Okay. Warning: What you may encounter below could be life changing, opinion altering, or healthy! :)

There - my warning is out of the way.

One of my projects that I have been fiddling with for over a year now is THE CROSS. The Cross aims to be a Christian roleplaying game with 3 distinct goals:

1) The Cross RPG is to be a fun, action-packed game reminiscent of action movies. No, I don't want a game about black trenchcoat wearing guys who walk around and try to convert people. Yuk. I want something that is generally appealing to everyone.

2) The Cross RPG is to be a game that does not look upon Christianity as stodgy, corrupt, nor old-fashioned (which most popular rpgs do). Instead, the game will present Christianity as presence of imperfect individuals in a broken world -- a presence of people who despite their imperfections are concerned with the evil that is lurking in the corners of humanity.

3) Finally, the Cross RPG is to present a manner in which people (not just Christians) can struggle with the issues surrounding violence and faith. This part has me worried the most.

With all that said, I have some great source material to work with (the Bible anyone?). But this is still a very daunting task. My current-extremely rough write-up and webpage is :

http://www.mysticages.com/theCross : webpage
http://www.mysticages.com/theCross.rtf : game doc

So, I can probably handle #1 with ease. I can do #2 fairly decently too, although I warn you that my view of Christianity is fairly liberal. #3 will be the toughest one, considering what it means. I was considering being simple - and doing something related to the way Otherkind handles it. As a Christian, the more violence you commit, the less faith you have -- but it might be necessary....

Comments? Is this even doable? Am I wasting my time, and should I just focus on writing a new fantasy world to submit to Wizards of the Coast? :)

Any suggestions or inspiration? Point the way!

And before anything else happens, I appreciate all of your thoughtful comments and criticism in advance.

Thanks,
Nathan

Hi Nathan,

You're right that #3 is the biggie. I happen to be reading A.A. Attanasio's The Kingdom of the Grail right now, and as with many other works, I am having no trouble at all understanding, empathizing with, and basically "getting into" the Christian outlook of most of the characters (Christian meaning medieval, semi-apocalyptic, in this case).

In other words, most people in my experience are perfectly capable of empathizing with and sympathizing with interesting characters of faiths and world-views different from their own. The basic human conflicts we all face are easy to relate to.

So - my call is that the game should focus on problems and situations (a) that we can all relate to, and (b) that faith/religion can uniquely help deal with (in your view as game-author). That way, a person may or may not be ideologically all-about-Christianity, but he or she can "try it on" for story-creation purposes (just to pick my favored mode) or whatever other RPG purposes (because they'll work too).

Not sure if I quite made my point, but tell me what you think.

Oh yes, and it will help a lot if you were to specify what sort of Christianity you mean, especially in terms of actual institutions.

Best,
Ron

I've seen some of this before.. I don't remember exactly when, but I've seen the "mission statement" message on a website.. Maybe I was just browsing.

I'm generally a system monkey like many others here, but what you've given is kinda sparse, so I'll let it be for now, and just address a point or two I thought of..

1. I dislike the term Mob. It makes me think of Mafia, which isn't the connotation you're looking for, I believe. I cannot for the life of me remember where I read it, but I believe there is a passage in the bible, Revelations I think, where the minions of Satan, both demonic and human, are referred to as Legion. Unless I'm wrong, I think this would both be more appropriate, and sound neater, too. Perhaps, if you can find the verse, quote it in the text before introducing the "Legion".

As for Faith, you might consider using it somewhat like Spiritual Attributes, in The Riddle of Steel. Have the character's Faith be directed in a given direction, and whenever a situation applies under that direction, the Faith attribute can be used to enhance the character's abilities in some way. Examples of directions: Evangelism (informing the uninformed), Caretaking (helping the downtrodden), Exorcism (banishing the Legion), Defending the Faithful (specifically from hostile actions of the minions of Satan)... These are only a few examples, but perhaps they could be expanded upon, and actually codified into the game, giving specific directions a character can go, or left more freeform, to allow the players to choose their own Faith focuses.

Miracle Worker - Too mundane an ability. If they're to be working Miracles, then it really ought to be a Miracle, rather than just reversing a failed roll.

Teacher - Again, a rather dubious ability assigned to this role. Anyone could take Teacher as one of their skills, so in what way does this role shine?

Helping - ??

A suggestion for a role, or as an alternative or addition to Teacher - Scripture Interpreter (stupid name, but I can't think of anything better just yet) give this person the ability to quote scripture to drive off the Legion, or to empower the actions of another character. Also, give them the skill of Scripture Reading +10.

That's all for suggestions/commentary right now. I think the game has a very interesting premise, and honestly, I'd like to see where it goes from here.

(General Comments)
If I was going to write a Christian RPG (and I might someday), I would really take a look at Liberation Theology, particularly in Latin America. I think its a very good and poignant model. Without getting preachy or stepping outside of the sphere of game design, I think I can say that the Premise of Liberation Theology would make for a pretty provocative game:

LT Premise
Is it blasphemous to care for people's souls while ignoring their needs for food, shelter and human dignity?

I've never found a Christian RPG yet that impressed me with its quality or Premise. Too many of them are plain ol fantasy heartbreakers where everybody plays paladins and the world is very B&W or gunbunny games where the 'good guys' get to rationalize murder of the 'bad guys' without a lot of exploration into morality and theological thought b/c the 'bad guys' are unsalvageable monsters.

(Cross-specific Comments)
Here's my comments on The Cross so far.

1. ditto on ditching the 'Mob' and picking another

2. The Crosses' paramilitary structure reminds me (in an uncomfortable way) of HtR and Legacy: the TV show.

3. The Cross seems to fall into catagory 2 of my paragraph above.
"All agents get the following skills free: Knife +10, Guns +8, Stealth +8" tells me everything I need to know regarding why I would -not- enjoy playing this game.

4. What you call "Gifts" I would personally call "roles" and seem akin to splats/castes. If so, I'd approach them as such and offer them 1st in creation rather than last.

5. Tying in Life Points to Prowess x 3 just further points the way that this is going to be an action game with a lot in comon with GI Joe or Macho Women with Guns.

Sorry I sound kinda negative.

Thanks for the comments.

Ron Edwards wrote: Hi Nathan,

So - my call is that the game should focus on problems and situations (a) that we can all relate to, and (b) that faith/religion can uniquely help deal with (in your view as game-author). That way, a person may or may not be ideologically all-about-Christianity, but he or she can "try it on" for story-creation purposes (just to pick my favored mode) or whatever other RPG purposes (because they'll work too).

Ron Edwards wrote: Not sure if I quite made my point, but tell me what you think.

Oh yes, and it will help a lot if you were to specify what sort of Christianity you mean, especially in terms of actual institutions.

Best,
Ron

Hi,

Wolfen,

Scripture Interpreter

Hey Wolfen, thanks for the comments.

Wolfen wrote: Perhaps, if you can find the verse, quote it in the text before introducing the "Legion".

As for Faith, you might consider using it somewhat like Spiritual Attributes, in The Riddle of Steel. *snip*

That's all for suggestions/commentary right now. I think the game has a very interesting premise, and honestly, I'd like to see where it goes from here.

Hey Laurel,

Laurel wrote: *snip*
LT Premise
Is it blasphemous to care for people's souls while ignoring their needs for food, shelter and human dignity?

I've never found a Christian RPG yet that impressed me with its quality or Premise. Too many of them are plain ol fantasy heartbreakers where everybody plays paladins and the world is very B&W or gunbunny games where the 'good guys' get to rationalize murder of the 'bad guys' without a lot of exploration into morality and theological thought b/c the 'bad guys' are unsalvageable monsters.

(Cross-specific Comments)
Here's my comments on The Cross so far.

1. ditto on ditching the 'Mob' and picking another

2. The Crosses' paramilitary structure reminds me (in an uncomfortable way) of HtR and Legacy: the TV show.

3. The Cross seems to fall into catagory 2 of my paragraph above.
"All agents get the following skills free: Knife +10, Guns +8, Stealth +8" tells me everything I need to know regarding why I would -not- enjoy playing this game.

4. What you call "Gifts" I would personally call "roles" and seem akin to splats/castes. If so, I'd approach them as such and offer them 1st in creation rather than last.

5. Tying in Life Points to Prowess x 3 just further points the way that this is going to be an action game with a lot in comon with GI Joe or Macho Women with Guns.

Sorry I sound kinda negative.

Legion is the name of a demon that was a multitude of demons (yeah - I know. It was one and many at the same time) that Jesus cast out of a man and released into a herd of swine, which then stampeded off a cliff.

Nathan,

This is kind of harsh, but I just read The Cross, and I don't see how it's a Christian RPG. You hunt demons - although your Mob is a different take on them than normal - but none of the tenets of Christianity really exist in the game as anything more than White Wolf-style classes.

I'm not sure if this discussion would be better taken to private mail or not. I'll just make a brief point: Christianity's not about "kicking evil's ass." Christianity's about not letting evil (defined as temptation to deny God's will) have power over you in the first place.

I agree with a lot of Clinton's assessment. I think that a real thought-provoking, non-preachy but ultimately sincer Christian RPG is a wonderful idea. I would love to work on a project like this (though I can't right now). For TROS, the original idea for the Spiritual Attributes was aiming for a lot of this.

Faith is about making decisions and sticking to them, or changing them when you realize you're wrong. It's about the conversion of the individual when all other forces point the other way. You want an action-based RPG (I dig), not a black-coat-door-to-door game (which would be very difficult to make into a fun game).

I *highly* reccomend reading Henryk Sienkiewicz's Quo Vadis? (an incredible book) and anything by CS Lewis for good source material on the substance of a Christian hero.

Jake

This game, to me, drips with irony. I'm not sure if the irony is intentional, but it could be made so, and I think the game would be stronger if it were.

History tells us that when any religious organization shifts its focus from doing good to "fighting evil," it risks eventually becoming a worse evil than what it's fighting. Crusades, inquisitions, witch hunts, jihads... Now, in The Cross, we have holy terror(ists) with guns, operating in secret and mandated to kill anyone who gets in the way of their service to, um, truth and love...

So here's the question I'd want to explore if I played this game: are the supernatural entities of Legion (I agree, change the name) really an "outside" evil that I'm helping to fight off, or are they being created by The Cross's own activities? What does it avail to fight supernatural evil with earthly violence? The organization called The Cross is about as un-Christian as one can get, in the New Testament scriptural sense, though of course it's completely congruent with the medieval history of the major Christian churches. The Cross's brand of holy terror and the good and evil that results from it could be a powerful metaphor for the millennia-long cultural conflict between church and scripture.

The only possible justification for calling this a "Christian role playing game" when it states "...don't give me any of that Jesus loves everyone crap" would be the very strong possibility that those expressing that attitude in the game are wrong, and can potentially be revealed as so during play.

My cell, therefore, would be working against The Cross from within, trying to remain in the organization's good graces (so to speak) so as not to be cut off from vital information, but working to figure out what the higher-ups in the organization were really up to, seeking more spiritually sound solutions to Legion that draw on true Christian principles, and struggling with the conflict that to do these things still requires the frequent use of subterfuge and violence. Now that would be quite a game.

- Walt

Aggghh... you... post... faster... than... I... can...

I agree with Clinton's assessment at this moment. It is nothing more than silly action thing right now, but this is why I am talking to you fine folks.

Walt is the closest to what I was suggesting in the beginning.. I wanted there to be a terrific struggle. We are working for a secret organization that tells us to go in, use violence when necessary, and take out these "things". But I've never met my superior. The only guy we talk to is some guy who sends us encrypted messages in coupon envelopes. Are we doing the right thing? Are we pawns instead? And how do I know these people are working in cohorts with these parasites?

Worse, I've seen these parasites, and they ARE evil. I want to destroy them, but yet, is there a better way?

Cool stuff -- I hope to keep that edge. In churches across America, people disagree and argue about all sorts of things. I am part of the Disciples of Christ denomination. We believe "in essentials - unity, in all else, freedom". This reflects upon the game -- the essential is that the world has evil in it, and we need to oppose it directly and intentionally (not ignore it, not by accident). But, everthing else is up for grabs -- is there a motive to the Cross? Is my cell the only cell?

I will work on a new rough draft tonight.

Thanks,
Nathan Hill
nathan@mysticages.com

All your follow up posts are really helpful seeing where you want to go from what you have right now, Nathan. Good luck!

Damn you all, I'm really getting in the mood to make a new RPG. It seems like a lot of us have similar views on what we want out of a Christian RPG.

Of course, at least I already finished my WOTC contest entry and partway through my Cartoon Action one. *whistles innocently*

Although his personal views were decidedly heretical, and possibly the result of some kind of mental illness, I would highly recommend Phillip K. Dick's work alongside that of C. S. Lewis. I've never read anyone else who so poignantly addresses the functioning of faith in the most utterly hopeless situations. Not to mention that particularly in the VALIS trilogy, there is a lot of totally weird stuff that makes interesting material for RPGs.

--JB, who would also love to see a well-done Christian RPG. Though my premise for such a thing would try to address the sharp conflict between Christ's humanity and divinity. Not sure how one could do that, though . . .

I've always been a big fan of Millenium, and this strikes me as a more extreme version in terms of the "Holy Army" mentality. I'm not so hot on the idea of possession, as much as the demons work deals with other folks (thereby corrupting the person, and moreso by anyone else who they deal with). Then, the whole issue becomes a little more grey.

I highly recommend that you reward players for solving the problem permanently, at the root(by eliminating the corruption, creating redemption) rather than killing. If you kill a person, the demon will find someone else, but if you eliminate the negative energy, the demon starves. If you make it so that a demon is permanently bonded to a particular human, until the human dies, the demon will be in a desperate situation and will go all out to stop you.

I'd also like to see some form of counterintellgence agency or opposing group at work. You could crank the paranoia up to 11 with it...."My contact delivered a message, in the usual fashion, but if I understand this...we're to assassinate the mayor?" Lots of cryptic, weird, not so clear missions would be great.

Chris

As someone raised at arm's length from organized religion, this looks intriguing.

Three points:
1) The Millenium comparison is very apt. I think that particular feel, working more within "the evil that men do" would make for a much stronger game than demonic bug hunting.

2) Have you thought about Qlippoth, rather than The Mob? They're creepy, ooky and very much in the scavenger mode, in some cases.

3) I'd like to see actual faith brought into play. I'm big on the internal and external torment thing (as anyone who's looked at Le Mon Mouri knows), and it'd be nice to see the Agents' faith challenged in one way or another, whether through questioning their actions or through incidents which shake their morale. It'd also be good for Agents to be rewarded for keeping their faith, questioning it and having it withstand tribulation. If that's in the game, it'll both be a Christian game (I'd assume, not having any room to speak) and a game that allows some interesting stories beyond blood and thunder.

Sean

Well, hello again.

I have the new version available, which while still incomplete, is very conversational in tone and explains the most important tidbits as of yet.

I want to know specifically - scene-based resolution? Yikes! (I've been reading Storybones.. heh) It doesn't exactly work yet, but I am still fiddling with it. Specifically, in regards to the miracles, would this work?

I really like the way the Legion has come out in this version. No more information over The Cross as an organization yet, but that will come later.

http://www.mysticages.com/theCross.pdf

So did I still get my "bullets on a mission" action genre fun w/ a more serious tone and struggle? Maybe not yet, but closer. The big catch is that you have to convince the badguy that he needs help (whatever that means) before the Legioneer (heh) will leave him. If he doesn't what do you do? Take them both out? Or what?

You might see a bigger update tomorrow.

Thanks,
Nathan

Thanks,
Nathan Hill

Much, much nicer.

Honestly, though, I think there was some merit to the original "Gifts" you had. Gift was the wrong term, I think, but Role would have worked very well. Though I dislike stratified character concepts, something like this, where the group is a team and should work as a team, the idea of roles fits very well, in my view. Have one or more healers, who, rather than learning about guns and fighting (say, only martial arts, and never anything particularly damaging) they learn about healing of the body, mind and spirit instead. I dunno... Maybe it's just me, but I like this idea.

But overall, this is a definite improvement. I'm still much interested in seeing more. The scene-based resolution is funky to me, but I can see it being used to good effect.

One thing, though, is how plainly you state the possible corruption in The Cross. Personal preference, but I prefer a more subtle implication of such things, which allows the GM to decide whether or not he's willing to address the issue. Also, being so plainly stated seems to me that it makes it almost inevitable that players will have their characters questioning every order, which they shouldn't be at first, and even after time, it should only be those which are specifically disturbing. I guess what I'm saying is that the idea of corruption inside of The Cross should be a GM only revelation.

Oh.. And Legend Legion... Maybe Elder Legion?

Keep it up.

Wolfen wrote: Much, much nicer.

Honestly, though, I think there was some merit to the original "Gifts" you had. Gift was the wrong term, I think, but Role would have worked very well. Though I dislike stratified character concepts, something like this, where the group is a team and should work as a team, the idea of roles fits very well, in my view. Have one or more healers, who, rather than learning about guns and fighting (say, only martial arts, and never anything particularly damaging) they learn about healing of the body, mind and spirit instead. I dunno... Maybe it's just me, but I like this idea.

Wolfen wrote: But overall, this is a definite improvement. I'm still much interested in seeing more. The scene-based resolution is funky to me, but I can see it being used to good effect.

One thing, though, is how plainly you state the possible corruption in The Cross. Personal preference, but I prefer a more subtle implication of such things, which allows the GM to decide whether or not he's willing to address the issue. Also, being so plainly stated seems to me that it makes it almost inevitable that players will have their characters questioning every order, which they shouldn't be at first, and even after time, it should only be those which are specifically disturbing. I guess what I'm saying is that the idea of corruption inside of The Cross should be a GM only revelation.

Oh.. And Legend Legion... Maybe Elder Legion?

Keep it up.

Nathan,

Odd question, but are you trying to portray real Christian people fighting off demons (normal people, fantastic world) or Christian "super-heroes" - pardon the term - fighting off demons (people with fantastic powers in a fantastic world.)

I just can't quite get a grip on that - your setting looks like the former, but the miracles and prophesy and such look like the latter.

- Clinton

Clinton R Nixon wrote: Nathan,

Odd question, but are you trying to portray real Christian people fighting off demons (normal people, fantastic world) or Christian "super-heroes" - pardon the term - fighting off demons (people with fantastic powers in a fantastic world.)

I just can't quite get a grip on that - your setting looks like the former, but the miracles and prophesy and such look like the latter.

- Clinton

Nathan,

Don't worry about preaching - I was well familiar with the concept. (Nobody's business, but I'm sort of a Bible scholar.)

I get exactly what you're going for, but I think you might be going to far. The gifts of the Spirit are real as far as this game goes, but fact is, no one's prophesying anymore. (As far as we know - you know, that prophesy stuff takes a few years to pan out, not 20 minutes.) I'm stuck on this sort of mechanic right now, but you might want to make it where people do just normal people stuff, but are much better when "calling on the Spirit" or however you want to put it. See Riddle of Steel, or variations of Paladin for examples.

Nathan,

For the demon tail-kicking thing, you might want to look at Frank Peretti's works. He manifests the temptations and trials we face as physical entities, visible only to the gifted. The author and I definitely have different approaches to Christianity, but I won't deny that both concept and execution were excellent.

An option that I thought of while reading this thread was to prohibit lethal force and initiating violence to members of the cell. Killing the evil ones is counter-productive, because it denies them the opportunity for redemption, the ultimate goal of Christianity.

As for the Legion reference, it's Matthew, although I don't remember chapter and verse. I'm mildly concerned about calling the enemy Legion, given that 7th Sea went down this road. Honestly, mentally substituting Legion for Satan all the time got to be a pain, when we were definitely discussing the same concept.

As far as other RPGs that have gone down this road before, try looking at Sorcerer, which tackles the subject head-on, although admitedly from the other side of the fence. It sounds like you're going for a very different effect, but I honestly thought that the Humanity mechanic was one of the best tools for dealing with this struggle.

Nathan, in a game based around religion and faith, are you planning to focus exclusively on Christianity? Because an interesting question is: how do other religious (and indeed, nonreligious) groups react to the appearance of the Legion?

If you want to focus on Christianity exclusively, maybe because you think it's inappropiate for followers of other faiths to have the powers needed to fight the Legion, you will miss some interesting themes. (How will Christian and, say, Pagan 'cells' interact when they find out they are fighting the same enemy? Will they be able to see through their differences and work together? What about inter-religious romance? I see a lot of room for interestin conflicts here.) The problem is that I'm not quite sure what you mean with 'a Christian RPG' - is that an RPG meant to convert people to or inform them about Christianity? Is it an RPG where Christianity's basic ethical problems are the main themes? Is it an RPG where a character's power depends on him being Christian? Please enlighten me.