Hi Everyone,

We have a new production option we might be able to use on future game books here at the Guild but its a bit unusual so I thought I would get some feedback.

For a while we've been looking for an good option to POD produce booklet covers. We have both a printer and a copier than can produce the color, but the lamination process we have to laminate the covers is less than ideal. Its time consuming and we're afraid books produced this way will sometimes have lamination that peels. So, not good.

Years ago we used to get really cheap pricing on book covers by printing up 4 boo covers (1pt cover stock, UV coated) of them at a time on a large 28" x 40" press sheet, printing 1000 of them, and then having them cut out. We've considered going back to that printing method, but another option is available to us and this is where it gets a bit unusual.

Under the method of gang printing 4 of them we used to get pricing in around $.42 a book cover. More recently we have doing a similar type of gang printing for game boxes and die cut game counters through a box manufacturer, but the difference is this printing is on a 28-30 point chipboard. Running some numbers I realized that if we paid for a new custom cutting die and had booklet covers printed up on these chipboard press sheets that we can get book covers printed at about $.38 per cover. And we can mix and match cover printing with game units and game boxes so the most covers we would ever have to print at once is just 2. So cheaper and easier to coordinate.

So if we go this route we'll have booklet covers that are actually .28 to .30 chipboard stock. UV Coated. That is about half as thick as the usual .60 pt chipboard that comprise the covers of hard back books. But three times thicker than a typical soft cover booklet and more rigid. But these books would still be bound like a traditional soft cover and trimmed to edge like a soft cover.

The questions are:

1) Would this be a perceived value increase over a traditional soft cover?

2) Could we justify calling these hard covers?

3) I have often seen many publishers justify a $5 to $10 increase on MSRP when shifting from a soft cover version of a book to a hard cover version. Part of that increase is necessary due to increased printing costs. But part of it is perceived value. If the 30 point chip cover is a perceived value increase, what sort of increased MSRP would be reasonable to represent that? I have a number in mind, but want to see your thoughts on it first.

Thanks,
Ryan S. Johnson
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
http://www.guildofblades.com
http://www.1483online.com
http://www.thermopylae-online.com

Hey Ryan,

Are there products available that use this sort of cover, from any kind of publisher?  Could I see it in use in a regular book store?  I'd like to handle one before offering any feedback. 

A coworker of mine has a very cool scandinavian book that's effectively a perfect bound book, but with surface mounted hardboard front and back covers that stop just short of the spine by maybe 1/4 inch. It's very much a novelty book, from the unusual construction and the small form factor, but I think it could be a great format for the right game. When you first see it you just can't stop yourself from picking it up.

If you want, I'll see about taking a couple of digital photos?

Paul

I'm having a hard time imagining that, Paul.  A photo would help!

I probably know what Paul's writing about. Or I think I do. Anyway, if I'm thinking of the same thing, then that technique is also used in the universities (around here, at least) to bind graduation treatises and such. Those are usually in A4 size and only printed on the right side page. Essentially just a bunch of photocopies bound together with a hard cover.

Ryan

I've played around with doing book covers on chip board. Since it makes your covers cheaper it certainly is worth doing. I'm dubious about calling it a hardback. I did a print run of a science fiction novel for a customer using this method. He didn't feel it was a hardback and on retrospect I agree. You might add a dollar or two to the price but don't bill it as a hardback unless it is.

I fully understand about the delaminating problems of in house laminated covers - Lord I understand! My most recent experiement is to print covers on paper and spray glue them to posterboard. When I cut it out I leave a big margin on the sides. The whole thing is prefolded so the margins fold in as flaps around the edge of the book. The item is run though the laminator back to back with another cover so only one side is laminated. When I trim them out I fold in the sides and glue them down. Once the book block is glued in the laminated edges are covered - so they can't peel off. I'll be doing up some books for a couple of orders this week with this method so I'll have more info on how it works next week.

All in all the technique you're describing sounds very promising and will add value to the books. It will make them more durable. I just don't know how much extra value it will be. It just won't be hardback value.

Chris Engle
Hamster Press = Engle Matrix Games

>>Are there products available that use this sort of cover, from any kind of publisher?  Could I see it in use in a regular book store?  I'd like to handle one before offering any feedback. <<

Hi Jason,

I've never seen a book with this sort of cover before.

Basically what we do when we want to print game counters and soon for boxes, maps and maybe these game books is we cobble together enough stuff to print to fill up a minimum of four press sheets at 20" x 28" in size. We can put anything on a sheet we want, though if we want them to die cut or cut anything out on their end (much better than trying to cut stuff on our end), then we have to have those items configure into a pre set cutting die configuration. We've been having blank boxes made on this weight chipboard for years because this is the heaviest weight chipboard that most any printer can print directly onto, as opposed to printing on a thin sheet of paper and then clue laminating it to thicker chip board. The cutting dies used on this type of chipboard are cylinders and anything thicker than .30 chip is not flexible enough to roll on their drum presses. Anyway, conventional war game chip counters are .60 thickness and have the full color printing done on thin paper then get laminated to the .60 chipboard and then die cut on flat die cutting presses. They work out to be like $1 to $2 per sheet. We opted to go with full color printing directly onto the .30 chipboard because its reasonable thick for grabbing but works out to be like $.20 per game sheet of die cut game counters and in just 1,000 print runs.

Conventional hard bound books use the process of printing on thin paper then wrapping and laminating the printer paper to blank .60 chipboard. This is not meant to be flexible at all and hence why hard covers have fold areas built into where the hard cover chip does not cover.

The .30 chip is about as thick or maybe a bit thicker than the blank chipboard you often see as the support on the back of paper pads. Its still a bit flexible. We can make it work by having the printer put "fold" lines at strategic places on the cover near the spine but above the glue line of the spine.

I've never known any publisher to do this because the large printing presses are set up to do perfect binding with soft covers or can large automate the process of hard cover creation and then binding. This is basically using a chipboard cover that's halfway in between as part of a standard perfect binding process. The only reason it might make any sense for us to do it this way is because we can gang print these with the variety of other chipboard related items we are already printing for our game productions. I can't imagine doing this separately for a book production would make any kind of fiscal sense and most book printer/manufacturers aren't set up to handle what is essential box printing.

Simply try to imagine your standard soft cover book, but with a chipboard cover (approximately .30 point) compared to the usual 10 to 12 point soft covers (.10 to .12 thichkess). Thats half the thickness of a hard cover. There would be one or two fold lines built into the chipboard running along the sides just above the glue line of the spine to make it so the covers can open without needing to bend link a soft cover.

Ryan S. Johnson
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
http://www.guildofblades.com
http://www.1483online.com
http://www.thermopylae-online.com

>>When I cut it out I leave a big margin on the sides. The whole thing is prefolded so the margins fold in as flaps around the edge of the book. The item is run though the laminator back to back with another cover so only one side is laminated. When I trim them out I fold in the sides and glue them down. Once the book block is glued in the laminated edges are covered - so they can't peel off. I'll be doing up some books for a couple of orders this week with this method so I'll have more info on how it works next week.<<

Hi Chris,

We experimented with that process. Both for soft covers and with in house hard cover creation. In both cases we found the labor to be to intensive to be practical. The labor costs offset any gains from in house production. Might be ok to produce very limited quantity special editions, etc, but I can't imagine trying to maintain an entire line of books using that method.

Maybe if we do this we'll simply have to invent a new book cover terminology and use that for marketing. So instead of having:

Soft Cover

&

Hard Cover or Hard Back

We might try:

Chip Cover. :) Then we can play up its thickness as a feature.

Ryan S. Johnson
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
http://www.guildofblades.com
http://www.1483online.com
http://www.thermopylae-online.com

I think I may have seen something similar, if the backing for notepads is a useful reference, on some Japanese books.  The added durability and heft appeal to me and definitely add value, but as has been mentioned, it's not a hardcover and needs to be defined differently.

"Chip back books"

I like that. It is descriptive and "Chip Back" has a nice ring to it.

With the margin folded in books, did folding them in solve the delaminating problem? I know it is a lot of work - if it doesn't even work it is not worth the trouble. I'll just spray varnish the suckers!

Earlier in the thread someone mention attaching a thick over to the outside sheet of the book. I see a big problem with doing this. It will put a lot of stress on the outside sheet. It will run a big risk of tearing. If you do use this method it would be a good idea to glue the book block in to a posterboard cover and let that cover be the outside sheet. That would hold up better. It would lack a printed spine though which is a selling point for books. People like to shelf read.

Chris Engle
Hamster Press = Engle Matrix Games

>>"Chip back books"

I like that. It is descriptive and "Chip Back" has a nice ring to it.<<

Nice ring, but not really accurate. Hard "Back" books actually have a hard backing glued to the thinner color paper that wrap around that casing. The Chipboard covers we're looking at using have the printing directly onto the covers, hence, there is no "backing" per se. But maybe we could still use the term. It does sound better that simply "chip cover".

>>With the margin folded in books, did folding them in solve the delaminating problem? I know it is a lot of work - if it doesn't even work it is not worth the trouble. I'll just spray varnish the suckers!<<

Depends on your lamination type and your glue type. Some glues did not dry fast enough so after folding the lamination they could come up before the glue dried. The glue on the adhesive sometimes doesn't want to make a good bond between the interior cover flaps and the plastic lamination.

I haven't tried sprays yet myself, but my instinct says they will be time consuming also. Nate has been experimenting with spray laminates for his in house card productions so perhaps he could answer that one better than I.

Ryan S. Johnson
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
http://www.guildofblades.com
http://www.1483online.com
http://www.thermopylae-online.com

Maybe something along the lines of <adjective> Softcover, then?  Sturdy Softcover, Reinforced Softcover, etc?

Field binding?  Heavyweight binding?

I did the folded up cover experiement.

Oh my GOD could there be a more time consuming process?!?

The covers came out looking fine but took way too long to make. I won't repeat that process. All in all my recent forays into book making have made me see the benefits of outsourcing printing and bindery. I'm much more pleased with my folio format. Books really are a lot of labor. I'll do it for special projects but I don't see doing alot of game projects as books. I'm thinking puppet books will be my next big publishing drive.

Chris Engle

Books can be easy and affordable to print yourself, but you really need the right equipment.

Digital Duplicator is ideal for B&W interiors
Laser Printer or copier for interior color
Multi sheet collator. We have a 15 bin collator
Perfect Binder.
Cutter.
High quality laser and lamination option to print the book covers. Our outsource.

You can buy paper from a paper distributor at reasonable costs. Our last buy for 60lb offset white ran use $.0085 per sheet. Glue cost for the binder is a couple pennies per book. Cutter nothing. Looking at our production costs for books in the future if we use the chipcovers will like like:

.30 chipboard cover. UV coated. 4/0
B&W interiors. 112 pages on 60lb offset white.
Perfect Bound.

1) 56 sheets of paper at $.0085 = $.48
2) B&W Printing - Ink & Waste. $.01
3) .30 Chipboard Cover, UV coated. 4/1 = $.34
4) Glue for perfect Binding. $.02
5) Electricity usage for duplicator, collator and binder. $.05

Material costs = $.90

Labor Costs = Approx $.40 to $.69

This assumes print runs of 100 books at a time. Labor costs and waste costs go up a bit per book on smaller runs. Labor costs for over 100 books doesn't get any cheaper. 100 or so books is the volume break for operating these machines where you have more or less hit an efficiency of production.

Everything but the book cover can be to these small print runs. But the book covers just make more sense to outsource because of the labor involved of trying to make them in house. It would be possible with the right press and equipment to make short runs of 50-100 book covers quickly and cheaply, but that is more expensive equipment than we want to invest in at this time.

Ryan S. Johnson
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
http://www.guildofblades.com
http://www.1483online.com
http://www.thermopylae-online.com

Its the cover that I find the most labor intensive part. Out sourcing it sounds sound to me.

Ryan and I differ also on binding choice. He has a perfect binder (which is fast) I have a smyth sewer (which gives a more durable bind). But it's teh cover that is key and I've not got a good way to do them.

Chris Engle

Sounds like it should make for a neat book. I certainly would avoid calling it a hardcover though, as that means something pretty specific to most people. It's probably worth specifying the difference from a softcover (perhaps Premium Soft Cover or Premium Perfect Bound?) as it probably would be worth a slight price bump (as along as it didn't cause problems with keeping the book open).

I'd also recommend avoiding the use of "chipboard" in describing the process to your customers. I suspect to most folks who don't deal with printing, boxes, etc, "chipboard" is something else entirely. The oriented strand board (OSB) sheathing material used in construction (the plywood-like stuff made of pressed together wood shavings) is generally referred to as chipboard, which may cause some odd reactions as people try to imagine a book wrapped in 1/4" sheets of OSB (would make for a just about indestructible book though :) ).

Ah. I did not know chipboard was common usage for another industry and another product type. Yes, that could cause some confusion.

Premium Perfect Bound. I like the sound of that. Its accurately descriptive. Though we'll have to explain the "premium" nature in our product texts. but that's ok. Its good to play up unique positive features.

Thanks,

Ryan S. Johnson
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
http://www.guildofblades.com
http://www.1483online.com
http://www.thermopylae-online.com

RE: What to call your proposed production format, I have a suggestion:

What's half way between soft and hard?
.
.
.
Firmback

Evocative, but defies presumption. Bold and cheeky, while still being accurate. A deep oak finish, touched by a lingering apple fruit... uh, whoops; sidetracked a bit there.
:)
David

I like Firmbound. It sounds good.

Chris Engle

Alrighty, here's a triptych. The images are a bit blurry. It's a small-ish book, so I was zoomed in, and the camera doesn't have motion stabilization. But you'll get the idea. The second image clearly shows the exposed edges of the flush trimmed, surface mounted hardboard cover.

If you're curious, it's a very clever Dadaist novelty book. The main body of the book is simply the chapter numbers. And it's indie. The creator is a Dadaist scholar who had a run of the books printed up as holiday gifts for colleagues and friends.

Paul

So the spine of the book, where the glue or sewing is, is exposed. The cover is a piece of binders board with a cover sheet glued to it. The whole book is then trimmed.

Boy that is going to put a lot of stress on the opening page of the book! Also it will have lots of edges to catch on that could lead to tearing. If the cover sheet was laminated it would delaminate pretty quickly. It's a good Dadaist joke but techincally it would have problems as a book.

I wonder about gamer's acceptance of art books as games. My experience at watching gamers look at my books over the years has been that they are very perticular about what they want to buy. Some things put them off. Something that looks wierd - not in a cool way - don't seem to work. They seem to want games that look like lots of people might play them. This makes sense - they don't want to have to work too hard to get players. Art books are by definition unique - not mass market - not going to be widely played.

Hey! That gives me an idea. Has anyone done D20 fantasy art books. I mean books that are really art binding, with set type, and beautiful binding? They could be sold for a premium price to collectors. Honestly the present D+D books, while they are hardback, are perfect bound and very vulnerable to falling appart. What could a real leather bound book sell for? This might be worth doing.

Chris Engle
Hamster Press = Engle Matrix Games

So the spine of the book, where the glue or sewing is, is exposed....Boy that is going to put a lot of stress on the opening page of the book!

Yeah, it's like the book is perfect bound with a paper cover, and then the hardboard cover is surface mounted to the paper cover. I'm sure there is a lot of stress on the paper where it serves as the hinge for the cover.

Paul

Or Firmback (from paperback and hardback)?
:)