I had a flash of inspiration and completely redesigned the system. Then, I posted straight to 'Connections', which now seems very premature. With about four hundred and fifty views on my post in 'Connections' and not a single reply, it seems likely that there's some sort of huge problem - Especially since someone who liked the character sheets did an about-face upon seeing the rules.

So, I don't have a specific question yet, partially because he hasn't had time to tell me what the problem is, so I'm just wondering - Is there anything, some game mechanic or the complete lack of a setting or etc. - That is, well, bad. Something that puts up a big, huge 'Avoid Me' sign. I have no clue - I'm in the forest and all I'm seeing is trees.

.Zip here and .Rar here.
Main rules, example character sheets, optional subsystems.

Thanks muchly.

I had a look at the main document, with a lazy consumers eye rather than a researching designers eye. I'll preface by saying I've actually tried to read a few indie games here and there and I've often found it damn hard - they often go into defining terms at length and talking about choices without any context to what you'd ultimately try to achieve. It seems a recurring issue in indie design, atleast from my perspective (I don't know how others like Ron read through these things - I just can't absorb it all without the context of a goal in which to frame it).

I can't describe what I think is a falling down point, don't have the words. But I can describe a solution to that fall point I see and you'll be able to see it and decide if you agree or not. Sorry for the awkwardness, but the words aren't there.

Okay, a solution (so as to highlight what I think is a/the problem): Set up a scene appropriate to your game right at the start, design it so it will resolve in just a few rule uses. Also make sure those rule uses will take as little reading and internalising as possible. Then flow chart those rules, and rephrase the rules to fit the scene to make it flow (ie, don't talk about to hit rolls in a generic way, talk about rolling a hit on the orc that is in the scene). And I really mean a flow chart, so all the user has to do is trace his finger along it and decide which fork he takes at yes/no questions. And as I said, make it finish quick.

Sub note: In terms of simulationist or damn close to simulationist play (I don't know what agenda your aiming for), as I understand it they should just go on, and on, and on. In this case instead of having it end quickly, you should ensure the flow chart loops, but a very tight loop. This allows the reader to envision the loop quickly.

I'd also talk about the next step, user created content, and still not throwing them into the deep end and instead having another flow chart like above. But that's enough for now - can you see the problem I'm suggesting is there, by the solution? I'm not pitching the solution as if you have to agree, it's just to show what I think.

I think the problem you're suggesting is that it's all options, with nothing to say how those options are used? I could definitly see how play examples could help a lot.

My solution is so players can open the book and play right now. Not after a great deal of reading, memorising and internalising rules and their structure. Play right now. Not even examples of play - playing, right now. That play, assuming its fun, is the incentive to read the rest of the book. It's a bit like a demo of a computer game whets your appetite for the full game.

That's how I'd describe the problem, anyway (via describing a solution).

Oh, you mean a short intro adventure like a 'Choose your own Adventure' book?

In terms of describing the problem by a solution, yeah, I think a mini choose your own adventure is spot on. AND I'd really like to see that :)

Sorry to have described what I think is the problem in such a round about way - I think I would have been even more round about simply describing the prob I saw.

Now I'm looking forward hopefully for an indie game with a mini choose your own adventure in it :) Do you think there's much prospect? :)

I think I can manage that. But Ron doesn't like idle chatter, so...

...How to I put down choices when the very damage that is done is chosen by the player? I could limit the results to a selection...

Well, from the playtesting I did manage to do, it appeared to me that conflicts take too long to play out. So, I wrote a conflict resolution alternate and wrote the beginnings of a mini story using those alternate rules to show how the rules work. Same bat place, same bat download.

Sorry for the double post, but there is no 'edit' button.

Opinions?

I think it delivers something alot smoother. It was quite fun to read and though I didn't really understand what was going on, the images it drew upon kept me reading on. Which is a really good foundation for someone being drawn to look into it further, to check it out more. But at the mo I don't understand d10-d10, or where attribute modifiers come from (like the -4 for the orcs broken arm). I don't really need to know for a pick a path thing anyway, as long as I can follow some dice rolling for dummies instructions :)

I started reading expecting a mini story. I know this probably ended up a playtest of the system, but keep in mind if you decided to go for a mini story, you don't want to just do examples.

On the other hand, what was on those two pages was a fun little read - it'd be better to accidently stray into fun examples rather than get into difficult to internalise rules (ie the problem I described before).

What was it like thinking about writing a mini game writing up the example? Was it different to crush it down to a short example - has that given you some perspective on the rest of the game? Your question about the damage descriptor is quite interesting - how is that handled in a pick a path? The player can't just say it to himself, it wont hold any water mechanically - so it makes you think about how descriptors are worked in.

Did you still need some help on that? You wrote some in for the example - could you just do that in the mini game, or is their choosing intended to be pivotal to system use.

I was thinking of having two columns; have the rules on the left and the minigame on the right, so a person could read the example at the same time as they read the rules.
Or I could intersperse the rules in the story, but that could make it difficult to look up rules.
Or just keep them as two seperate documents, but then people would have to flip between them.

The best might be simple instructions in the story and keep the rules seperate. Maybe introduce rules one by one, expanding one part and explaining as I go?

Yeah - It's a simple dungeon crawl and I'd have to fill in the details after I run through it. Hopefully the next version will explain things further.

I don't think a minigame would work as well as a mini story. I can't see myself getting near the variety possible in the game, so I've decided to just do the story. Or...I don't have to know what the person chose. I can just have generic options, like 'If you killed the orc, go to page #', 'If you subdued the orc, go to page #', 'if you gained the orc as an ally, go to page #'. That might work. But I think I'll write the story first - It'll be easier and tell me whether a minigame is needed, as well as giving me a skeleton to hang the minigame on if I do write it.

The conflict resolution rules can now use static difficulties and the mini story has been re-written for comprehensibility. I'm looking for feedback on rules density as well as general feedback.

Ooops, I used mini story and mini game interchangeably in my post above - I'm refering to a mini pick a path adventure with both.

Anyway, in terms of rules and example, I'd suggest doing both - one pdf is just pure example and a second is the same, except example is in one column and rules are in the other, right across from the relevant example.

Or...I don't have to know what the person chose. I can just have generic options, like 'If you killed the orc, go to page #', 'If you subdued the orc, go to page #', 'if you gained the orc as an ally, go to page #'.

Yeah, I'll write the game story first, then see if I need a 'pick a path' adventure.

That makes sense, except one rules-only, one examples-only and one both. Shouldn't be too hard to mix them.

Hmm...Could do that with some sort of 'Spoiler Space' endline...

Thanks. Um, is anyone else reading this thread?

I am. I just don't have much to add on top of what has been said till I've had an opportunity to read the file.

Nice idea with the "Istincts".

Thanks, but it's not mine. I 'researched' it off a review of another game.

I havn't had a chance to test it, but I do like the idea.

I read (or glimpsed through it at work) the main pdf and I have some comments.

There is as I see it a lot of problems regarding the GM and his role in the game. It seems to me there is not any difference between the traditional fiat-GM and your GM. If I were you I would try to get completely rid of the GM.
If you want to keep him, I think you should have the GM have some resources that he could use to set up difficulties in conflicts, create characters, barter with for scene changing a la fate points and such, basically everything the GM does. Basically I think everything in your text that says something is 'up to GMs assesment' or similar should be replaced with some rule mechanics for the GMs behaviour.

I like some of your ideas about conflict resolution. But in the example with the king I think there is a problem, again with the GMs role, because I dont really understand what happens mechanically if you succeed. Does the king get a 'really likes the PC +3' trait or something? And how does that exactly affect the kings character ? Is this up to the GM interpretation again?

Did you read the Story Does Matter article by Ron Edwards in the articles section? -If you didn't you really should.

There is also this standard list of questions for designers, I can't seem to find it in the articles section, so it is probably in a post somewhere.
One of the questions, which I would like for you to answer, is 'What is your game about?'.
Because of the title I thought it was about people telling tales in an inn, but now I think it is about playing out the tales (and whether or not they are actually ever told doesn't really matter mechanically)

Thanks for taking the time.

Quite frankly, I don't have a problem with the GM setting scenes, adversaries and challenges with essentially unlimited resources. GM's running rough-shod over the characters (Or worse, players) for their own amusement is a personality problem, to me, not a resource problem - And limited resources doesn't solve the essential problem. If I can't trust the GM to be fair and impartial with unlimited resources, I can't trust them with limited resources, either.

Yes, I realize that this can easily lead to the GM stringing the story around by the nose, But - That is still a personality problem. And personality problems need to be worked out by the players - Not the game.

This raises the question of why have players have limited resources to build their characters and you know, the only reason I can think of is my default gamist perspective. Which does raise the point of how do the characters gain in power if they don't start with a limit - So...Put that entirely in the hands of player and GM discussion. Let them decide how high or lower powered the campaign will be and whether or not everyone will start at the same power level.

I guess I just don't see why players need a 'nanny game' - But then, my RP experience has been good, so far.

And I should really put out guidelines for how many fate points characters get for risky actions.

That's a problem with me knowing a rule implicitly, but failing to express it explicitly - In the standard rules, the king would gain a -3 penalty to any action which opposed that condition. For example, in a court trial, they would get a -3 penalty to trying to rule against that character. Another implicit but not explicit rule would be rolling abilities versus each other if you really want to be 'Dice-impartial' in decisions.

Thanks for pointing out two gaping holes in the standard rules. That also shows me a problem with my alternate conflict-resolution based rules and how to patch it.

I looked in the articles section, but couldn't find it.

The name came from a freeform game I GM'd, in which I used my ideas plus ideas the players threw in the pot. My original idea for the system was to just throw things in a pot and see what stuck, so I used the same name I had used for the RP. I'm considering shortening it down to just 'Tales' to avoid confusion.

Power 19? I never did fill one of those out for this. I'll go do that.

Note that these answers are based on the assumption that the next version will use the conflict resolution rules, an assumption I found had taken up residence in my brain without very much conscious thought.

1.) What is your game about?**

Conflict, whether it be combat, social conflict, mental conflict, magical conflict or moral conflict.

2.) What do the characters do?**

Decide on goals and work to achieve those goals, overcome difficulties to achieve those goals and revise those goals.

3.) What do the players (including the GM if there is one) do?**

The players direct their characters actions, set the stakes they are willing to risk to achieve their goals and experience the gameworld.

4.) How does your setting (or lack thereof) reinforce what your game is about?

The game is very generic, so the lack of a base setting does not tell players what they should be playing.

5.) How does the Character Creation of your game reinforce what your game is about?

Everything that is relevant to the character and the characters' goals is recorded on the character sheet. If it is not relevant or wanted by the player, it is not recorded.

6.) What types of behaviors/styles of play does your game reward (and punish if necessary)?

The game rewards risk-taking by rewarding the most Fate Points (Player currency/Character points) to those who risk the most in pursuit of their goals. Also, in order to gain abilities other characters don't have (Magic, psionics, cyber, etc.), the character needs to sacrifice something of roughly equal value.

7.) How are behaviors and styles of play rewarded or punished in your game?

I'm not sure.

8.) How are the responsibilities of narration and credibility divided in your game?

The players narrate their characters actions and stakes when they win; the GM narrates NPC actions and stakes when they win. Stakes that determine another characters' actions are narrated by the characters' owner. The players are considered responcible enough to role-play and apply any penalty from loosing stakes, themselves. The credibility of an action is determined by the capabilities of the character, as interpreted by the GM. Merely difficult actions merely have a larger penalty for failure, which is a form of credibility determination.
Repetative actions simply to spam a goal, as determined by the GM and players, do not succeed.

9.) What does your game do to command the players' attention, engagement, and participation? (i.e. What does the game do to make them care?)

Everything on the character sheet is either what they want there or about getting things they want there.

10.) What are the resolution mechanics of your game like?

One d10 minus another d10 plus a primary ability, which contributes its full, primary value, plus any 'tagged' values which contribute their tagged, or secondary values, which is half the primary value rounded up. Fate points may be expended for a bonus to the roll and/or for rerolls. Abilities are used and tagged by including them in the narration. Repetative narration does not succeed by default.

11.) How do the resolution mechanics reinforce what your game is about?

Trying to get as many abilities involved as possible means that more of the character sheet gets used, which means players can hopefully see the use of everything on it and find it usefull.

12.) Do characters in your game advance? If so, how?

By recieving fate points for taking risks to achieve their goals, which can be traded for stuff on the character sheet. Stuff that is wanted can be bought and stuff that is unwanted can be sold.

13.) How does the character advancement (or lack thereof) reinforce what your game is about?

Risky behavior is rewarded, which should encourage conflict, whether it's PCs vs. NPCs, PCs vs. Environment, PCs vs. GM or something else.

14.) What sort of product or effect do you want your game to produce in or for the players?

The desire and imagination to come up with wild and crazy ideas and use them to produce cool.

15.) What areas of your game receive extra attention and color?  Why?

The stuff on the character sheet. Because in the end, that's where everything important to the character is, or where the player wants it to be.

16.) Which part of your game are you most excited about or interested in? Why?

The ability to create nearly any character. Because I like cool ideas and systems that don't get in the way of making them.

17.) Where does your game take the players that other games can’t, don’t, or won’t?

I think it has simple NPC creation - If the GM wants, he can simply assign difficulties to an NPC such as 'Melee 7, Ranged 5'. I find the character creation simple, so long as I have a concept. Basically, I don't think it can do anything other systems can't, it just can do nearly anything and pretty quickly and easily, too.

18.) What are your publishing goals for your game?

I'm thinking, free .pdf, with no more than fifteen pages. If it ever goes commercial, that will just be bonus.

19.) Who is your target audience?

Role-players who want simple rules that emphasize risk, conflict and sacrifice. And gaining stuff.

**Denotes key question that should be answered/discussed first and foremost when designing a RPG.

It is not really a question of the GMs resources regarding what opposition he can throw at players. It is more a question of whether or not control of the story is divided equally among all participants at the table. Usually with a game like yours I would say it is not.

The article is named System Does Matter, not Story Does Matter.

Yes. Power 19. I forgot that, I have been away from The Forge for too long it seems.

About your answers:

3.) What do the players (including the GM if there is one) do?**

The players direct their characters actions, set the stakes they are willing to risk to achieve their goals and experience the gameworld.

Conflict can involve characters, animals, monsters or the environment. In any case, both players
need to set stakes. Stakes can be anything, from the death of the other character to convincing the
character of some fact or opinion, casting an area of effect spell or building a ladder of pitons up the
side of a cliff face.

The job of a GM, to me, is to provide a fair and unbiased world for the players to play in. If the GM properly sets up and plays NPCs, the players always have a chance to affect things. In some games, the PCs are central and everything revolves around them (Exalted). Or, at the other end of the range, the PCs are bit-players running from one near-disaster to the next (Warhammer FRP, I believe). And yeah, all that could be split between the players, but when I think about this game that way, it just seems to loose interest.

Actually, yeah, I confused goals and stakes there, although the player does have to decide if the goals are worth the stakes and there is room for discussion.

Basically I'd say the reason to have control is once you have it, you can face adversity. It's like climbing a tree vs being winched up to the top - the lack of control in the winching isn't really a big loss, but you do lose adversity as well.

Narf,
Could you give me an example of how your rules function in a moral conflict?

@Callan S.: Good point about control. But I like the gamist aspect of character versus adversity, which in my mind works best with players and a GM. Maybe take a page from Donjon and allow players to narrate things into the game on a succesfull roll? Actually, the stakes rules would allow that already...Have to think about this more...

@BigElvis: Hmm...They can do the job; I'm not sure they could do that well. The rules treat every conflict the same; either inflict a negative modifier or set stakes and roll. The rules then presume that the person with the best roll has the best arguement, which is a neutral arbitor.

But perhaps a third conflict resolution would be best for more role-playing challenges - Something involving player consensus? Could have things resolved with a player vote, or have player votes give bonuses/penalties or just a simple majority veto of items that aren't that good.

On the other hand, the same could be said of physical combat.

Maybe a simple "For each person to show a significant positive reaction, you gain X bonus. For each person to show a significant negative reaction, you loose X penalty". Only written in a more interesting way.

All these conflict resolution rules could be modular, too. Ugh - More work. But the result could be worth it.

Can I get some opinions on my Primary/Tagged mechanic as versus continueally-reducing returns (Primary, Primary/2, Primary/4, etc.) or straight add? Thanks.

Muddling about with refining the rules for the next version, based on a thought I had. That thought being, the entire purpose of at least a third of the rules is almost always to generate a character sheet. Previously, I would write rules to get the character sheet I wanted. Then I thought, 'Why not write a character sheet and then extrapolate rules from it?'.

Anyway, how comprehensible is this? Does it show the character concept well?

Bren Highcloak
55/60 Fate Points

Abilities:
General:
I've been everywhere (I do not get lost; I've met a lot of people; I know how to survive rough conditions; I know field medicine) Rating: 5/3/2/1, Fate Points: 20.

Area:
My favorite weapons are dual rapiers (I know how to fight with them; I know the history of rapiers; I know quality weapons; I can asses an opponent) Rating: 4/2/1, Fate Points: 8.
I know field medicine (I know medicinal plants; I know how to treat an injury; I know poisons; I know posionuous animals) Rating: 5/3/2/1, Fate Points: 10
I was born a minor noble (I have some social status; I was trained in history; I was taught math; I was taught combat tactics) 4/2/1, Fate Points 8

Singe Effect:
I am quite adept at dodging. Rating: 5/3/2/1, Fate Points 2.5
I am quite good at counterattacks. Rating: 5/3/2/1, Fate Points 2.5

Reflex Actions:
When I sense immenent, unknown danger, I immediatly dodge. Fate Points: 3.

Items:
Specific
My primary rapier was made by a master swordsman (It is easier to counter attacks with it; It has a sharp edge, allowing better cutting attacks; It is unlikely to break; Its strength is usefull when lunging) Rating: 2/1, Fate Points: 2.
My secondary rapier was also made by a master swordsman (It is easier to parry with; It is easier to evade attempts to disarm me; It is unlikely to break; Its flexibility is usefull when piercing armour) Rating: 2/1, Fate Points: 2.