I’ve been running a rpg game in the forgotten realms setting for about a year & a half now using my own fantasy rules. My game is called “Rise 2 Legends” and is D12 based not D20. I’ve run several games in my own setting “DE” and chose the FR because of it’s extensive reference material. I’d like to share with you all some of my experiences.

Rise 2 Legends within the Forgotten Realms, Waterdeep & the North began with a small cast of characters, Nikos Dimitri a spirit-warrior (ranger/druid type) son of the famous Sergi Dimitri, Captain of the Riders of Saradush set out to reform the company long retired with its former member’s descendants. In a short time he gathered the following troupe, Mina (a drow sorceress), Nanok (a shield dwarven warrioress) & Lyrr (really Severis (a Zent assassin posing as his victim). Once assembled, the new riders set out on mercenary like adventurers to gain fame & fortune. Early in their career they recovered a strange & ancient relic known as the pattern & one of four pieces that would make it whole & kept it for themselves while betraying their employer (who sent them to retrieve it). Then one dark night Mina confided in her companion Lyrr, that she would heading north on a sort of vision quest and left. Lyrr stole the piece of the pattern & blamed Mina. The riders chose to go after it & her. Their quest led overland to the city of Baldur’s Gate where they met a sun-elf wizard named Morn Ingstarr & an escaped Amnish slave named Brakken, who both joined the Riders. They boarded passage on the trader vessel Raynespout & sailed fourth onto Waterdeep, city of splendors & Mina’s trail. More to follow.
Jeff (nikos) is a retail clerk & long veteran of D&D whose no-nonsense practical playstyle always keeps the group from getting into too much trouble.
Mike (mina 2 morn) a number-crunching techy is the plot unraverler who’s always speculating on what’s really going on (always giving me new sneaky ideas unknowingly) and tends to drive the party forward with his insights.
Pat (nanok) comp science & amature movie director (pretty good too) plays the morally bound & somewhat quiet anchor.
Erik (severis) a blue collar, is the consummate joker (some what demented) and always keeps the group rolling.
Chris (bracken) an engineer, is the loud & energetic type.
Our Group, small but slowing growing (6p) get together about once every two weeks or so & have been playtesting R2L for about 5 years now. We gather at my plexi-glass covered hex table in me basement with snacks & sodas, BS for a while, then I’ll recap the story at present (handing out, well handouts occasionally) and the adventurers begin. Sessions consist of me presenting dilemmas for the players to overcome. Sessions are plot intensive but the mood at the table is very light hearted (lot of joking around, in & out of game) battles are tactical but not frequent (at least 1 battle per session) and often include many rolled blunders (which add a lot of hoots). At a sessions conclusion I’ll ask the players, how much they enjoyed the night, what they think worked & didn’t (rule wise) & what type of situations or things they’d like to do next. In between sessions I evaluate my villain pyramid & npc cast focusing on their motivations to develop story arcs & hooks. Gather thoughts on player input (in & out o game) then write a reference plot card which outlines various plot points which I try to adhere to at the next session. Sometimes I work on encounter stats of rummage for a map but in-game mechanics are mostly handled on the fly.
This is sort of a foundation to explore various mechanics & relationships to further polish me game. Tell me what ya think so far?
Thanx

Sorry, I suppose I should begin with a few questions.
My campaigns run over extended periods of time, so setting up one requires some sort of plan. What I do is create my pyramid of villainy. Firstly I choose an uber villain with whom the heroes must ultimately vanquish/foil. Then I come up with that villain’s immediate subordinates & allies, thus forming a second tier. Then subordinates & associates to them for a third, then fourth & so. Until I have half a dozen tiers to the pyramid. With this as a reference & can begin to plot lower tier adventurers while keeping in mind potential plot hooks for further adventurers both laterally & up the pyramid.
Does anyone else do anything like this?
What do you think of the idea?

My system is class/level or template based (character advancement) and every few levels characters are awarded a rank in fame. Fame is a stat that has both mechanical & plot significance. With regard to plot, every time the heroes attain a new rank in fame, a higher tier in the pyramid becomes aware of the deeds & respond accordingly.
Does anyone have any suggestions on other ways I could incorporate this fame rank into the game, on a plot/story level (mechanically)?

How much time do you (on average) spend working on game sessions?
What tasks do you focus on in this time?

Oh, yea regarding GM fiat, Has anyone ever tried using random rolls to determine the outcome of a task or situation?

Guess that’s it for now.

Hello, abjourne! If no one else has said so -- even if so -- welcome to the Forge.

I think a lot of people do the tier planning thing, at least informally. Certainly I have created D&D campaigns with villains at various levels. I might not even stat them out early on, just give them names and a handful of special powers (spell choices, magic items, feats) that help drive the story (the wizard is planning to use temporal stasis to assassinate the king, but he needs the spell components...).

How formally do you do the tiers? Do you have a system for planning the levels of the characters and the number of characters at each level? At the start of a campaign, when the PCs are still low level, how do you choose the level of your ultimate bigbadguy?

Do you ever decide, "oh, and there's a bigger fish behind him!" at the last minute?

I assume from the game title that the fame mechanic is pretty important. The PCs are rising to legendary status. What does that mean in terms of player (not character) power? As the characters grow in fame, do the players have more ability to do stuff in the game? Social stuff, or also adventure stuff?

I stopped playing D&D regularly in part due to the prep time. I can comfortably ad lib a fantastic D&D 3E game through level 5-6, where things start to need lots of prep. By level 12, the prep gets insane. When wizards start getting 9th level spells at 17th, I want to pull my hair out. I was already "drifting" the game away from its core story ("kill monsters and take their stuff and become more powerful") and running political and social adventures and I found it got harder and harder to do that the more the players leveled up their characters. In essence, the game was doing what it did so well that I couldn't do what I wanted to do (which was counter to the game philosophy). So I'm looking for a D&D replacement and I'm very curious to see what you're doing.

Regarding GM fiat, sure, I've let decisions be made by die rolls. All the time. Player: "Does the magical pawn shop have a +3 weapon to sell?" Me: "Uh, roll a 20 and it will." (Or: "Make a Search check, DC 30, and it will.") Letting GM fiat decisions be made by die roll is a clever and useful technique that groups use to let players believe that the GM isn't really fiat'ing everything, when he still is, since he knows the probabilities. Best, the group is in on the joke (they know the probabilities, too), so it's at least in the open.

Can you tell me a little about Rise 2 Legends, especially how it differs from D&D since we both have that common reference point, and give some actual play examples that show how those rules rock?

I recommend you post a short instance of play. I think your post got the big tacit internet nod because you didn't really tell us much about your game. In fact, at first skim, I thought it was a D&D post without any meat, and only on a closer read did I realize you were talking about a game design. If you'd show us more of a game session -- more from the player side than the character side -- we could better see how Rise 2 Legends works!

I, for one, am excited to see more.

Adam,

Thanks for the feed back; it seems not too many people at the forge are very interested in a more traditional style fantasy RPG. So I pop up from time to time and send out a beacon.

Thank you for the welcome, but I’ve lurking around in the shadows for quite a while now.

As for the tiers, I initially make them very vague, at all levels of the tier, because I don’t invent a story up front. I let that happen as the game evolves.

As for the uber boss and most of your questions regarding the pyramid I can’t answer them. Allow me to explain,

When beginning a campaign the first thing I choose a setting, in the instance my current group, I selected the forgotten realms. Forgoing my own setting so I could work on it some more. Then I take into account how long I want the campaign to last (level wise). In this instance, I want the heroes to achieve at least 18th level. My group has been play testing the system for about four years now & I want to stress test it at higher levels.
The system will only support adventurers up to 24th level, after that It defiantly breaks down. Heroes become too powerful.

Knowing the setting & power limit I then can create a pyramid. In this case the uber is a goddess named Shar, mother of all the other evil gods and the goal is for the heroes to foil her plans, whatever they may be? I create my tier with each layer being filled with weaker & weaker foes all the way down to local thieves’ guilds & goblins. In general the more vague the foes of the tier the better as long as they’re appropriate to the setting. The relatitionship between these tiers is not initially important. Then I get together with the players.

I tell them the basic setting & level goal. From there we proceed to create their heroes to be. Their profession, family, relationship to each other, ambitions & cares and the setting itself (possible villains & allies). Until we have enough to fill out the hero sheet. This takes one session. If we have to end it early so be it.

With this information in hand I go to work, I re-evaluate the pyramid & setting, adding & dropping things. I select a bottom tier villain & script an introductory adventure & I plot the heroes Karma Check list. (More on that latter). Then I take them thru it. Each session from there on consists of the heroes resolving a dilemma or me introducing new ones based upon their choices & my tier. Every three levels the heroes attain a higher rank of fame & I drop a hook to higher level to the tier & tougher opponents.

The uber villain’s goal evolves as the game progresses. The opponents on the various tiers may or may not be a part of the uber plot. They could end up red herrings. I often rely upon player discussions during & after game play (with me & amongst themselves at the table). The story evolves. I only know where it ends, not how for a while.
To your question, I decide the level of the bad guy based upon what level the game is expected to rise to. I like to start big & let time sort it out.

Fame is a byproduct of the heroic adventuring, fame as a mechanic only tells the gm when it’s time to up the ante in difficulty. Player power revolves around how they choose to evolve their hero & respond to the story as it unfolds. The hero’s ambitions, loves, hatreds, skills, choices, sacrifices, power, allies & enemies are chosen by the player. These things are not just accomplished on a role-playing level, but mechanically as well.
The GM responds to the player & rules using the setting.

I hate high level prep time. The system limits character power by focusing level progression more towards internal conflict and not external. The NPC & Creature system is 10 times less involved then characters and require almost no prep time. A 10th level npc warrior is +5 on all combat stats; from there I only need to decide their motivation, profession (job) & main equipment (armor & weapons). 90% of the time this is done on the fly. Mages are just as easy. Monster stats are based upon their size (1, 6, 15 whatever) or Special Level (undead level +4, demon level +8) you just add motivation, lifestyle, resources & imagination.

GM fiat, the rules emphasize randomization according to fame rank & gm imagination towards the results.

Examples:

Player vs. player contest.
In a recent game two player choose the same love interest. During the session each other kept trying to woo the lass. One by demonstrating his prowess in battle, the other by pointing out his flaws. A third chose to warn the lady of them both and was challenged by the two to not interfere. The challenge consisted of claiming the third’s loyalty to them would prevent him from warning the lady. The third claimed he was morally bound to do so & resisted the challenge. The third made a loyalty check, failed & lacked sufficient morals to contest the results.

Player vs. npc contest.
The heroes ended up aboard a pirate ship as guests (theirs sank). A few strong willed npc’s wanted to overthrow the pirates. The player used his diplomacy to convince them to try & let him talk to the captain first (they met before). The npc’s rolled determine was 5 at 2. The player rolled 3 dice (diplomacy skill) +2 on each (persuasion) and got 3 successes (beat 5 three times). He then tried the same thing on the captain and misinterpreted his motivations for a determine of 11 at 4 (rolled) 7 failed. They ended up in battle but if the player had not misinterpreted the captain’s motivations, the roll would have been more favorable 1 & 1 Dice vs. 3& 3 dice.

Combat.
Let’s start with a skilled sorcerer in battle against three trained guardsmen.
After confronting the sorcerer the guards threateningly draw swords & a crossbow. Each of them is 8 meters away & 2 apart. Initiative falls to the player unless surprised, so;

Sorcerer, “These fools are no match for my power, I cast a command at the crossbowman & three stone strikes at one of the swordsmen.

The player then rolls four 12 sided dice and gets, 3, 4, 6 & 8. Uses the 8 to the command to SHOOT A COMRADE (a class two spell) and the rest towards the stones (class ones) and succeeds at casting them all. He then places 4 of his 5 spell cards over indicating that those points were expended for the round.

GM Rolls a D12 to resist the command and gets a 5 plus the guards willpower of 1 for a 6 failing against the sorcerers power of 11 and fires his crossbow at one of his fellows, who is moderately injured. Then he rolls 3 D12’s for the swordsman who tries to use his shield to parry the three bolts and gets, 2, 8 & 11 plus 4 on each for their shield parrying and blocks 2 of them.

The player rolls for damage, 1D10 for 7 total.

Minus 3 due to his armor (4 points/ eh damage)

since two of the guards are not within sword reach they can’t attack this round & the other re-loads his crossbow thus ending the first round.
The player resets his spell cards.

Second Round;
Player backs up 2 spaces (2 meters).
Two guards charge him & one takes aim.
Charge attacks are resolved during movement if they can reach & in this case they do.
Each sword wielding guardsman rolls to perform their attack & one succeeds.
The player casts a stone shield spell (D12) rolls a 9 plus 6 (counter spell) for 15 and foils the attack, but spends one spell point (flips over a card, 4 remain).
Movement has been concluded.
Player casts a 3 point “fireball” spell (class two) at one of the swordsmen. Spends 3 spell points and rolls 1D12, gets a 5 (fails). He’s down to 1 spell points. (trouble)
The swordsmen already attacked but the crossbowman didn’t. He fires & misses.
2nd rounds ends, 4 spell points are re-set.

Third Round:
No one moves.
Player casts summon pseudo-elemental & succeeds (4 spell points remain for defense).
The Guards attack and 3 sword swipes come in along with one crossbow bolt!
In the player tries two stone shields and succeeds against two blades. Then casts serpent armor against the striking blade (reduced damage) and incinerate arrows against the bolt (no spell points remaining).
2nd rounds ends, 4 spell points are re-set, 1 spell points are used to control the pseudo-elemental.

From this round the sorcerer will try and use the elemental to weaken the guardsmen while trying to reserve his spell points to pick at them or for defense until the elemental falls & he’s back up to 5 spell points a round. Had his supped-up fireball spell worked it would have seriously injured the one guardsman (power: 14, damage 3D12) but it failed.

More later, but quickly I want to say that I think your post received as little attention it did not because people aren't interested in more traditional-style fantasy RPGs, but because you didn't really give people much to talk about in your first post here. I'm trying to draw out some stuff to talk about -- maybe other folks will jump in now.

With this information in hand I go to work, I re-evaluate the pyramid & setting, adding & dropping things. I select a bottom tier villain & script an introductory adventure & I plot the heroes Karma Check list. (More on that latter). Then I take them thru it. Each session from there on consists of the heroes resolving a dilemma or me introducing new ones based upon their choices & my tier. Every three levels the heroes attain a higher rank of fame & I drop a hook to higher level to the tier & tougher opponents.

Okay, I have a little time to respond. It sounds like you're doing with your tier system what I do informally when planning a D&D campaign: think about the bigbadguys, give them some minions, give their minions some minions, etc. It sounds like you work strictly top-down. I work from both ends and meet in the middle. That is, I plan from the top and also from the lowest level peons that the PCs will encounter first, and work towards a common middle.

Fame is a byproduct of the heroic adventuring, fame as a mechanic only tells the gm when it’s time to up the ante in difficulty. Player power revolves around how they choose to evolve their hero & respond to the story as it unfolds. The hero’s ambitions, loves, hatreds, skills, choices, sacrifices, power, allies & enemies are chosen by the player. These things are not just accomplished on a role-playing level, but mechanically as well.
The GM responds to the player & rules using the setting.

Contracycle,

I suppose I’ll cover the Karma Checklist. Heroes are defined at the most basic level by Attributes (physique, health, agility, intellect, will, persuasion, leadership), Perspectives (ambition, cherish, despise) & Character (morals, passion, probity, modesty).

Attributes are used to define the heroes’ physical & mental abilities affecting combat, magic, skills & actions.

Perspectives serve a few purposes.
They help the player define who his/her hero is & what direction he/she will go.
The player chooses these perspectives, providing them a large amount of influence over the game.
They serve as situational specific karma re-rolls. For example a chosen despise might be dark elves and for this hero the player is granted one re-roll per game day when opposing dark elves. The same goes for ambition & cherish.
They serve an invaluable tool for the gm in fashioning adventures tailored to the heroes & thusly the players. In this regard they are used to create the karma check list explained latter and it’s awesome.

Characteristics are stats that can be considered similar to the D&D alignment system and accomplish several things as well.
They help the players define what kind of person their heroes are & inspire them to role-play.
They can be challenged by the GM or other players to achieve their own agendas. For example say one player wants to do something that would negatively affect another. The other player could challenge that heroes probity, claiming that their action would be an act of betrayal. Player challenges are encouraged.
They force players to balance who their heroes are versus how powerful they become. Every few levels the players are granted a bonus to their heroes’ stats. If they choose to raise an attribute they receive a penalty to a characteristic.
They may fluctuate from session to session. At the end of a session a player or the gm may propose a heroes characteristics be modified +1 to one -1 to another.
They are used to create the karma check list.

The Karma Check List is a randomized encounter/event chart the gm creates based upon the heroes’ perspectives & characteristics and the games’ setting & previous sessions.
Once the gm has all of the above information (including the villain pyramid) he creates a list for each hero. At the end of any session or any time the gm needs a jolt of inspiration he can have each player roll once or twice on their heroes’ chart. The chart is a GM EYES ONLY tool and this is how it works;
The gm declares a Karma check (pulls out his chart) & goes to each player one at a time and has them roll away.
First comes the randomizer roll D4 no modifiers, once or twice, gm discretion. This uses a simple chart that scuffles the results from roll to roll so the players don’t know what they’ll be rolling for. Then the player rolls the D12 once or twice & the gm secretly refers to the chart & gets one or two hero/setting tailored plot devices to focus on for each hero.
This is how it’s made;
The gm lists each heroes’ name and their characteristics below that, with a few lines under each of those. After each characteristic the gm puts D12 + the modifier for the characteristic of that hero. Under these two more lines are labeled, 1-6 & 7-12. The 1-6 line represents a bad karma event/situation based upon the characteristic. 7-12 represents a good one. Each 1-6 & 7-12 line is filled out according to the following outline;

Morals D12+?
1-6 Bad Karma: an event or situation that hinders or retards the heroes’ ambitions.
7-12 Good Karma: an event or situation that furthers the heroes’ ambitions.

Passion D12+?
1-6 Bad Karma: an offense of some type committed by one of the heroes’ hatred.
7-12 Good Karma: an event or situation that reinforces or evolves one of the heroes’ cherish.

And the same is done for probity & modesty using a similar methodology.

In between sessions the gm only has to update the chart. Its an excellent tool.

I hope that made sense.

Adam, I try to address your questions tomorrow, thanks.

That sounds pretty cool, and I'd be interested to see a specific example of how you have gone from a specified character to such checklist.

Also, in your experience, do you find the table actually and directly useful?  That is, even with the roll process, do you ever find you just can't come up with anything?  How many items appear on a given chart; is a chart as big as it needs to be to describe the character, or is it a case of judging which of all the characters interests are most necessary to represent?

Cycle,
Here is an example of one heroes chart;

Severis, nightstalker of Selune (Professional Good Assassin)

Morals D12+1 (ambition: to join the ranks of the secret lords of waterdeep)
1-6 bad karma, Texter a paladin of Tyr god of law & a secret lord of waterdeep discovers Severis is a former zentarum assassin. He vows to never allow such a person to join the ranks of the lords. (meta-game scene)
7-12 good Karma, Severis discovers a doppelganger masquerading as a guardsman while night-patrolling (they’re wanted by the city)

Passion D12+3 (cherish Selune (diety) Evah’na (female npc)(hatred of the Zentarum)
1-6 bad karma, Ralleg a former Zentarum associate, hires a band of assassins to kill severis.
7-12 good karma, Evah’na divulges her intrest towards him (severis) with a girl-friend, but is reluctant to approach him due to his association with his friend (morn) (another hero whom also cherishes her). (meta-game scene) Note: she never mentions who she is talking about! (which one)

Probity D12-1
1-6 bad karma, Kane a henchman of the heroes has a conversation regarding luring severis into a trap with a mysterious figure. (meta-game scene)
7-12 good karma, Verne a rogue acquaintance confides in severis his far-vision of a year ago.

Modesty D12+0
1-6 bad karma, During a church congregation Bleskos Wavesilver (a noble patron) openly condemns severis as an assassin, demanding that he be expelled from the church.
7-12 good karma, Xale of the order of the blue moon, personally congratulates serveris’ conversion from Cyric, the darksun (former deity from a few levels ago)

This is done for each hero. I only have to think up new ones as the old ones are used and with only one roll per hero I could easily end up with plot devices to run at least one session if need be.

I often have the players each roll twice on their heroes chart if I end a session without a planned adventure on the next session. This gives me plenty of time to explore & develop the results.

I Hope that clarifies the idea a little.

Adam,

I’m currently in the middle of a re-write/edit as a result of my laptop crashing a month ago, but the players guide is 100+ pages. The GM guide is just piles of notes, charts & lists.

But here as some clairifications,

A player character challenge requires the player to roll the D12+ the corisponding modifier to the characteristic challenged. A roll of 1-6 with modifier means the challenge fails and a 7-12 means it succeeds.
The Example, Nanok had her loyalty challenged by Morn. Pat (nanok) rolled the D12 +2 (nanok’s Probity) and got a 5 total and failed the challenge, so Nonok couldn’t rat out Morn & Severis. If Nanok’s Morals were +1 pat could have attempted a re-roll claiming it was the right thing to do in spite of their association.

A skill challenge requires the gm to roll up the difficulty of a task based upon his fiat, but limited to the heroes’ fame. A basic challenge is D8+3, For the heroes I’m currently refereeing the maximum challenge is 3D8+3, minus 2 dice rolls and up to 2d4 number of required successes. They have a fame rank of 2.
Once a difficulty has been assigned the player may choose any skill that they can justify its relevance to the task at hand & roll that many D12’s plus one relevant attribute as a bonus.

The Example, Morn tried to convince the npc to wait. Difficulty D6+6 & 1d4 for 5 at 2.
Morn rolled 3D12+2 (diplomacy 3, Persuasion 2) and got 5, 7 &11. that’s 3 successes when only two were required.

When morn tried to convince the captain he misinterpreted his motivations.
Captain Klauth wanted revenge against the city & morn thought he wanted to slay a specific person within the city. So the negotiation didn’t go so well. Difficulty 3D8+3 (minus 2D8s) & 2D4 for 11 at 4. Morn only rolls 3 dice max. He did so & failed. If morn had not misread Klauth’s motives the difficulty would have been D8+3 & 1d4 or if Mike had chosen to more fully develop Morn’s negotiation skill/stats to say Diplomacy 5 & persuasion 4 he would have stood a much better chance.

Another Task example,
Severis wants to break into a chest, dealing for traps, locks & all that stuff. The GM rolls the difficulty 2D8+3(-1D8) & 2D4 for a difficulty of 8 with 5 successes. Severis rolls 6D12+4 (thievery 6 & agility 4) for 5, 6, 8, 10, 10 & 11, Four successes or failure. The GM rolls D12 Low is bad for Severis, high is good and gets 8 (ok). “Severis searches the chest finds a poison needle trap, disarms it, but can’t seem to pick the lock. Severis’ will is 1 so Erik may try & re-attempt the task, but if he fails again Severis gives up.

As to the differences to D&D besides what’s already been discussed.

The system de-emphasizes plusses in gaining power through diffusion, customization & non-alterable difficulties. For example, By third level a warrior gains +6 endurance (HP), 2 skill points & +1 to one of his combat stats, +1 to one of his weapon’s skills +1 to one of his stats but his Combat Finesse has increased by about 17% & he’s learned two new Combat Tactics and this is where the system shines.
Nanok an 8th level dwarven soldier’s attack score has only increased by 4 points, damage by only 2, including stat increases, magic items & weapon specialization, since first level. Her Finesse however, has increased by 58% & she has learned 7 additional combat tactics to use on her opponents.
In D&D the player says, ”I attack” rolls D20+9 & D20+4 then says, “Do I hit?”.
In 2 Legends Nanok says, “I make a light swing, a weapon knock, followed by a medium swing and I save 5 points for defense” Pat rolls 3D12 and says, “I failed the knock but my two attacks work” The gm then proceeds to explain how the opponent defends themselves & rolls accordingly.
The beauty of the system is by de-emphasizing plusses and re-focusing game play on options & internal character progression the game become more interesting, diverse & easer to play & prepare for.
The magic system parallels the combat with even more diversity & best of all it throws out the concept of mages constantly running out of spells so the game doesn’t have to stop for rest. Every play-tester has loved that about the magic system.

Is there anything you don’t understand or still have questions about?