Hi,

Finally ran the game I was talking about in http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=23848. I raise some general issues in the AP thread (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=24038.0), but I've got a few specific rules questions as well:

1) How do I represent large groups of SGCs, mechanically? Using the stats given in Snakes in the Shadows, I treated the (unspecified numbers of) Bamboo Warriors and Panther Clan tribesmen as single individuals with the listed abilities. Is this normal for TSOY? Sensible?

2) Several times, a contest went badly against a PC and all that I could see for the players to do about it (if they didn't want the results) was to spend gift dice or BDtP (which I was keen to avoid for the most part). Is this meant to work this way (i.e. once the rolls are made, you go with whatever stakes were agreed for that dice outcome).

3) On a note related to both of the above, a combat that's a one-on-one duel is pretty easy (the two characters have a simple contest) but what's the best way to handle a multi-character combat (several PCs versus several SGCs)? Do we have to BDtP to do this?

4) When are gift and pool dice meant to be spent? Before or after the main dice hit the table? There's a reference in the 1st edition to keeping back gift dice until after the provisional result is known, but I don't think that's in the 2nd edition.

Finally, has anyone done a version of the "Secrets and Keys" document where the main list has all species and culture keys included? The most common situation for us was knowing the name of the thing, not what species or culture it belonged to.

A "Secrets, Keys and Abilities" version would be good, too - this is then effectively a shopping list for advances. As noted in the AP thread, nobody having an intimate knowledge of what secrets and keys there were made it difficult at times.

I might do this myself if I find the time.

Rob,

Here are some super-non-canonical answers from me to your questions, as someone who's run TSOY a few times, and is about to do so again. I'll rely on other folks to present their dissenting views. The answer, so frequently, is, "Whatever works best for the people around the table at the time," but let me try and be more specific.

1.) Exactly the way you describe. As long as you know the Ability they're calling on, and the level its at, you're good to go. I sometimes provide a bonus die (or dice) to represent superior numbers squaring off against an indivudal (a Khalean tribe who get the drop on a single PC), but if the stakes are even on both sides, I drop those (two fully complemented Khalean pirate vessels squaring off against each other, or one tribe fighting another).

2.) Why are you keen to avoid BDTP? A few rounds of it can be very helpful, and it *is* in many respects the mechanic designed to bail out a simple die result that players want to avoid. As long as you're setting the stakes too cut-throat, it should be okay for players to lose, even in single rolls or BDTP. The story follows naturally from what happens in the aftermath. It's a good idea to set non-lethal stakes against players, or else deal with the very real ramifications that lucky dice rolls might result in PC death, and you might have to decide what to do next from there. There are options, of course, but none of them are fast and easy. Consider captivity, loss of possessions, death of friends/family, and even serious injury/maiming as viable options before lethal stakes.

And, yes, that is totally what gift dice, pool points, and the like are for, to help bail out rolls that players would like to modify.

3.) I've run multiple single contests in parallel before (you know, three PCs square off against three named Storyguide characters, each making their own rolls, and defeating the opponents or not in single combat), with the only ones going to BDTP that the players want to (i.e. they call for lethal stakes against SG characters, or someone disastrously flubs a roll and takes it to BDTP to get the results they want). Its certainly possible to run full-aught parallel BDTP running at the same time, but it can get convuluted, as well. I'd recommend doing what feels best-- we've had great success with other people who quickly vanquished their opponents jumping in to help their friends during BDTP (seeing as how they were already done), but pace it how you think it works well for the story. There's definitely not a "wrong" answer here, nor one that will hurt the narrative or balance of the game.

4.) This is a big personal preference one, and different people treat it differently for different reasons. I used to say that pool points and gift dice could be spent at any time, either before or after dice were rolled, and that usually meant they were only spent afterwards.

I'm since modifying this, so that in the current game I'm about to run, our house rule is that gift dice MUST be spent before the roll, but pool points can be spent at any time. This eliminates a problem which my game table has commonly referred to as "pity dice", wherein gift dice were used to bail out any bad roll which a player made, rather than to reward cool ideas and vote for the narrative people think would be exciting. We had a huge group (7 players, 1 Storyguide), and with somethig on the magnitude of 64 gift dice around any table, it was fast getting to the point where any randomly weak roll got bailed out by so many gift dice that players inevitably had the highest roll possible on any ability check. It was getting dry real fast, and far worse, it was quickly ruining one of the most interesting things about TSOY, which is that the worst character on the best day can beat the best character on the worst day. Too many gift dice = garuanteed maximum results = effectively pre-determined results before contests. I'll keep you posted on how this works out in our new Ammeni game, once we get started, but I suspect that it'll eliminate the problem nicely.

And in answer to your question, I'm sure someone has. I'd offer mine, but its for 1st edition, is modified by house rules, and has lots of other stuff that we've added, so I suspect it'd be a confusing labyrinth rather than the guide you're looking for.

I'd suggest just downloading the text from one of the Creative Commons versions, doing a little cutting and pasting, and making your own to suit your needs best. As an even more useful element, if your players start creating their own Secrets, Keys, and Abilities, you can add them to your document as your own personal TSOY bible, which will be even more helpful for your players. Based off of the design of the Storyguide who introduced me to TSOY, I pass out "One Sheets" to people when they start play, one for theCulture and one for the Species that they choose. They've got all the pertinent Abilities, Secrets, and Keys on them. Then its just a matter of making sure people have copies of the Open Secrets, which I know you can download in a nice crisp pdf format.

Good luck, Rob! Sounds to me like you're totally on the right track.

-shadowcourt (aka josh)

The answer to that last question is, of course, that the Finnish version has the crunch listed alphabetically. Haw haw haw.

For the other questions, I'll try something short and clear:

Multicharacter conflict: When there are several characters on one side, have them all roll Ability checks in order, with earlier check results becoming bonus dice for the later ones. The last check result then becomes the result for their whole side of the conflict. The order can be either highest-to-lowest or according to situational sensibility; I prefer the latter in almost all situations.

Large groups of nameless characters: Give statistics to their leader, and give him and Ability of "Lots of men under his command". Then have him use that Ability to do anything. Alternatively, have him using "Smiting" or whatever, but give situational penalty dice to his enemies for being overpowered. Still alternatively, declare that he's getting bonus dice from the men under his command. Give him this Secret:

Secret of the Leader of Men
Whenever this character leads a group of nameless NPCs, he gains a bonus die per head under his direct command in anything where those men are useful, up to a maximum of his current Instinct Pool. He may also direct any Harm he receives to these men, who suffer casualties equal to level of Harm. Cost: 2 Instinct per level of Harm redirected.

Unwished conflict outcomes: Don't declare stakes you don't want to have happen under any circumstances. The rules system might force you to carry them out. Much better to choose outcomes that are highly adversial and painful to the characters, but ultimately do not ruin the game. Also, as Josh said, BDTP. That's why it is there.

Thanks guys, that pretty much resolves those issues. There's one other thing that I raised in the AP thread but no-one has picked up on:

Rob wrote:
I had the players calling scenes, and M struggled to get a grip on what he called "the richness of the environment". I.e. he didn't know what was there that he could interact with. For example, at one point he proposed a scene with a beggar on the forest path so that he could refuse him help, thereby getting xp from the key of self. I overruled that (basically, on the assumption that players aren't meant to have full director stance or be able to create SGCs) but I'm not sure I should have done.

Rob wrote:
Thanks guys, that pretty much resolves those issues. There's one other thing that I raised in the AP thread but no-one has picked up on:

Rob wrote:
I had the players calling scenes, and M struggled to get a grip on what he called "the richness of the environment". I.e. he didn't know what was there that he could interact with. For example, at one point he proposed a scene with a beggar on the forest path so that he could refuse him help, thereby getting xp from the key of self. I overruled that (basically, on the assumption that players aren't meant to have full director stance or be able to create SGCs) but I'm not sure I should have done.

I'm a bit unclear what the intended level of player authority is in TSOY, with regard to scene framing, SGC introduction and so on. I found this thread here:

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=19463.0

where the issue is raised and Clinton says he doesn't have a particular intended strategy. But how would you old hands would handle the kind of situation I described, or respond to M's query?

My first reaction would be to refuse the scene, just like you did... it's not a rule by any means that a player would have right to declare scenes. On the other hand, the SG is fully within his rights to take input. Thinking about it, it's perfectly viable to do that kind of a scene when a player asks for it. My first reaction is different mainly because my players don't usually think along those lines: they're looking to drive their characters into Key-situations via the events in the fiction, instead of just asking for them. We play a lot of other games that explicitly give scene framing to players, but TSOY isn't one of them for some reason when we play.

If I was allowing something like that (as I well might with a new player or somebody new to roleplaying; I don't like to block stuff before we've worked out the social contract at the table), I would problematize the situation in my role as adversity-provider; either the key-scoring would require some sort of sacrifice, or the act of scoring the key would lead to some interesting situation. In that regard I'd use it just like Andrew says, in a manner similar to how refresh scenes work. That's the model here: players can call for refreshes, but that gives the SG an opportunity to introduce new twists in the story.

Anyways, to put it simply: my default stance is that there is no external player authority in TSOY, although the SG should keep an open mind for suggestions. Any additional authority a given player might want may be easily enough granted via Secrets, where it can be set in rules and ritualized in a manner that perhaps makes the authority easier to use. For example:

Secret of Off-Road Path
The character has a special relationship to the old forests never felled for farms. When the character travels this old forest, the player may activate this Secret to frame the character's next scene according to usual group standards. This may be intentional on the part of the character, like if he was looking for something specific, or it might be something the character doesn't expect or even want. Cost: 3 Instinct.

Thanks all, I think that's answered all my questions for now.