Topic: Clarity on the Marketing Survey Idea
Started by: TwoCrows
Started on: 5/24/2007
Board: Connections
On 5/24/2007 at 8:48pm, TwoCrows wrote:
Clarity on the Marketing Survey Idea
Hey,
Someone was kind enough to point out to me that what I’m proposing may well seem like a scam, or that I’m trying to sell the membership something.
I am fully cognizant that trust is something to be earned through the exercise of integrity, and then only in time. I want a chance to earn that trust.
Maybe it was a mistake to present this as my “first thoughts,” because I do in fact have game ideas that I’d like to realize. The Forge was in fact responsible for inspirations causing me to want to write my own games, rather than trying to get my ideas published under someone else’s labels, and editorial control.
In a nutshell all I’m trying to sell the membership here is on the idea that a professional marketing survey created by, and for the Indie/Small Press Gaming Community would be a useful tool, and useful enough in fact to contribute to making it happen.
As we’ve all heard, “there’s no free lunch.” It will in fact cost money, and time to do this. We’ve all heard that in the business world, “time is money.” I’ve been costing it out, and the software alone that I would need to make it an industry standard survey is around 3k. The time is probably in at least the high hundreds of person/hours range. The full array of expertise needed to do it professionally is also not cheap. Yes, my wife and I are at least half of that expertise.
I’m not asking anyone on The Forge for one red copper piece. I’m not asking anyone on The Forge to lend me their services, or webspace so that I can earn money from thier efforts, or leave them holding an empty bag.
What I am proposing is what I think is a more than fair barter exchange, predicated on the notion that I can somehow at least recoup my investment in cash, and sweat equity at the other end of the tunnel.
What I am proposing is this –
1) Collaboration – in the creation of a professional marketing survey, by, and for the Indie/Small Press Community. In practical terms this means that collaborators submit ideas towards what they’d like to learn from the gaming community. The nature of those questions is wholly up to the individual collaborator.
Cost to become a Collaborator = something concrete towards the success of the survey. This could include things like: hosting a link to the survey; putting up a news blurb with a link to the survey on your website; posting a link to the survey on the forums you belong to; making the membership of your local community, game club, gaming group, etc. aware of how to take the survey; putting up with web techs to make sure the link works; taking any links down when the survey is completed; word of mouth at gaming cons; sharing your beliefs in the sincerity, and usefulness of the survey with contemporaries.
Again time is money, so no one does any of this without getting paid for it. What you get paid is a copy of the finished study, an analysis of that study, and more than likely me to barrage with all sorts of questions.
2) Sponsorship – the folks that are more in a position to afford professional business services may do some of the same sorts of barter items that you do, but they pay for the right to the esteem, and advertising related to Sponsorship. In essence they pay for the product, and the chance to learn what the collaborators learned. They get logos & links to their commercial websites on the survey page. They get bragging rights on their websites.
Perhaps some of the Small Presses on the forums, or The Forge itself might want that advantage. We can talk about that later if anyone is interested, because I don’t want to get this thread shut down for being a real sales spiel.
3) Saleable Product – the result of a professional survey is in fact a saleable product, and maybe the only means of recouping any up front costs. As the professional expertise involved in making this happen, I reserve the right to sell it, in parts or in whole, to anyone who is interested, just like I would if I had created a game through my interactions here.
There is no private information in a survey, so even if I wanted to I couldn’t sell collaborators’, or respondents’ addresses to a mailing, or tele-marketer. I wouldn’t anyway…I wouldn’t mind a list of tele-marketer’s information so I could hassle them at dinnertime.
Brad
On 5/29/2007 at 8:53am, c wrote:
Re: Clarity on the Marketing Survey Idea
Hi Brad,
Why do you think a marketing survey would be beneficial to Indie designers? I can understand why companies who have employees and more upfront costs would benefit from a market survey as they are serving a market. That is what they need to do to be financially responsible to themselves and their employees. As an Indie designer I don't need to serve a market and it's possible my products could introduce unidentified customers into a market. As an Indie designer I can also "publish" without any upfront cost via Lulu if I have good editing, Art, and layout skills. I can also publish a game with upfront costs that are so small I can personally write them off. These means I don't feel I need to identify what the market wants and I'm free to be as absolutely experimental as I like. I also feel I'm more likely to benefit by purposefully doing things differently than those who are serving an already identified market segment. I likely can't beat those guys, as they have more money to spend and more paid brains working on their product.
I also don't understand your angle. Who would pay? How much would they pay? What would they receive? Can we talk actual numbers and the way you intend to pay for them?
On 5/29/2007 at 5:30pm, pells wrote:
RE: Re: Clarity on the Marketing Survey Idea
Hi Brad !!! Unlike you, I'm quite convinced in the use of a survey, but really as a tool. My comments are as I see it.
These means I don't feel I need to identify what the market wants and I'm free to be as absolutely experimental as I like.
You have a market there. People who likes to try new things, experimental ones. There exists for the cinema and music fields, an underground, independant movement looking for indie product, for new things, outside of the "common market". There exists a strong subculture, with its author, its revenue, but at a different scale. This is our case. But, the subculture of indie gamers (be it video games or rpgs) still struggles to emerge.
So, I believe there is an indie market. And we sure could benefit to know it better.
Why do you think a marketing survey would be beneficial to Indie designers?
From what I understand, this survey would specifically adress the issues of the indie rpg community. We have a different market than, let's called them the big boys, so it is natural that we want to know different things about it, because we have different issues at hand.
I guess that's the kind of things we need work around. Things like "how did people get in touch with our product ?", "how did they discover the indie publishers ?", "how did they apprend this community at first ?", "how do they perceived it now ?", "what made them make the first buy ?", "what would they to see more ?". Well, I don't know exactly. I guess this will take some time to build. My point is, I'm convinced this could be useful.
A quick note (I've discussed thru PM with Brad the last few days) : there is one thing I understand about this survey thing. It is a trade, it needs expertise. I don't have it. And, I never work with those. So, what exactly can you do with them, I don't know. In my day to day job, I'm working something very specific that needs a very specific expertise, and it delivers a service (I'm a consultant for mobile phone billing SI). It's useful as a tool, but if you want it to do something for you, you'll need a couple of explanations first if you're not familiar with it (as a real example, people who comes from the marketing of those big companies, asking us to do things).
I also don't understand your angle. Who would pay? How much would they pay? What would they receive? Can we talk actual numbers and the way you intend to pay for them?
I agree with Clyde on this. And even more. If I understand this right, who would pay for data specific to the indie rpg ? Just as we need more or less a survey done by WoTC, since it targets a completly different market, who, beside us, needs the information retrieved from this survey ?
And, what exactly are you expecting from us, in exchange (for free as I understand it) of the analysis of this data ?
On 5/30/2007 at 3:20am, TwoCrows wrote:
Re: Clarity on the Marketing Survey Idea (pt 1 Long)
Ron,
Sorry for the mix up. I’m not yet conversant in Forgite’s Chant. I thought that the portion moved to Connections was one thing, and replies to the First Thoughts thread were something else. I stand humbly corrected. Hope I’m not wearing on your last nerve yet.
Paul,
If you’re following this, how’s my creativity weighing in so far?
Hi Clyde, Pells, and other Interested Parties,
My idea for a Marketing Survey of, by, and for the Indie/Small Press Community is predicated on a number of assumptions –
1) Indie/Small Press – Means Creator Owned Product Identity (COPI). That would include a range of products. Example Range = Monte Cook’s Ptolus (an OGL/d20 licensed product that includes creator owned COPI) to Paul Czege’s Nicotine Girls (a free product from a decidedly Indie designer that is all COPI).
2) Market – Means any space defined by any transactional relationship between the producer of a product or service, and a consumer of that product or service. This means that a free Indie RPG like Nicotine Girls indeed has a market. This means that viewers of any RPG website, including Indie-rpg.com/The Forge has a market. This means that any visible presence at any gaming community venue, such as Forge Midwest, the Forge and Ashcan Front booths at GenCon have a market. Money, pricing, and revenue are NOT the factors that decide what a market is, and NOT the only measure of what a marketing survey aims at gaining information about.
3) Cost – Means any exertion in effort, time, resources, or money towards the production and distribution of any product, or service. This means that understanding cost is exactly the same processes as everyday task prioritization, time management, and resource management, AND the business project cost analyses done by companies of any size or market share. Essentially it’s all the same things Indie designers have already done to varying degrees.
4) Of, By and For – Means exactly what it says. It means a Marketing Survey created via the curiosity of the Indie/Small Press Community, by members of the Indie/Small Press Community, and decidedly for the furtherance of their interests…whatever those prove to be.
5) Viability – That this project can be pulled off in terms of technical know how, industry standards, commercial viability, and the carefully weighed potential to both recoup any upfront investments/sweat equity, and afford the chance for at least a modest profit.
Clyde wrote:
I can understand why companies who have employees and more upfront costs would benefit from a market survey as they are serving a market. That is what they need to do to be financially responsible to themselves and their employees.
This may come off as harsh, but here it is. It is my opinion that good gamers everywhere are producing, and distributing great material, and tirelessly offering often thankless entertainment services to other gamers at a personal financial loss. I know that I’ve spent thousands of dollars entertaining my own long-term players; 25 years and still going. The return on my investment is the joy of exploring a shared fictional space together, and I only hope I can do it for another 25 years. This is the meat of worthwhile gaming to me, but what differentiates good gamers from Indie game designers, is that the latter ARE companies. They have at least one employee. They have cost related, including financial responsibilities. They have legal responsibilities. They have responsibilities to their consumers. They have responsibilities to their own design goals. Presumably they also have responsibilities towards both their public image, and the opinions of the gaming community regarding them, their products, and whatever it is they individually believe Indie RPG stands for as a subculture of the gaming community at large.
If what an Indie game designer produces changes hands to a consumer, even if that transaction is just for people interested in playing it for free, it has a market. My campaign players are a part of my market, and since half of them have been playing with me for 25 years they’re either fans, or just damned lazy liars puffing me up because they only want me for my mind.
Clyde wrote:
As an Indie designer I don't need to serve a market and it's possible my products could introduce unidentified customers into a market.
Yes, your products could in fact introduce new gamers, or reintroduce old lapsed gamers to a whole new way of looking at the hobby. They can also introduce aspiring, new or published game designers to a different way of thinking about the industry. Every time you let anything you’ve done cross the barrier of your skull you have an impact on the hobby. But if anyone besides you ever plays your game, receives your game for free, reads about it on your website (or even here on this forum) or pays for your game, you do in fact have a market that is worth understanding. The fact is many Indie designers already understand their market, and are producing sought after works based on that understanding. What I’m proposing would broaden the scope of what is known, and lessen the time it takes to get that information.
Clyde wrote:
As an Indie designer I can also "publish" without any upfront cost via Lulu if I have good editing, Art, and layout skills. I can also publish a game with upfront costs that are so small I can personally write them off. These means I don't feel I need to identify what the market wants and I'm free to be as absolutely experimental as I like.
There are always costs to any project, even those published through a niche tool like Lulu, or distributed as free ebooks, pdfs, etc. Let’s take Lulu for instance. No, you don’t have to have good art, or layout skills because to an extent they could give a rat’s ass about that, because it’s your product. They’re selling you a service, what’s it cost up front? Zip…yay I’m gonna be a published game designer! What’s it cost you in the long run, well, right off the bat you lose the right to be the publisher of record, they reserve that right to themselves. You may earn less per cover royalties than if you sold it yourself through your own retail website (depending upon per unit costs to do for yourself what they’re selling to you).
What else could it potentially cost you, or the Indie RPG Community? Well, to be frank with you, I think it potentially costs Indie RPG whatever hard earned image in the gaming community they might have because of the low editorial standards, the rush to get half-baked games to print, and the fact that by definition in my opinion it AIN”T all the way Indie…Lulu owns the record of publishing, you own the copyrights. In my opinion it ain’t really Small Press either. As bad as it sounds I classify it in the category of a Vanity Press with better prices. (No offense intended to anyone who uses them, and none to Lulu; I’ve considered using them myself, and might still if I can’t pull of my own Self-Publishing Small Press Label).
Small, and negligible costs are still costs, and understanding that better across the Indie niche might prove useful to all of Indie Gaming, not just designers.
Don’t sell yourself short. Every minute you dedicate to creating something you love, for the hobby that you love, has real and lasting value. Whether you decide to translate any fraction of that value into cold hard cash is wholly beside the point. If you’re happy with hobby level returns on your investments, or writing off an endless string of costs that are negligible to you, more power to you, and sincerely I respect you for it. You’re the heart of Indie, and good gaming! I, on the other hand, aim to earn a living in the Gaming Industry in spite of the fact that almost nobody believes it can be done.
Understand that when I use the term “market” I’m referring to some segment of the gaming community, regardless of how one chooses to distribute their products, whether they charge for them, or simply give them away free.
Yes, certainly you can produce a game based only on what you’d like to create. This in my opinion is in fact one of the distinguishing features of Indie RPG, and the mark of a self-confident creative. Now, if you’d like statistically collected, and analyzed information related to that phenomenon, and a way to learn how to better reach the people who’d like to have your product (no matter if its free), a marketing survey can do that for all of us.
Clyde wrote:
I also feel I'm more likely to benefit by purposefully doing things differently than those who are serving an already identified market segment.
This is the aspiration of the producers of all innovative products. It is also something that “Big Box” RPG already has data on. But let me caution you against confusing “an already identified market segment” with business practices that don’t jive with the Indie ethic. We’re talking about two totally different things here.
Clyde wrote:
I likely can't beat those guys, as they have more money to spend and more paid brains working on their product.
Okay, wow, where do I begin in tackling this one? Let’s start with brains.
In terms of comparing Indie RPG to “Big Box” RPG the situation with brains is more like what the Scarecrow faced in his quest to earn his desired boon from the Wizard of Oz, than it is the TOS episode “Spock’s Brain.” Again, don’t sell yourself, your industry, or your culture short. Indie RPG designers have at least the brainpower of anyone who has ever worked for any “Big Box” RPG company over its entire history. I’d venture to guess that the average Indie Gamer also stacks up pretty well in that department. What we don’t have as individual designers, or a community is some of the same tools, and business expertise “Big Box” RPG has merely by virtue of their purchasing power. THAT situation is exactly where I’m hoping to level the playing field.
I’d like you to think about this statement – “Most successful RPGs began as Homebrew.” (Copyright 2007 Brad Bennett; look for it on a T-Shirt at a gaming con near you.)
Competition is good for free market economies, and the market she be a’changin’. Not since the Stone Age have creators of products had a shot at the same level of control/reward individuals are now gaining for creator owned products. Individuals, and small businesses are now poised to shape the marketplace as never before. I want in on the leading edge of that change. If I can help define it by my own business practices, or contributions to gaming…even better!
Up until this point in history business, particularly in western culture, has been an Oligopoly, or at best a Meritocracy based on business acumen rather than the value of creator owned ideas, concepts, and products. Products of lesser value have won in the marketplace because of better advertising & marketing, or worse yet better B2B strong arming tactics, but NOT always because they were what the consumers really wanted. I still fume when I think about how shitty VHS is in comparison to Beta. I got along for a couple of years, until all the new movies I wanted were on VHS. (Ask me about 8-Track in private.)
continued...
On 5/30/2007 at 3:21am, TwoCrows wrote:
Re: Clarity on the Marketing Survey Idea (pt 2 Long)
Everyone with a day job at almost any kind of company is forced to sign a waiver transferring the intellectual rights of their work to the company. I want in on the shift to a model where those rights are not automatically the property of a company, or where individuals are more apt to be companies. I’d like to see all consumer product industries shift more towards a model that doesn’t load the dice simply by virtue of having more money in the bank, more lawyers on retainer, or more politicians on the dole than the average Joe. If other people want to sell their work that way fine with me, but I don’t.
“Beating those guys,” is NOT my aim. I’m not really even aiming at taking away a portion of their market share, why? Because I think the market is big enough for lots more diversity than it is presently carrying. If I, or any section of the Indie RPG Community just happens to shift their market share our way in the process, well all’s fair in love and business! If that happens it forces them to choose between business plans that better serves the desires of the gaming community, keeping up with a changing industry, or enjoying a smaller corporate bottom line. Either way it’s a win-win, which is where I like to operate.
If anyone from the “Big Box” RPG end of the spectrum has read this thread, it is very likely its caused a little water cooler talk already. It is also likely that they’re not taking it too seriously because they may well assume that the Indie RPG Community could never afford to step on up to their playing field, or even buy into the notion that trying to is worth the effort.
Worse yet, they may be dismissing us for exactly the features that make Indie games what they are…the insular focus, technical mindedness, and narrow scope of the typical Indie Game Designer/Small Press. That sort of opinion within the gaming community/industry is EXACTLY what I want to change. I want everyone, anywhere in the gaming world to take us as seriously as we take ourselves.
Clyde wrote:
I also don't understand your angle. Who would pay? How much would they pay? What would they receive? Can we talk actual numbers and the way you intend to pay for them?
Okay, really good questions! Let’s start with actual numbers. I’ll start with numbers relating to the marketing research industry.
Marketing Research Industry Numbers –
A top shelf Industry Standard Marketing Survey of the sort I’m proposing, built, run, analyzed, and presented to the Client (the Indie RPG Community) the way I’m proposing is primary research, which makes it more valuable. Normally no one in any industry could touch it from a reputable, industry certified company for under $20k. More likely it would be priced in the $30-80k range, depending upon which big box research firm one contracted to do the work.
The result of a survey of this type is Creator Owned copyrighted material. Depending upon the subject matter, how it was created, and how the data was stored/handled determines its salability in the marketing research industry, and among companies that find the data pertinent to their business. What I’m aiming for would be, I think, a highly desirable, and saleable product among many nodes that make up the gaming industry, and perhaps some outside it. Normally no one in any industry would be able to touch something like this for any less than $2k. More likely it would be priced in the $5-10k range. In publishing terms that price is the per copy cover price.
My Proposed Project Numbers – (Estimated Upfront Costing First)
My proposed Marketing Survey would be exactly the quality as I describe above, how? My wife, our friends, acquaintances & associates, and myself are all Marketing Research Industry professionals, which speaks to Pells’ concerns for professional expertise.
To do this in an industry standard, certifiable way I need some resources I don’t currently have as an individual, or new company. I’ll list, and cost them from the fingerwork I’ve done this week (this is unfinished so you get what I have):
$150-300: LLC through my Lawyer (I know I can get it cheaper on my own)
$200: Other Licensing/Registration Fees through my Lawyer
$300: Other Legal Consultation
$Unknown: Legally Binding Business Contracts (for Sponsors)
$1000: Marketing Association Memberships for the LLC
$Unknown: Better Business Bureau Membership for the LLC
$3000: Industry Standard Marketing Research Software
$Unknown: Suitable Insurance, including Errors & Omissions coverage
$Unknown: Contracting a Statistical Analyst from among associates
$Unknown: Contracting a Customer Liaison from among associates
$Unknown: Contracting a Client Services Manager from among associates
$Unknown: Contracting a Client Study Presenter from among associates
$0+: Tabulation Analyst from among associates
$0+: Deliverable Quality Assurance Specialist (Me)
$0+: Coding/Data Entry Specialist from among associates
$Unknown: Other Marketing Specialists, or Consultations
$0+: Database Administration & IT Security from among associates
$Unknown: Consultation(s) with Sociology/Psychology/Statistical PhD(s)
$Unknown: Dedicated Website, eSecurity, & eMerchant Software
$Unknown: High Bandwidth Capacity for length of eSurvey Conduction
$Unknown: Large Storage Capacity for Data for length of eSurvey Conduction
$Unknown: Web Services (Site Design, Navigation, misc. programming, etc.)
$Unknown: Website Backup Mirroring for length of eSurvey Conduction
$Barter: Multiple links pointing to dedicated website for length of eSurvey Conduction
$Barter: Grass roots advertising for length of eSurvey Conduction
$Unknown: Client Deliverable Data Media
$Unknown: Client Deliverable Presentation Media, AV Gear, Location & Consumables
$Unknown: Transportation, Fuel, Lodgings & Food for Presentation Staff
$Unknown: Customer Deliverable Data Media
$Priceless: Belief in the Project within the Indie/Small Press Community
$The Bees Knees: Making a lasting impact on the RPG Industry with this project
Current Total Est. Upfront Costs = $4,800 (Incomplete)
My Proposed Project Numbers – (Estimated Payoff under Five Models)
There are four types of involvement related to this project as I presently envision it:
0) Marketeer – Professionals doing the technical work, and conducting the study in such a way as to insure it is industry certifiable, statistically and commercially viable. They are the owners of the copyrightable material that the survey yields, and the folks taking the greatest risk to pull the project off.
1) Collaborator – Individuals forming a group of Indie/Small Press/Freelance designers, retailers, distributors, gamers, aspiring designers etc. This level of involvement is what would be considered the contracting Client in the Marketing Industry. These folks get the greatest amount of input into the formulation of the study. These are the folks that would normally pay from $20-80k for this sort of work to be contracted.
2) Sponsor – A sort of Customer that pays for the Deliverable, and gets some input into the nature of the study. These are the folks that would normally pay from $2-10k a pop per copy for the resulting data.
3) Customer – Folks that want a copy of the resulting data, possibly a consultation on how it speaks to their business needs, etc. They pay a higher price per copy of the product than both Collaborators, and Sponsors, and get no input into the formulation of the survey. They could be offered other marketing, or analysis services related to the product. Like Sponsors they are the folks that would normally pay from $2-10k a pop per copy for the resulting data.
I see five potential models under which this project could manifest:
Model 1 – (Robin Hood): Marketeers own the copyright to the product. Collaborators are the Client. They barter something concrete towards the success of the project, which is their cost to be involved. There is a limit to the number of Collaborators the project can handle based on the capacity of the marketing software, and size of the study. (I currently don’t have concrete information on this, but ordered an evaluation copy of the software last week.) They get a copy of the Deliverable, a consultation analysis, and possibly a group presentation of the study findings at GenCon the year following completion of the eSurvey. Sponsors are solicited to fund the project at $200 each up front, and possibly a discount on a range of potential add on services later down the road. They get the same as the Collaborators with some added extras. Essentially they are paying for the esteem to be involved, bragging rights, advertising, commercial links on the survey website, and a copy of the deliverable. There is no limit to the number of Sponsors the project can handle, but a minimum of around 20 is needed to contribute towards safely recouping overhead, and possibly leave some profits. Customers pay at least twice a much as Sponsors, get no consultation, or presentation, and no potential discount for add on services later. The method(s) through which this product is distributed could afford revenue potentials to participating retailers (ie. a slice of the pie to sell them, and they’re priced way higher than typical Indie products so that’s a fatter slice of pie). Customer purchases pay off any recoup left over from the Sponsor phase, and begin the profit phase for participating retailers, and the Marketeers. The Deliverable Product is sold for a set period of time, known only to the Marketeers, and afterwards is given to the Gaming Community for free under Copy Left. This latter insures greater up front scaleable interests, essentially the right to use the data for business plans before the competition does, and still preserves the creator’s contributions. Folks that think its smart to wait for the Marketeers to give it away…well they get what they pay for.
Model 2 – (Hyper-Indie): Marketeers share the copyright with Collaborators, but take a slightly higher % for professional expertise, and greater sweat investment. All this is negotiable. Both groups collectively become the Client. Collaborators are chosen on merit, and a much smaller number may participate. Collaborators share the risks, financial burden, and rewards of pulling off the project via some formula agreed upon in writing. Sponsors are no longer needed. The Client effectively becomes the sponsoring party. Customers pay out the nose for the product, which is sold only on the Client’s (Collaborator’s and Marketeer’s) retail websites. The product is available for a given length of time known only to the Client (Collaborators and Marketeers), and afterwards given away to the Gaming Community for free under Copy Left.
Model 3 – (Squirt): The scope, quality, and statistical reliability of the project are drastically reduced. The Deliverable starts off as a Copy Left product. A cheap software package is used, and Collaborators share the loss to purchase it. I offer advice on barter, regarding how to conduct an effective eSurvey that might yield information useful to a small handful of interested Indie RPG designers. The number of participants is decided by exactly how much loss a given number of participants are willing to eat.
Model 4 – (Lone Wolf): I do the whole damned thing with my associates, we split the upfront overhead and risks, charge what we can ethically get away with for the Deliverable, and everyone in the Indie Community, and Gaming Industry reads about it in the funny papers after the fact.
Model 5 – (Inspirator): Some collection of Indie folks, or silent observers reading the thread take what I’ve said here as inspiration, combine resources with others, and hire their own top shelf marketing research firm to do just what I’m proposing, and we all read about it in the funny papers.
Other Notes –
For the record I like Robin Hood the most.
No one involved would hand off effort, time, or money and have to endure silence until the project either completes, or fails. If the software allows it, and suspect it does Collaborators would be able to log into a password protected area to actually try out the eSurvey while its in various stages of production, the marketing equivalent of playtesting.
Sponsors would have similar utilities to see how their investments are faring.
Potential customers, and the general gaming community would have a public site to read news about the Survey Project, ogle Collaborator & Sponsor links, and maybe take a few wee studies as both practice for the Marketeer Team, and a promotional hook for the gaming public.
Potential Sponsors could be anyone from RPG retailers, news sources, manufacturers, and other Gaming Industry interests, to Snack Food companies (I like Doritos, Dominoes Pizza, Snack sized Snickers and Reese’s Cups, and Diet Pepsi for my game session snacks), Office Supply franchises (I use Staples, and Office Depot for my DM consumables), or whatever anyone else can come up with.
For spiritual, philosophical, and personal reasons I want to be involved in making the individual person the basic unit of sovereignty in western culture.
Is clarity on my angle still needed, or have I covered that question adequately?
Regards,
Brad
On 5/30/2007 at 1:11pm, TwoCrows wrote:
RE: Re: Clarity on the Marketing Survey Idea
A MOPI Prospects Marketing Clarity Pt3
Hi All,
Further clarity, and update is warranted in spite of the fact that I’ve written something on the order of 40,000 words on this idea at the Forge alone to date. Personal files on the project are now in the neighborhood of 100.
The DIY RPG Project© Idea – For anyone who is concerned that I brewed up this idea before coming to the Forge, let me assure you that is not the case. The idea came to me the same day I first posted it to First Thoughts, in fact just minutes before I wrote the post. So, the idea itself is just 8 days old.
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=23958.0
Industry Standard Marketing Software – The evaluation version of the software arrived this morning. (I could have just downloaded it, but I’m an old timer who likes software in a tangible form. I even ask Dell to send me OS CDs with every new PC I buy from them.) I will install it, fiddle with it, and let my wife test its analytical and data output formatting capabilities over the coming week. Realistically, it could be just right for the job, or it could be total crap. If it is crap, I have four other software packages lined up for which their ad blurbs seems to meet the needs of the project. I can order free evaluation versions of them as needed. I’ll share findings as they gel.
The Marketeer Team – Although many of us have discussed doing side jobs, and striking out on our own, and some of our associates are already their own companies, I’ve not floated this particular idea to all of them yet. I will be doing that, and feeling out the costs associated with contracting their expertise over the coming week. I’ll share findings as they gel.
Regards,
Brad
Forge Reference Links:
Topic 23958
On 5/31/2007 at 1:50pm, TwoCrows wrote:
RE: Re: Clarity on the Marketing Survey Idea
Hi All,
Another update –
I’m presently in negotiations with a Client Services Consultant, and a Project Development & Customer Relations Consultant. More as things develop.
Brad
On 6/1/2007 at 2:41am, TwoCrows wrote:
RE: Re: Clarity on the Marketing Survey Idea
DIY RPG Project© Update –
CS, and PD/CR Consultants are amenable to project. CS is amenable to doing Client Presentation, and Questionnaire Formulation, essentially filling two staff positions.
PD/CR needs to check day job conflict of interest agreements before fully committing.
CS needs a more concise time estimate of her two responsibilities before wholly committing, but has offered to help generate that information after seeing a comprehensive project proposal.
I am currently working on a Comprehensive Project Proposal.
A Database Adminstrator/Programmer/eSecturiy professional has offered a full range of services for free. "I'll do anything you need done just for the adventure of doing it," he said.
Ethics, and procedural questions regarding Sponsor advertising have been raised. Sponsor advertising cannot appear on the eSurvey Panel itself, or the risk of potentially contaminating respondent pool (the people taking the survey) ensues.
Presently seeking advice on whether ads can appear on Project Homepage…my sense is yes, they can, but I want definitive answers. I intend to show the project proposal to a freelance marketing consultant friend to resolve this.
More as it unfolds.
Brad
On 6/2/2007 at 5:28pm, TwoCrows wrote:
RE: Re: Clarity on the Marketing Survey Idea
A MOPI Prospects Marketing Survey Clarity QRE[sup]1[/sup]
Hi All,
Nothing significant to update, just a few thoughts that came to me during self-review (a process that a wise old boxer gave me some clever tips on once).
In reading over this thread, and its kindly quarantined parent over in First Thoughts, it dawned on me that my narrow focus, and technical mindedness could very well represent a hindrance to general understanding at the very most basic level.
Geekiness of all sorts has a way of sometimes creating a forest for the trees phenomenon, and even though I took a business seminar[sup]2[/sup] once that speaks directly to that concern, its more than easy to drift back into the same issues, if for no other reason than I am still a Geek speaking geek, only under different circumstances.
I should realize that Geeks don’t all speak the same language, and that after habituation to one geek language assumptions regarding jargon, meaning, usage, and most importantly understanding are often inevitable. One Geek just assumes that the other Geeks get it…because, well it makes perfect sense to them in their language, or frame of reference. “Why shouldn’t everyone get it, it’s sooo easy even a Caveman can do it?”
Example – My wife is one hell of a Tab Analyst/Do-It-All guru in the marketing industry, and I’m a fair number of rungs down the foodchain from her in what I do. We can talk marketing, and do regularly, but every now and then she’ll talk about something that I have no frame of reference for, or only thought I had one for…and BANG my eyes glaze over, and I have to ask WTF does X really mean? When I raise that white flag she has to stop, think about it hard, and then try explaining it a half dozen times before the light dawns over Marblehead for me. Exacerbating the situation is the fact that she spends a fair amount of her day using various programming languages, and finds English to be more of a second language.
Clue – Any time you have to stop to explain the very words you’ve used to answer the first question, or assume that just because you get it, everyone gets it, then you’re probably facing Geek Jargon Dysphasia (GJD).
So, in light of this realization, questions like “why do you think a marketing survey would be useful to us,” are illumined in a different contrast for me. What a basic question, and one that deserves an answer not hindered whatsoever by my own GJD.
Here’s an illustrative example I thought of the other day that gave me a chuckle. I’ll present it in the form it would appear in the Questionnaire that a person taking the survey would fill out. Keep in mind that this sort of question could very well appear in an of/by/for (obf) Indie Community research survey.[sup]3[/sup]
Earlier in the survey you indicated that you are familiar with the ‘kill puppies for satan’ roleplaying game. When thinking of that particular game which of the following choices best describes your feelings about that product? Choose only one answer.
1) Hate "kill puppies"
2) Hate "for satan"
3) I am the designer’s friend Travis
4) I am fixated on the designer’s anus
5) I am a fuckin' weirdo
6) Hate "for satin"
7) Scarily, I am for satan
8) I am a fellow blasphemer
9) Hate proboscises
10) Other, please type an answer in the box provided below
In very basic terms a survey helps people get at answers to questions that interest them. The survey professionals design a Questionnaire with the curious party that aims at getting those answers. They do this through a standardized process which is pretty much the same no matter the application, or which company does the work. I’ll illustrate this in a bulleted point oversimplified way, and then add Actual Play-like examples.
The Basic Marketing/Research Survey Template
• Someone wants to know something enough to employ research specialists
• The research specialists conduct an interview with the curious party
Curious Party – I’m interested in knowing why my game isn’t selling better.
Research Specialists – What kind of a game is it?
CP – It’s a rules light roleplaying game about either surviving the angst of misspent youth, or dying in the process.
RS – That sounds like we need to interview people who buy roleplaying games to get the sort of information you’re interested in.
RS – Then, we can begin by finding out first whether people are aware of your game, and just aren’t buying it, or simply aren’t aware of it enough to buy it in the numbers you’d hoped.
RS – Of the people we survey that are aware of your product we can ask questions about whether they have ever purchased your product, or products similar to it. Of the people who are aware of your game, but have never purchased it, we can ask them what they only think they would like or dislike about your product. Of those who have purchased it we can ask them specifically what they either liked or disliked about your product. This will give us an idea what people from different perspectives think about your game, or if maybe the buzz just isn’t high enough yet to get better sales numbers.
CP – Oh, and I wonder if maybe people are just afraid to play a new kind of game because it’s not what they’re used to playing, or not from a company they trust yet.
RS – That’s a good question. We can ask questions of the general population of people who buy roleplaying games what their feelings are about new games, and/or games that seem new and different from what they’re used to, and what impact that has on whether they’d buy it or not. We can also ask people who have played your game how they think it differs from other games, and what impact that has. We can also ask questions on how people feel about small, or new companies like yours. We can even learn specifically how many people in our survey sample have ever even heard of your company.
RS – What exactly do you think are the major differences between your product, and other roleplaying games so that we can better understand how to get at that information?
• This process is repeated multiple times to insure survey design goals are met
• The questions are then made into a sort of mock survey
• Programmers look at the survey, solve any issues, and put it into code
• The code is analyzed for problems, and handed off to other programmers
• The code is put into a form that can be used to interview people
• A selection of people who are pertinent to that survey are selected
• The survey is given to the people, and data is collected
• The data is analyzed, re-analyzed, and put into a wide array of formats
• A presenter puts the analyzed data into a presentation for the curios party
• A Presentation is done, and a question & answer session with the CP follow
• The work with the CP either ends here or more analyses are done
• Sometimes a followon survey is done to get even more specific information
• The CP can ask to have the raw data so their own analysts can work on it
All for now, more as it gels
Regards, Brad
Notes
[sup]1[/sup]I do all my pre-posting work on MS Word, and those that are suitable for retaining I keep as files. This list of gobbledygook is my personal filename convention scheme, which I write at the top of every document, so that when I hit save I don’t have to type in a name at the dialog box. It also makes docs easier to find later. On one of my posts I forgot to erase it before I posted. Now I think I’ll just leave them for this sort of thread.
[sup]2[/sup]Management Problems of the Technical Person in a Leadership Role
This is actually a seminar I highly recommend for Indie Designers, not least because it has what I think are pertinent tips on how to avoid the pitfalls of narrow focus/technical mindedness in a business environment. I took the onsite seminar, which I’m sure ain’t cheap, but they have in it a number of more affordable formats. The hyperlink is to the $69 online video course. Scroll down to find it. Check it out if it blows your skirt up. (Actually looking at their latest menu of seminars I may take a few more myself, the Project Management one looks really good about now.)
[sup]3[/sup]Other than needing sanitized to make it more suitable for a general audience, ie. loose the “fuckin’,” and “anus” this sort of question could be fair game in a survey of the sort I’m proposing. It could even actually make it a little more fun for gamers to take the survey. If nobody else likes the idea, it gave me a laugh just thinking about it.
On 6/4/2007 at 11:31pm, TwoCrows wrote:
RE: Re: Clarity on the Marketing Survey Idea
A MOPI Forge Clarity Closeout
Hi All,
This will be my last update concerning the DIY RPG Survey Project© on The Forge.
I would like to thank everyone who asked questions, raised concerns, picked my brain in private messages, moved me to the right forum, or just peeked in out of curiosity. Every bit of it helped, and I sincerely appreciate it. Again, my deepest thanks to everyone.
Special Thanx
Ron & Clinton, thank you for essentially letting me use this forum as a blog, which in my sense is at least a bending of the typical rules of engagement. That act (or oversight which I highly doubt given Ron’s hawkish gaze over this regal domain) alone represents a valuable contribution that I feel is worth its weight in gold.
If this project takes flight, and either of you find yourselves interested in participating, The Forge has a standing offer to be THE top billed Sponsor at no charge. As I see it you already paid me via the barter of the best damned advertising I could’ve ever hoped for!
Clyde, thank your for lifting up my rock to the potentials of inexpensive web services, and the example of your fine websites.
Spécial grâce à Sébastien Pelletier pour son soutien, gentillesse et conduite en tout réfléchie. J'espère qu'il n'est pas absolument pas de vous compter comme un ami. Les félicitations pour le succès de tous vos projets. (I hope that came out well enough to at least make sense.)
Last Update
Marketeer Team – The Team still consists of only two members. Those who have been approached to join the team are in various stages of deciding if they want to commit, or even can commit to involvement in the project. No contractual arrangements have been made.
Software Testing – The survey software testing is behind schedule, at least in my estimations, but I’m not in a position to prorate anyone’s bid prices for that discrepancy. Actually, if she even catches wind of this last statement I’ll probably end up sleeping on the couch!
Comprehensive Project Proposal – A project proposal is in the making. Currently it is somewhere between the research and conceptual phases. When completed it will be presented to all potential Marketeers, Collaborators, and Sponsors after being vetted against legal consultation, industry ethics, business, and research standards.
Webspace – Efforts are under way to move the DIY RPG Survey Project© out of the category of hot air speculation into that of concrete action. A website dedicated solely to the project is in the making. When it manifests you’ll see it as a hyperlink in my sig file at the bottom of my posts…just like the other adult human beings are doing around these parts.
Regards, and many thanx, Brad