's interpretation is also a great way to think about influences once actual play begins, and really mirrors what you've already described.

Next, as to the d20 method for scoring, I have to say that I think I gave Clinton a hard time the last time he suggested the method. Perhaps I was too hasty (Clinton, are you reading this?). Needless to say, my personal preference still leans towards the full 100 point method. I like the percentile feel, the relative crunchiness, the fact that you only need one type of dice to play, and the overall math of the original system. Also, Sean, it still seems like you'd still prefer a chart even with the modifications?

Overall, if anyone wants to give the d20 method a try, I'd love to hear your feedback. At the very least it sounds like a less math-intensive alternative for those of you out there opposed to the idea of using a chart.

Finally, to answer your questions, under the standard breakdown rules, when you roll a breakdown you do not roll any remaining passion checks for the series. The intention here is to slow down the character's overall passion increase. The breakdown is supposed to represent a sort of "release valve" for pent up passion. Thus, the character has a breakdown but doesn't actually gain any additional passion.

Now, the more I run demos of HB, the less I've been using the above rule. Under the time-crunch of a demo, I usually make players roll all passion checks whether or not they roll a breakdown (of course they can still only have one breakdown per series of passion checks). While any given character will certainly expire quicker, I do enjoy the consistency of what I'll call the "demo rule" for breakdowns. I'm not sure if the original rule is really necessary or even makes sense in terms of the game fiction. After all, why wouldn't a character's passion go up in the midst of a breakdown?

Nev wrote:
Coming up with three goals that are all meaningful is also the hardest part of the game, for my money. Harder by far than figuring out the math, heh.

Finally, to answer your questions, under the standard breakdown rules, when you roll a breakdown you do not roll any remaining passion checks for the series. The intention here is to slow down the character's overall passion increase. The breakdown is supposed to represent a sort of "release valve" for pent up passion. Thus, the character has a breakdown but doesn't actually gain any additional passion.

Needless to say, my personal preference still leans towards the full 100 point method. I like the percentile feel, the relative crunchiness, the fact that you only need one type of dice to play, and the overall math of the original system. Also, Sean, it still seems like you'd still prefer a chart even with the modifications?

Next session is Thursday.

This is just a quick note to let thread readers know that my review is up at Big Purple now, if you're interested: http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/12/12838.phtml .

Really great and depthful review. Now I want to play again... heh.

Sean,

Thank you for the review: the praise and the criticism. Your comments are honest and insightful -- and most humbling.

I also look forward to hearing more about your character, and the other characters in your group. Now I really need to post those charts to my website!

Hi Tim,

Thank you for writing such a cool game. I can hardly wait until Thursday when we play again. Hopefully I or someone will get you some more AP stuff soon!

Obsession drove me to create... the complete Hero's Banner Passion Chart. There may be one or two errors or omissions, and if anyone can point them out to me I'd be grateful. Otherwise, enjoy.

This will be going up, along with an abbreviated version, on the TCK Roleplaying website later in the week.

@_@...

you are a sick, sick man. I pity you.

(conveniently forgetting how many times I have done exactly this sort of thing)

You have no idea how tired I was last night trying to finish the thing.

And, I already found a healthy handful of errors that crept in due a mistake that propagated down a row or two. Fortunately, these are easy mistakes to fix -- and I'll have the revised chart up tonight or tomorrow.

We had our third session of play (fourth including chargen) and a lot of cool stuff happened. One character finished his story, the other two are very close. Some notes:

- Danielle kept wanting to give George fan mail a la PTA, and said "every game should have fan mail."

- The game is not playing as fast as some have suggested. This isn't a bad thing, as we're enjoying playing, but we were wondering about it a little. We're on about 12 hours of play after chargen, 8 scenes total per character, one character just finished, one will probably finish in her next scene, and one has 1-2 scenes left. That pacing is OK overall but would be better if we were a little faster. I don't know to what degree this is us and to what degree it's the system.

- George's final scene was sort of wrenching/depressing for me. His character had been distinguished (in my mind) by clever social ploys, good, diplomatic solutions to Paul's conflicts, and in general of borderline saintly behavior. One of his influences (I think Conscience, but I'm not sure) had involved the goal of restoring this ancient temple, and he had really managed to make me care about it through the way he played his character. But then, in what was his final scene, the noble family who was an enemy of his (the Lambruc) murdered his elderly mother, rather brutally. She was a crazy old harridan who he had fought every step of the way in her murderous ploys, and his resistance to her was a serious locus of ethical self-determination in my mind. But then faced with the murder, he decided to take his Blood to 100, and his family exacted bloody vengeance on the Lambruc in the end. I imagine I might have done the same thing, but it was still sad for me somehow.

- My character had a scene that went like this. In earlier scenes, having ridden north to Uran, he met Marjorie, a murderous arctic beauty, his true love. (Paul introduced this character and I went with it.) She wanted him to murder her father (the King of Uran) and stepmother (Danielle's character, his Tuceascan queen). He tried; he succeeded in poisoning the king, though the queen got out of it through some clever narration (I can't kill her anyway, but the narration to explain how she didn't take the poison was nice). Then my character and Danielle's got into a player vs. player scene where we were both riding to get the King's oldest son, a shaman-healer who had renounced the court of Uran and lived by himself. Marjorie and Teodor wanted to murder him so Marjorie could usurp the throne, while Roxana (D) wanted to find him to heal her husband. In the process of the ride Teodor murdered Roxana's brother.

So, anyway, we both missed, my miss was lower, Roxana took her reroll first and got a Breakdown, so the scene was left to her to narrate. At this point Marjorie wanted to go back and keep fighting, but I decided I'd had enough of this northern chaos and murder, and wanted to get back to my own castle in Tuceasucu. I punched her out, threw her over my horse, and rode south.

Now to the scene I wanted to describe. Simona, a noblewoman who my uncle had set me up with and whose favor I had worn the whole time through these Uran shenanigans, met us at dusk across the Tuceascan border with three armed men. She was furious about my liaison with Marjorie and drew her dagger to try to kill her; Marjorie drew her sword and would have killed Simona if one of Simona's men hadn't pulled her down. The two started fighting; I drew on my Conscience (true love) to protect Marjorie and keep them both alive. I failed twice.

So, I narrated Teodor killing one of the guards to get to the woman, Marjorie getting the better of Simona in the fight, Teodor grabbing Marjorie to protect Simona, and Simona plunging her dagger into Marjorie's breast, killing her. Teodor knelt over her, trying to stanch the wound with Simona's favor. Marjorie died in his arms; a single fear fell down his cheek. Then he rose, leaving the bloody favor in the wound, offered his arm to Simona, and said something like: "Milady honors me with an escort. Let us ride together to castle Vasiliu."

They were married shortly thereafter. Conscience went to 0, Blood to 80.

- I don't really agree with Clinton's 'attack the weakest stat' idea after having played through it with Paul mostly (though not dogmatically) following this method. (Paul was having some second thoughts as well.) First of all, even if your high score is up in the seventies, you're going to fail a quarter of the time, which is not never. Second, by always attacking the weakest you do force the important choices that drive the game farther, but there's something I think to be said for also attacking characters where they are strong, to give them a chance to establish themselves in pursuit of the particular influence/goal that goes with that stat. It's sort of like how the carrot and stick is more effective than the stick alone: you want people to care about their choices from the beginning, sure, but you also want opportunities to re-invest during play, so that when the really hard rolls come they're all the more poignant. Maybe 'attack the weakest' is a good default when you're not sure what to do as GM, but letting the story go where it wants to go, and letting characters establish themselves in pursuit of things they're currently focused on a little longer, seems like it's valid in certain contexts as well.

- At one point (I think just before the scene described above, though I'm not quite sure) Paul said that my character was an asshole. That hurt my feelings a little: not because he was wrong though. This probably isn't something to pursue in the thread but I figured I should mention it to Paul before it got lost in the misty sea of memory and our busy lives.

- Paul's GM skills are different from mine, but he's an astonishingly good narrativist GM. He whacks you with Mary Jane vs. the schoolbus full of kids over and over and over and it's different and ugly and interesting every time. When I'm on my game I'm pretty excellent at helping people 'visualize' or 'immerse in' the setting, and giving them opportunities to make interesting plans to deal with external adversity in character, but I'm not as good at this stuff so it's cool to see how someone else does it and actually be learning from the process.

On the whole the game's still delivering the goods.

At one point (I think just before the scene described above, though I'm not quite sure) Paul said that my character was an asshole. That hurt my feelings a little...

It may not have felt like it but that was me giving you fanmail. You've raked Teodor more cruelly back and forth across his three influences than either Danielle or George, and he's moreso a wretchedly problematic character as a result. Dealing admirably with external adversity is one kind of protagonism. Teodor, however, is almost his own worst enemy. And that's something you just don't get so often in a player character.

Paul

Lo, another player does appear.  :)

I'm George, player of Iancu Vostorya, loyal son of the aristocratic Vostorya boyars.

Calithena wrote:
- The game is not playing as fast as some have suggested. This isn't a bad thing, as we're enjoying playing, but we were wondering about it a little. We're on about 12 hours of play after chargen, 8 scenes total per character, one character just finished, one will probably finish in her next scene, and one has 1-2 scenes left. That pacing is OK overall but would be better if we were a little faster. I don't know to what degree this is us and to what degree it's the system.

- George's final scene was sort of wrenching/depressing for me. His character had been distinguished (in my mind) by clever social ploys, good, diplomatic solutions to Paul's conflicts, and in general of borderline saintly behavior. One of his influences (I think Conscience, but I'm not sure) had involved the goal of restoring this ancient temple, and he had really managed to make me care about it through the way he played his character. But then, in what was his final scene, the noble family who was an enemy of his (the Lambruc) murdered his elderly mother, rather brutally. She was a crazy old harridan who he had fought every step of the way in her murderous ploys, and his resistance to her was a serious locus of ethical self-determination in my mind. But then faced with the murder, he decided to take his Blood to 100, and his family exacted bloody vengeance on the Lambruc in the end. I imagine I might have done the same thing, but it was still sad for me somehow.

Maybe 'attack the weakest' is a good default when you're not sure what to do as GM, but letting the story go where it wants to go, and letting characters establish themselves in pursuit of things they're currently focused on a little longer, seems like it's valid in certain contexts as well.

Great details here! I'm really enjoying this thread. On the other hand, I'm really sorry that I haven't been better about responding here lately. Suffice it to say I've been ridiculously busy. I did, however, want to clarify a few things that have come up.

First of all, just so everyone is on the same page, there is no requirement that the GM always go after a player's lowest-rated influence score. It's merely a suggested technique that is meant to ensure passion scores steadily increase throughout the game (and to ensure a variety of quality internal conflicts within each character). That said, when I'm GMing, I don't always go after a low score. As has already been mentioned, it's sometimes more dramatic/appropriate to set up a scene around a player's highest score -- especially if you're playing a slower-paced game. So challenge whatever influence you want. It's all perfectly acceptable! I suppose I'd temper the original suggestion by saying, "When in doubt, go for a player's lowest score."

On pacing, this is really an issue of personal taste. I've been able to run five players through a complete passion cycle in five hours. Then again, I've also spent three hours on one player. Depending on the time it takes you to drive a scene towards resolution, your game may run longer or shorter. But if you're looking for a way to speed things up, just be aware that you need to set a scene and move to dice rolling at a consistent and healthy speed. Lots of conflict and lots of dice rolling will quicken the game.

Dice can also affect the pace of your game. For instance, if you're always succeeding without the need for re-rolls, then your game will move along pretty slowly. Still, it sounds as if the slow pacing here is something other than fluke dice results.

My character spent most of the episode going in one direction, but in my final conflict check, I was able to toss all that aside and radically rearrange things.

I've been able to run five players through a complete passion cycle in five hours.

Recently Sean asked me to post some notes about the game that I had emailed. We completed our first episode in May, and got a start on generating the next generation of characters, but have been on hiatus since then.

Here are some notes from the last session. I know I do not have it all, and welcome additions and corrections. We spent most of the session on the final conflicts and concluding scenes of Sean's Teodor and Danielle's Roxana:

The Demise of Jude Teodor Vasiliu:
Teodor and his family (wife Simona, toddler son and nursing infant daughter) are attending a feast and meeting of nobles at a castle in Tucaescu.  Some Urani are there too, part of a diplomatic delegation. While at a feast, Teodor discovers that someone has tied a stained old cloth around the neck of his son. The cloth is the favor that Simona gave to him when they parted the first time; he used it in a futile attempt to stanch the fatal wound that Simona gave to Marjori, late princess of Uran (see April 18 post).  Teodor had left it with the body of Marjori by the side of a road at the Tucaescan border two years earlier. He is deeply upset to see it, and frightens his son, demanding to know where it came from. This is soon obvious, as a young (16ish) Urani noble was watching them intently, and meets his gaze. They speak quietly, and the Urani tells T. that he is the one who discovered Marjori's body. He buried her secretly, and swore revenge on her killer, who he believes is Teodor. Teodor challenges him to combat on the spot, but the young Urani declines, saying he will take revenge "not now, not here, more likely when you least expect it." T. and his henchmen plan an ambush, but then T decides to confer with his wily uncle Vasili first. V. counsels him to wait, the Urani are leaving in two days. It is not in Teodor's nature to let such a threat to himself and his family go unanswered, and the next morning, when the young nobles are out hawking, he follows, intent on assassinating the Urani.  Instead he is astounded to find the young man alone in a clearing, speaking to the ghost of Marjori. Teodor drops his bow and approaches, shocked at what he sees. The young Urani says "the Uran have many secrets, look what can be done with a little blood." He then says that the full spell, to bring Marjori back, will require the blood of both the victim and the killer, enough blood that the killer will not survive. Once again Teodor is asked to choose between love and dynasty. He makes a decision: "When and where?"  "Within 2 days, before I leave."  T tries to get his wife to ride out into the woods with him, but she prefers not to (failed conflict check, I think).  He browbeats her into coming anyway. They meet the Urani, who waits with a golden bowl. T and the Urani attack Simona, T. slashing her, and the boy catching the blood in a bowl. She collapses, and is dying. Teodor looks to the Urani to start the spell, but he sneers, laughs, shouts abuse at Teodor, and kicks over the bowl. Teodor, enraged, beheads him with a single blow. Then he sinks to his knees, realizes what he's done, and is overcome with remorse. He takes Simona's dagger, the blade she killed Marjori, his true love with, and kills himself.

Talk about high drama! I was impressed. Teodor's Conscience goal was to marry a foreigner for love, and his Blood was to found a dynasty in Tucaescu, mutually exclusive aims.

Roxana Ends Her Days in Uran:
Trajan, Warlord of Uran, has brought his retinue, including Roxana, his Tucaescan wife, to the court of Ryeic.  He hopes to arrange passage for his armies south through the edge of Ryeic's lands to Prodan. Ryeic is ruled by a queen, and she proves to be a somewhat eccentric woman. She and the members of her court have shaved all their hair and cover their heads with tattoos of astrological import.  She offers to cooperate with Trajan, but only if he follows her fashion, shaves his head, and is tattooed. He is insulted by the suggestion (Urani, we determined, have heavy metal hair) and storms from the hall vowing that he will burn his way through Tucaescu instead.  Roxana confronts him, but I don't recall the details very well. My recollection is she challenged him, told him he was being foolish and stubborn, and walking away from a battle he could win if he would control himself and be patient. I don't know which influence she used in her conflict check, but she lost the roll, and Trajan was unmoved, irritated with her, and broke off the discussion with the bald queen of Ryeic, vowing to burn his way through Tucaescu instead.  They return to Uran, he to lead his armies to war, while she remains behind. In subsequent years, Roxana bears Trajan two children, a son and a daughter.  The son is raised at Trajan's side, and is a fierce warrior, but harsh. The daughter has true gifts of leadership, and may be the true hope of her people. Roxana is popular with the people of Uran, but not with Trajan.  He leads a campaign of conquest against the other kingdoms of the Cross, his son at his side, while Roxana remains at home in Uran. She ends her days there, with some regrets.

Bearing a son for Trajan, out of love, was Roxana's Conscience goal. She does so, but her relationship with Trajan is never what she hoped.

We decided that the next round of characters would be the next generation after Roxana, Teodor, and Iancu.  Sean's new character is a firebrand student, newly returned from Ryeic and laden with strange ideas. iirc, Teodor is his hero because he was a man of action who shook things up.

Danielle's is (I think)  a young boy that Teodor took to Uran to serve a visiting Tucaescan leader. The boy was magically prevented from aging for a time, and was adopted by Urani wolf tribesmen. Now he lives and acts like an Urani, though he is of Tucaescan blood, and has some strange Urani magic about him.

My character is still not well resolved. My tentative idea is that he is a country cousin in the late Teodor's Vasiliu clan, who has come to the capital to make his way in the world, and promptly fallen in love with the Domnitar's daughter. Iancu is his hero, a cultured courtier, master of intrigue, paragon of civilized demeanor. I was having a hard time getting a character concept together.

That's where we left it.  It's not clear when we'll play again. I suspect Sean will have some comments to add.