Topic: How do I make a body jump spell?
Started by: Ace
Started on: 6/12/2002
Board: The Riddle of Steel
On 6/12/2002 at 9:12pm, Ace wrote:
How do I make a body jump spell?
I was reading Anne Rice's Tale of the Body Thief and it got me thinking
Since aging cannot be reversed (Sorcerers can speed up entropy not reverse it) after a while many Sorcerers will have worn out their body.
I was thinking they could kidnap a healthy young body and put their soul into it.
The only thing is I am at a loss as to how exactly to make the spell .
I figure it would require Conquer at 3, Summon at 3 (to get the soul out) and Imprison at 3 to bind the souls and your skills and magic in place. Anything else needed?
Lets say you have the spell, you cast it and needn't worry about the aging as long as it doesn't kill you with strain or if you pass out so what? You will wake up in the new body. Thus you can use the whole Spell Pool to cast
Afterwords they could use a spell with vision and sculpture to change the new shell into semblance of the old one, agian the body might be 14 so you can stand the aging and maybe the old one into the new.
What say you folks?
On 6/12/2002 at 9:27pm, Bob Richter wrote:
Re: How do I make a body jump spell?
Ace wrote:
I was thinking they could kidnap a healthy young body and put their soul into it.
What say you folks?
Sounds good.
I think your spell ought to do it, though I'm no expert.
On 6/12/2002 at 10:10pm, Jake Norwood wrote:
RE: How do I make a body jump spell?
Speak up, ya'll...this is fascinating. We've been brewing up a way to handle this lately. I'm curious what kind of checks/balances would practically be put on the thing--not in terms of game mechanics, neccessarily, but in terms of "why don't more folks do this?"
Jake
On 6/12/2002 at 10:30pm, Valamir wrote:
RE: How do I make a body jump spell?
Brainstorming off of the top of my head...
What if swapping bodies was like a bone marrow transplant in that you had to find a suitable donor. You can't simply swap bodies with any one, you have to find a good match.
This provides obvious adventure hooks as the matching victim can then easily be either a PC or someone the PC wants to save.
Course you could do something sick and twisted and require that it actually has to be a linear decendent to work. Then you'd have motivated wizards coming out of hiding to sow a few wild oats...than coming back in a few years to collect their future vessel...
On 6/12/2002 at 10:31pm, Ace wrote:
RE: How do I make a body jump spell?
Jake Norwood wrote: Speak up, ya'll...this is fascinating. We've been brewing up a way to handle this lately. I'm curious what kind of checks/balances would practically be put on the thing--not in terms of game mechanics, neccessarily, but in terms of "why don't more folks do this?"
Jake
Well first, Sorcerers are pretty rare. Lets say you have a medium sized country. There might be 60 Sorcerers in the whole land.
Of those how mnay know those three Vagaries at 3?
Lets say 1/3
Ok there 20 Sorcerers who could do that, that doesn't mean that they would do it.
The thing is, it is murder, more or less. Like a lot of TROS it all comes down to SA's <yes I get it now :) >
If the Sorcerer has concience SA, thats a non idea for him mostly. Now when an otherwise moral sorcerer falls to evil like that, its a great story in the making
There is also faith. The act of body stealing is the ultimate hearesy against every faith on Weyerth and would you want to face the consequeces afterword instead of going peacefully to the after life?.
Having a faith SA renders the act pretty unthinkable.
Also where are you going to get an appropriate body without raising a fuss?
I suppose you could buy a slave if that is legal where you are. If slavery is illegal, kidnapping is pretty difficult to get away with in a village of 300 where "everybody knows your name"
This means, take the body-- work the spell---move. Not very pleasant
But a concienceless Sorcerer could grab a new body every twenty years or so and live forever.
Its just most Sorcerers, despite the power they wield, are no different morally than the average citizen of Wyerth.
No of the five or six in a country evil enough to do it, they may not even think of it.
If they do, 50 Body thieves on Mainlund doesn't seem unmangeable to me.
On 6/12/2002 at 10:31pm, Furious D wrote:
RE: How do I make a body jump spell?
Jake Norwood wrote: Speak up, ya'll...this is fascinating. We've been brewing up a way to handle this lately. I'm curious what kind of checks/balances would practically be put on the thing--not in terms of game mechanics, neccessarily, but in terms of "why don't more folks do this?"
Jake
Almost certainly I would require a massive SA sacrifice (similar to summoning demons). Also, require that the new host also be Gifted as well (that is, if you wish to use magic in the new body), which would severely cut down on potential victims. Just say that the ability to use magic is partly physiological.
Additionally, the target really has to be allowed a WP save. Maybe have both the caster and target roll against the CTN (caster rolls Art + # casting successes dice versus target WP plus Art if applicable). If the spell succeeded, but the target wins the opposed test, the caster's personality transfered, but is forever trapped inside the host with no control of the body (just an observer forever, unless Banished by another mage, as per a spirit). If the target wins the test by 3 or more successes, the mage's spirit is dispersed into nothingness.
And failure in casting the spell should result in death for the caster (your soul flies out and is dispersed or something).
This really should be hard, and should have lots of potential perils and pitfalls to discourage it's use.
On 6/12/2002 at 10:34pm, Brian Leybourne wrote:
RE: How do I make a body jump spell?
Jake Norwood wrote: Speak up, ya'll...this is fascinating. We've been brewing up a way to handle this lately. I'm curious what kind of checks/balances would practically be put on the thing--not in terms of game mechanics, neccessarily, but in terms of "why don't more folks do this?"
Jake
Who says they don't. How old was the sorceror in the chapter text at the start of chapter 6? Something like 10,000 years old from memory. You can't tell me *he's* still on his original body... (even allowing for natural age stopping spells, and careful casting, in ten thousand years he would have picked up enough aging to screw him, surely.
Here's my take on it anyway:
Summoning 2 (Spirit 2 - to summon the soul out of the body)
Conquer 3 (Implant 3 - to put your own soul in the body)
Imprisonment 3 (Magic 3 - to "lock" your soul into the body and make it permanent).
Thus: Lets say spell of many/ritual:
T3 (a person)
R1 (touch them)
V0 (souls have no volume)
D0 (instant, made permanent through Imprisonment)
L 3 (3+1+1-2)
So CTN is 7, it takes 7 hours to cast, who cares about aging, and it costs three SP permanently because of Imprisonment/Magic 3. Pretty cheap, although the SP loss is nasty, but then again you have many many years in your new body to build up the SA's to rebuild your SP.
I quite like the idea of requiring the new body to be gifted actually. Also note that I would allow the mage to keep his mental attributes, but the physical ones would be determined by the new body, shuffling around his various pools etc. And it would be a gamble - I wouldn't tell the player what the physical stats were of the body, other than "he looks prtetty strong" or "he gets sick easily".
Note that the same spell could be made temporary by dropping the Imprisonment, and adding a duration effect, allowing you to control someone's body for a period of time. After the end of the effect, you would return to your own body and their soul would (presumably) find theirs again.
Just my 2c.
Brian.
On 6/12/2002 at 10:41pm, Ace wrote:
RE: How do I make a body jump spell?
BrianL wrote:Jake Norwood wrote: Speak up, ya'll...this is fascinating. We've been brewing up a way to handle this lately. I'm curious what kind of checks/balances would practically be put on the thing--not in terms of game mechanics, neccessarily, but in terms of "why don't more folks do this?"
Jake
Who says they don't. How old was the sorceror in the chapter text at the start of chapter 6? Something like 10,000 years old from memory. You can't tell me *he's* still on his original body... (even allowing for natural age stopping spells, and careful casting, in ten thousand years he would have picked up enough aging to screw him, surely.
Here's my take on it anyway:
Summoning 2 (Spirit 2 - to summon the soul out of the body)
Conquer 3 (Implant 3 - to put your own soul in the body)
Imprisonment 3 (Magic 3 - to "lock" your soul into the body and make it permanent).
Thus: Lets say spell of many/ritual:
T3 (a person)
R1 (touch them)
V0 (souls have no volume)
D0 (instant, made permanent through Imprisonment)
L 3 (3+1+1-2)
So CTN is 7, it takes 7 hours to cast, who cares about aging, and it costs three SP permanently because of Imprisonment/Magic 3. Pretty cheap, although the SP loss is nasty, but then again you have many many years in your new body to build up the SA's to rebuild your SP.
Note that the same spell could be made temporary by dropping the Imprisonment, and adding a duration effect, allowing you to control someone's body for a period of time. After the end of the effect, you would return to your own body and their soul would (presumably) find theirs again.
Just my 2c.
Brian.
Thats pretty good although couldn't that be a spell of 3?
You know body stealing is one of the least annoying things a Sorcerer could do in game, all it does is give them a new lease on life. Big Deal...
It beats the various "Slam a rock at lightspeed and kill a city" or "explode the king" tricks that are out there.
Shoot, a Sorcerer could body shift a friend if he liked.
Imagine a story of love involving A good Sorcerer trying to talk his dying wife into allowing him to steal her a new form.
He won't do it without permission out of love for her but she won't allow it out of faith.
On 6/12/2002 at 10:45pm, Brian Leybourne wrote:
RE: How do I make a body jump spell?
Ace wrote: Thats pretty go0d although couldn't that be a spell of 3?
Yep, no reason why not, except for flavour - I don't really like the idea that it only takes 70 minutes to cast a spell like this :-) Far cooler to imagine a lengthly ritual with the new body tied up in the middle of a ritual circle with candles and evil chanting etc.
Ace wrote:
You know body stealing is one of the least annoying things a Sorcerer could do in game, all it does is give them a new lease on life. Big Deal...
It beats the various "Slam a rock at lightspeed and kill a city" or "explode the king" tricks that are out there.
Very true.. hell, there's not a lot that a sorceror (even a newbie one) CAN'T do in this game. Seneschals beware...
Brian.
On 6/12/2002 at 10:51pm, Furious D wrote:
RE: How do I make a body jump spell?
Alternately, as far as balance, require that the caster succeed in the knockout test from aging in order for the spell to actually work (say if they lose consciousness during the transfer, their soul gets lost). Require an SA and SP sacrifice, and then give the target a chance to save with their willpower and any applicable SA. The first rule gives the target a better chance to save by forcing the caster to devote more dice to ward off the immediate (but not the long term) side-effects of aging.
And again, something nasty happens to the caster in the case of failure or successful save by the target
On 6/12/2002 at 11:07pm, Brian Leybourne wrote:
RE: How do I make a body jump spell?
Furious D wrote: Alternately, as far as balance, require that the caster succeed in the knockout test from aging in order for the spell to actually work (say if they lose consciousness during the transfer, their soul gets lost). Require an SA and SP sacrifice, and then give the target a chance to save with their willpower and any applicable SA. The first rule gives the target a better chance to save by forcing the caster to devote more dice to ward off the immediate (but not the long term) side-effects of aging.
And again, something nasty happens to the caster in the case of failure or successful save by the target
The problem with that is justification. Other than the fact that you don't want your players to be swapping bodies, what's the IN-GAME/IN-SYSTEM justification for having to spend SA's. I just showed you how it can be done without doing that. The WP check by the target is justifiable I guess, but I can just avoid that by making them quite happy to go through with the process (Control 3) or wipe their mind first so they can't resist (Repress 3) neither add any CTN or difficulty because I have already paid for Conquor/Implant 3.
What I'm saying is that you have to accept the magic system (or not) but as a whole - IMO you can't go around arbitrarily adding costs and extra difficulties here and there because you're not personally happy with the spell they came up with. That's unfair. If you don't like it, don't let your players be sorcerors.
Brian.
On 6/12/2002 at 11:21pm, Ace wrote:
RE: How do I make a body jump spell?
BrianL wrote:Furious D wrote: Alternately, as far as balance, require that the caster succeed in the knockout test from aging in order for the spell to actually work (say if they lose consciousness during the transfer, their soul gets lost). Require an SA and SP sacrifice, and then give the target a chance to save with their willpower and any applicable SA. The first rule gives the target a better chance to save by forcing the caster to devote more dice to ward off the immediate (but not the long term) side-effects of aging.
And again, something nasty happens to the caster in the case of failure or successful save by the target
The problem with that is justification. Other than the fact that you don't want your players to be swapping bodies, what's the IN-GAME/IN-SYSTEM justification for having to spend SA's. I just showed you how it can be done without doing that. The WP check by the target is justifiable I guess, but I can just avoid that by making them quite happy to go through with the process (Control 3) or wipe their mind first so they can't resist (Repress 3) neither add any CTN or difficulty because I have already paid for Conquor/Implant 3.
What I'm saying is that you have to accept the magic system (or not) but as a whole - IMO you can't go around arbitrarily adding costs and extra difficulties here and there because you're not personally happy with the spell they came up with. That's unfair. If you don't like it, don't let your players be sorcerors.
Brian.
Thank you for saying that. I couldn't have put it better.
On 6/12/2002 at 11:35pm, DaR wrote:
RE: How do I make a body jump spell?
Jake Norwood wrote: Speak up, ya'll...this is fascinating. We've been brewing up a way to handle this lately. I'm curious what kind of checks/balances would practically be put on the thing--not in terms of game mechanics, neccessarily, but in terms of "why don't more folks do this?"
I think the big one would probably be: what happens if the spell fails, or you manage to knock yourself out while casting?
I can't imagine the results of magic going awry when trying to rip out two souls, discard one, and put the other back in the wrong body would be pretty. At best you'd probably kill your target. A horrible slow lingering death or an unholy fusion of both souls are the worst cases I can think of, but I'm sure other people have a more gruesome imagination than I.
Risk of failure aside, I can see a wealth of possibilities on why it doesn't work, or doesn't work well enough to make it worthwhile:
• Magic only works for those who have the right "genetics" (or whatever it is that seperates the Gifted from the normals). That means you'd have to find a target to transfer into who had the Gift, which is not exactly trivial. Add on to it that they'll need to be young enough to make it worthwhile and unskilled enough that they can't stop you, and it may just not be something the average sorcerer can expect to pull off. Why bother extending your life, if you have to devote most of your extended time to finding the next target for your body-swapping rituals?
• Every person's body is different. All your brain chemicals have changed, all your muscle memories and reflexes are gone, and the basic body controls all "work differently". In the new body you might be as helpless as a newborn, having to spend years relearning the things you spent a lifetime taking for granted. What mage is going to want to take years relearning how to feed and clothe himself, to walk, etc? Or trust someone to take care of him until he masters the new body enough that he can use Sculpture to fix it to his liking?
• Moving bodies damages your connection to magic. The ritual might require using Imprison on the equivilent of a Master level spell to 'seal' your soul into the new body and thus costs three SP dice permanently. Do this enough times and you won't be able to master the magics necessary to do it again.
• On a similar note, your soul might have an innate attachment to your body, so such a spell wouldn't be Instantaneous/Permanent, but would have to be Constant or even Maintained. You could transfer yourself, but in a matter of weeks, or even days, you'll be snapped back to your real body. And what happens if it's dead? Or maybe you can keep recasting the same ritual, month after month, to keep your attachment to your new body. Of course, odds are, eventually you'll blow the casting spell anyhow, but even if you don't, repeatedly casting such spells is going to decrease the amount of time until you need to find another host again.
Now those are just some ideas for the technical reasons why it might not be feasible. There's also other possible factors, like social ones.
I could easily see an form of ritual like this as the sort of thing that incites witchhunts by normals, fearing having their souls ripped out for some faceless uber-sorcerer to extend his or her life. The mere hint that some person is using, or even learning, such magics would be enough to bring them a world of trouble. Perhaps even from fellow sorcerers, who fear that widespread usages of such magics will bring further unwanted attention to sorcerers in general.
At an organized level, none of the major religions is keen on magic, and magic that involves stealing the souls of others is going to be at the top of the list of no-nos. There might be religious orders devoted to finding those who practice such dark arts, either through direct investigation, or through simple intelligence gathering ('every 15 years, a member of one of these suspect bloodlines disappears without a trace under similar suspicious circumstances').
On a more personal level, how many sorcerers would actually be willing to perform such a ritual, even if they could? Not all sorcerers are completely power-hungry amoral types, and I'd even dare to say that the large majority probably are not. Swapping your soul into someone's body at the expense of their soul isn't the sort of act that goes down easy on most people's conscience.
-DaR
--
Dan Root
On 6/12/2002 at 11:51pm, Wolfen wrote:
RE: How do I make a body jump spell?
Okay, here's how I would do it..
Anything like this should not be possible to be done in a couple hours.. It just ain't right. So I'd add some steps onto it..
First off, the body must be prepared. The mind must be wiped, unless you want all of that body's memories co-residing with your own.. which would make you quite a bit different than you are. If you do not wipe their mind first, the personality of the result would be somewhere between you and them. Best to wipe them entirely.
Now, it can be argued that this can be done during the spell at no extra cost, and that would be true.. But there would be added risk. What if you fail to wipe their mind due to them succeeding on a WP roll? Then you've got to deal with all of those memories, experiences, feelings... You wouldn't be you, anymore. Best to do it beforehand.
Oh, a brief aside.. Control 3 could be used to make them happy to do it, so says Brian.. I'd never go for that in my game. No matter what artificial emotions are invoked, at the very core of a person, they will resist their soul being sucked from their body. They still get a WP roll to resist, assuming they've still got WP... which is why you wipe them first. If they resist, do it again, and again, until you succeed... It's only a few months of age, and you're not long for this body anyway.
So, once the mind has been wiped, then you begin the transferral spell. Vagaries used: Conquer (Implant) 3, Vision (gotta see the spirits to interact with 'em, boyos) 1-3 (doesn't really matter, if you've got it.. I dunno what level is needed to see spirits, though) Summoning (Spirits) 2, and Imprisonment (spirits, magic{wouldn't it suck to leave YOUR magic behind in the old body?}) 3.
Clean Slate
Spell of One
CTN = 7 (casting time: 7 seconds)
T) 3 R) 1 V) 0 D) 0 L) 3
Vagary: Conquer3
Effect: Repress3
Instantaneous(permanent)
The target gets a chance to resist the effects of this spell by rolling WP/CTN of the spell. If the successes on the WP roll equal or exceed the caster's successes, then the spell has failed it's effect.
Transferral
Spell of Many
CTN = 8 (casting time: 8 hours)
T) 3 R) 1 V) 0 D) 0 L) 4 (3+1+1+1-2)
Vagaries: Conquer3, Vision3, Summoning2, Imprisonment3
Effects: Implant3, Clairvoyance(?)3, Spirits2, Spirits2, Magic3
Instantaneous(permanent)
If the target was not wiped prior to the Transferral spell, then they get a WP roll to resist the effects of the spell. If they were wiped, then the spell cannot be resisted.
That's how I'd do it..
<m> God forbid my players ever find this forum...
On 6/12/2002 at 11:55pm, Furious D wrote:
RE: How do I make a body jump spell?
BrianL wrote:
The problem with that is justification. Other than the fact that you don't want your players to be swapping bodies, what's the IN-GAME/IN-SYSTEM justification for having to spend SA's. I just showed you how it can be done without doing that. The WP check by the target is justifiable I guess, but I can just avoid that by making them quite happy to go through with the process (Control 3) or wipe their mind first so they can't resist (Repress 3) neither add any CTN or difficulty because I have already paid for Conquor/Implant 3.
The WP check is not only justifiable, it's also required by the rules, already. See the section on resisting magic effects.
SA penalties are already in place for demon summoning and imprisonment. You don't think that flinging your very soul about is a comparable drain on one's character? (call it spiritual leakage, leaving behind some of your essence, or say it requires demonic intervention to be permanently sealed, whatever) It's not an entirely unfounded mechanic.
BrianL wrote:
What I'm saying is that you have to accept the magic system (or not) but as a whole - IMO you can't go around arbitrarily adding costs and extra difficulties here and there because you're not personally happy with the spell they came up with. That's unfair. If you don't like it, don't let your players be sorcerors.
That's the Seneschal's job. And please don't start insinuating because I want to put somewhat of a leash on potentially unbalancing game effects (and my players will only see me get so anal with these kind of "balance breaking" effects) that I "don't like" the magic system and thus shouldn't let my players be sorcerors. That's just insulting. Whether you would do it differently if you were seneschal is another matter, but in case you missed it, the rules specifically state that additional difficulty is at the seneschal's discretion. I'm just telling you what my discretion would be. Jake was asking for checks and balances, and I was throwing out examples. Truth be told, out of all the ideas I was throwing out, the only one I really think would be necessary is requiring the target to be Gifted and including death in case of spell failure. Not only does it seriously limit possible victims, but a Gifted target has a better chance of resisting (example spells often allow SP and/or Art in addition to WP in resistance checks)
On 6/13/2002 at 1:39am, Jaif wrote:
RE: How do I make a body jump spell?
I would suggest the following:
1) No two souls may inhabit the same body. Your imprison spell will not work: you must first remove the soul from the new body before you can imprison your spirit in there. That soulless body will be a vegetable and need constant attention that you probably can't provide. If you want, cast a sustaining spell of some kind on it.
2) Unless you bind that old soul somewhere, it's going to be plenty angry. Take disadvantage: haunted if you remove a soul from a body (no matter if you subsequently move into it, or not).
3) During a portion of the spell, your soul is in neither body. You must therefore use magical vision to continue the procedure.
4) Control is used to help you embed yourself correctly into the new body.
5) The months aged are split between both bodies in case of success (if you don't make it to the new body, then your old body takes the entire hit.)
6) Fumble = death. I would take a very hard line on this one if a PC used this spell, though I guess a spent luck point could turn a fumble into failure.
7) You get the attributes & gifts/flaws of the new body, skills & proficiencies of the old. "Gifted" goes with the soul.
8) While there is no resistance (you've already removed the soul from the new body and encountered that), you need to make an MA/CTN roll. Add your conquer vagary (by definition, 3) to the number of successes you received, and compare to the CTN of the spell. Every point less raises all your skills by 1 and lowers a single proficiency/vagary by 1. So, if you miss by 2 points, you add 2 to all skills, and subtract 2 points from any of your vagaries. A fumble on the MA roll is very nasty; hell, even failure is pretty bad.
9) Again with the hard line: no faith, drive, passion, or conscience can be used. No matter how the player spins it, this is ultimately a selfish act.
10) Optional: must use summon: magic to sustain either/both bodies while you're in transit. This will age the body (ies) automatically.
Summary of my major balancing stuff:
- disadvantage: haunted to account for the old spirit.
- MA/CTN roll (step 8) to avoid degredation of skills/proficiencies.
Last, I'll repeat and add: I'd take a very hard line with this spell. The player is trying to avoid the only attempt to balance sorcerers.
-Jeff
P.S. Regarding #9; I know that you can make scenarios where the drives *apply*, but I would state that selfishness is always the overwhelming drive in this case.
P.P.S. Aside - I would allow SAs when picking the body. If you hate your target, it's quite easy to kick his soul out of his body. :-)
On 6/13/2002 at 1:50am, Jaif wrote:
RE: How do I make a body jump spell?
Ack, just thought of two more things.
1) You may want to keep the MA, Wit, and WP of the old body around (the mind). Social probably as well, but I'd suggest using the Per of the new body.
2) You may want to do a reverse duration for additional recovery time. Basically, something like CTN - # of casting successes in minutes (1 minute minimum) of helplessness when you're in the new body.
On 6/13/2002 at 2:14am, Ace wrote:
RE: How do I make a body jump spell?
Wolfen wrote: Okay, here's how I would do it..
SNIPS NEAT CONTENT
<m> God forbid my players ever find this forum...
Thats how I am going to do it too. Great work!
On 6/13/2002 at 5:29am, Lyrax wrote:
RE: How do I make a body jump spell?
Don't forget: If the person you are switching with is Gifted, he can resist with his Art and any SP dice he devotes to this. And you can bet he will resist it with everything he's got. I know, Conquer 3 can be used, but that needs to be resisted as well.
On 6/13/2002 at 9:01am, Ben wrote:
what a mess
I've seen some very good points from just about every body (DaR and Jaif stand out to me) but so far every spell I've seen will at best leave the sorcerer a drooling vegetable upon sucsess. Your brain isn't attached to your soul. If you want all the knowledge and memories of your former body you'll have to Vision into your own brain to see how it's set up and then Vision/Scuplture your victim's brain after first doing a Conquer on it so nothing gets tangeled up or any small residual traces don't leak back in.
Also if you want to look like you're old self you'll have to Scuplture all the cells in the new body, preferabliy before you switch because I'd bet that would hurt like hell. This would also be neccesary for the sorcerer to use all his skills at peak proficency. If not, even with the mind alteration, the physical refelexs and evenn just mussle devlopment of the different body would greatly hinder perscition for quite sometime. However unless you tweak the DNA, all the cells in the body will be replicating the old DNA and pretty soon you'll end up in the old body which may also be a pretty unpleasant experience.
And then there's the question of weather or not sorcery is genetic or spiritual or both. My call is that it's spiritual (or perhaps both). If genetic or both, the body must be prepared in the way above if the wizard wants to keep his magic. Another option just occured to me. The possibility stands that it may be neither spiritual or genetic. It may just be a fluke. The magic may soley belong to the body of the caster, being imbued with some mystic particle or beimg born at the focal of some cosmic convergence or some other sillness. If this be the case, then that would necesitate the need for a "gifted" victim. Woe unto them. (HEY JAKE, can we get some sort of ruleing here. Knowing you but not the answer, you'll probablly say "at the seneschal's discretion", so I preemtivly asking, if that be the answer, for an 'offical' recomendation or preference for all of us to universally colaberate on if we feel so inclined.)
I'm fairly certain that I've forgot, left out or simply haven't thought of several more aspects, problems and nuances of this but would rather not make the endever to get more detailed until I've heard from Jake on it. (that's preasure you're feelin' BOY) But even without a details of the difficultlty on excecuting such a feat, I'd venture to say that the reason more sorcerers don't attempt such more often is that the obsene logisticts are enough to discurage all but the firmly resolved. That and a conscience or general lack of evilness. Anyway...
On 6/13/2002 at 9:11am, J B Bell wrote:
RE: How do I make a body jump spell?
I don't own tRoS, though I damned well intend to when it releases in August. (Know of any copies that made it to Canada, Jake?) But all the spell threads I've seen seem to presuppose something that is, to me, rather shocking.
Namely, an understanding of modern physics, even if gained by magical means. Honestly, I regard this as rather a flaw. I mean, in the same thread we're talking about souls--something science has pretty well no support for--and brain structure.
I don't think one can really muck about on this level and make any kind of sense without a relatively solid metaphysics, and I gather that tRoS is (sensibly, IMO) rather agnostic about what is "really real" on the magical level. Seems to me if you don't have this nailed down in the way e.g. Sorcerer needs to have demons & humanity nailed down (not necessarily in a super-detailed way, but you can't play properly without discussion of it), then spell design is going to be unnecessarily contentious.
Comments? Am I talking out my ass here? Does no one else anticipate problems with magical brain surgery and souls in the same notional space?
--JB
On 6/13/2002 at 11:57am, Ben wrote:
RE: How do I make a body jump spell?
J B Bell wrote: I don't own tRoS, though I damned well intend to when it releases in August.
Good, you'll love it.
(Know of any copies that made it to Canada, Jake?)
I do know a few got up that way, but have no specifics, Jake does though, Jake?
But all the spell threads I've seen seem to presuppose something that is, to me, rather shocking.
Namely, an understanding of modern physics, even if gained by magical means. Honestly, I regard this as rather a flaw. I mean, in the same thread we're talking about souls--something science has pretty well no support for--and brain structure.
I don't think one can really muck about on this level and make any kind of sense without a relatively solid metaphysics, and I gather that tRoS is (sensibly, IMO) rather agnostic about what is "really real" on the magical level. Seems to me if you don't have this nailed down in the way e.g. Sorcerer needs to have demons & humanity nailed down (not necessarily in a super-detailed way, but you can't play properly without discussion of it), then spell design is going to be unnecessarily contentious.
Wow, thats some inquiry, and I must say one that didn't see coming.
Your assumtion on TRoS's stance on what is "really real" is pretty right on(as far as I know) and after reviewing things your concern is completely justified. Since you don't have the book, I'll try to explane things with as little game mechanics as possible. Before I start, you should note that in TRoS, 'reality is used to mitagate the application of magic, though not its effect'. Partially for the nifftyness of it and partially to gain a different feel from the one you get from those 'dungeon' games. Anyway, here I go...
The use of magic grants a sorcerer the ability to alter his perception to 'see' what is beyond his normal vision. This power extends from looking 'inward' into the micro to loking outward at the macro(such as viewing far away). Unto this, the sorcerer's sight does not actually change, rather it is just his perception. So a sorcerer veiw far away may receive the information as flashing of images(like remote veiwing) or experience it as if he's there watching or occur simply as a knowing of said happens. A sorcerer viewing things in the micro such as DNA may find himself in a long tubular room looking at a seris of of large discs standing in a row spanning down the hallway; each one partially clear with an embedded picture(as though a diagram or blue print and cords running from different parts of the picture to parts of the other pictures: or may see it as a house were the materials, floorplan, contents of the room, etc... all allude to corrisponeding elements or aspects of the person or creature or whatever in question. It should not be assumed that a sorcerers understanding of such things will be the same as our modern understanding, but as sorcerers can perceive such things, even though it may be greatly contribed, it is only logical that they could reach some kind of understanding from the interpritation of the perceived information. So even though sorcerers have a kind of 'knowledge' of such things, each sorcerers info may be different from another and disscussing such things would get very hairy and left field if we didn't use the modern speak to jive about it.
It occurs to me though, just from responding to this post, that not everyone has the same take on the subject as me. eh... if you didn't but now do, keep quite about it. :) If you don't share it, I'll appreciate any effort on your part not to make me look like too big an ass when posting ;)
Comments? Am I talking out my ass here?
not nearly as much as me :p - no, it was all good stuff.
Does no one else anticipate problems with magical brain surgery and souls in the same notional space?
--JB
Of course we anticipate problems, thats why we're discussing it! :D
On 6/13/2002 at 12:31pm, Mokkurkalfe wrote:
RE: How do I make a body jump spell?
I was about to say the same thing as J B Bell. A sorcerer probably doesn't think so much about science as we do, and more importantly, not as much as his player do.
BTW, a seneshal will be in real trouble if a player knows more about micro physics and stuff than he.
Anyway, assuming that the sorcerer knows about this stuff, there are other ways to live longer, apart from moving your soul to another body.
1) Imprison your soul in your own body. The body will not die unless you banish the soul. Although when the body "dies" out of age, or get its head chopped of, the soul wants to escape to the afterlife. But it can't. It's like a bumblebee trying to get out of a glass turned upside-down. The result is a rotting body that still lives, capable of immense sorcery and with a tortured soul, probably making it mad(both mad as in angry as well as in crazy). In other words, a lich!
Of course, the avarage sorcerer doesn't know that this is the result.
2) Things that move at the speed of light don't age. Using Vision and Movement the sorcerer makes his molecules move back and forth between the molecules of the world around him at the speed of light. Of course they just move an extremely small distance, then going the other way, every atom in perfect harmony.
Of course, this assumes that the sorcerer know about these things.
P.S: This one probably has to be made constant.
On 6/13/2002 at 1:14pm, Jaif wrote:
RE: How do I make a body jump spell?
2) Things that move at the speed of light don't age. Using Vision and Movement the sorcerer makes his molecules move back and forth between the molecules of the world around him at the speed of light. Of course they just move an extremely small distance, then going the other way, every atom in perfect harmony.
Of course, this assumes that the sorcerer know about these things.
It's been a very long time since my relativity 101 (<g>), but I don't believe this is quite the right way to look at it.
1) Mass can't be accelerated to the speed of light. You can get close, closer, and really really damn closer and closer, but you can never get there.
2) It's all relative. A person moving at near-light speed sees the world as changing remarkably fast. The world sees him as changing not at all. It's not that you don't age, it's that in the time you age 5 years, the world ages 15. You'll be unable to interact with the world around you. It's like you're in stasis.
3) "Make his molecules..." We're talking about some astronomically high number of parts here. If there are billions of cells in the body, and each is composed of millions/billions/trillions or even higher order numbers of molecules, there's just too much to control and coordinate.
4) Pretend you can coordinate 1*10^20 or more things at a time (that's a lot of zeros), you kill yourself unless they all move the same place at the same time. You can't have molecule A of the cell wall move left, while the rest of the cell wall moves right. What this means is that you're just constantly moving the body around, not the individual molecules.
Hope this helps, but it's not the effect you're looking for.
-Jeff
On 6/13/2002 at 1:25pm, Wolfen wrote:
RE: How do I make a body jump spell?
Mokkurkalfe,
The first suggestion, (the lich one) I love. I would, and just might, use it.
The second, (the one with the molecules and the speed of light) Hells no would I ever allow that to happen in my games. Ever.
I apply GAMEMASTER HACK! NO, JUST NO! (This is a reference to jokes about players and GMs throwing Rock-Paper-Scissors to determine a point, at which point the GM would throw out the "Gamemaster Hack", shown by slapping the palm of the hand with the edge of the other hand, which beat rock, paper and scissors.)
Cheating death isn't something that should be allowed. Stealing another body isn't cheating death... It still gets it's "pound of flesh" in the form of the displaced soul whose body you stole. Keeping your body from aging..
No, just no.
On 6/13/2002 at 1:47pm, Mokkurkalfe wrote:
RE: How do I make a body jump spell?
Jaif wrote:2) Things that move at the speed of light don't age. Using Vision and Movement the sorcerer makes his molecules move back and forth between the molecules of the world around him at the speed of light. Of course they just move an extremely small distance, then going the other way, every atom in perfect harmony.
Of course, this assumes that the sorcerer know about these things.
It's been a very long time since my relativity 101 (<g>), but I don't believe this is quite the right way to look at it.
1) Mass can't be accelerated to the speed of light. You can get close, closer, and really really damn closer and closer, but you can never get there.
2) It's all relative. A person moving at near-light speed sees the world as changing remarkably fast. The world sees him as changing not at all. It's not that you don't age, it's that in the time you age 5 years, the world ages 15. You'll be unable to interact with the world around you. It's like you're in stasis.
3) "Make his molecules..." We're talking about some astronomically high number of parts here. If there are billions of cells in the body, and each is composed of millions/billions/trillions or even higher order numbers of molecules, there's just too much to control and coordinate.
4) Pretend you can coordinate 1*10^20 or more things at a time (that's a lot of zeros), you kill yourself unless they all move the same place at the same time. You can't have molecule A of the cell wall move left, while the rest of the cell wall moves right. What this means is that you're just constantly moving the body around, not the individual molecules.
Hope this helps, but it's not the effect you're looking for.
-Jeff
1) I think 99,99% of the speed of light will do just fine.
3 & 4) If you can FOLD your body, disintegrate it and build new bodyparts, then I think you can make them all move the exact same pattern(i.e. they stand still relatively to eachother).
2) Ack! You got me on that one.
I admit it probably wouldn't work and it was more of an afterthought from my side. I liked the other one better anyhow.
Oy!!! I thought up a new way! Using scuplture, vision and perhaps something else, ye might mix up yer genes enough to make you immortal. The body has an "improgrammed" life cycle. Couldn't you just take away the part that makes you old? Correct me if I´m wrong somewhere here.
On 6/13/2002 at 2:13pm, Wolfen wrote:
RE: How do I make a body jump spell?
I really, really think it's a mistake to attempt to apply more than just the most basic of physics to a fantasy setting.. Sure it allows for some really cool stuff.. But it loses the feel of the fantasy setting. I mean, who can really imagine the sorcerers out of Conan novels studying how to split atoms, or rearange molecules? Sure, I suppose it's possible that they could.. But it's damnably boring to me.
Ripping someones soul from their body and switching it with the soul of a serpent, so that the man tries to slither, and the serpent tries to stand so it can walk away.. That's Conan style fantasy. Demons trapped in a cave protecting a pirate's horde.. Now that gets the blood flowing. Deep dungeons (no, REAL dungeons) filled with all sorts of horrors, and reminiscent of Poe's "The Pit and the Pendulum"... now THAT's interesting.
(Note, all three examples taken from "Conan the Usurper", written by Robert Howard and edited by L. Sprague DeCamp.. So many awesome ideas for TRoS came out of that book.)
I suppose that if you really want to mix it up with physics and Sorcery, that's your choice, and it's your right to talk about it on these boards. I, however... Do not.
On 6/13/2002 at 2:21pm, Bob Richter wrote:
RE: How do I make a body jump spell?
Wolfen wrote: I really, really think it's a mistake to attempt to apply more than just the most basic of physics to a fantasy setting.. Sure it allows for some really cool stuff.. But it loses the feel of the fantasy setting. I mean, who can really imagine the sorcerers out of Conan novels studying how to split atoms, or rearange molecules? Sure, I suppose it's possible that they could.. But it's damnably boring to me.
Ripping someones soul from their body and switching it with the soul of a serpent, so that the man tries to slither, and the serpent tries to stand so it can walk away.. That's Conan style fantasy. Demons trapped in a cave protecting a pirate's horde.. Now that gets the blood flowing. Deep dungeons (no, REAL dungeons) filled with all sorts of horrors, and reminiscent of Poe's "The Pit and the Pendulum"... now THAT's interesting.
(Note, all three examples taken from "Conan the Usurper", written by Robert Howard and edited by L. Sprague DeCamp.. So many awesome ideas for TRoS came out of that book.)
I suppose that if you really want to mix it up with physics and Sorcery, that's your choice, and it's your right to talk about it on these boards. I, however... Do not.
The problem, of course, being that our Sorcery has a single VERY potent physical vagary -- Movement 3.
It can move objects up to the speed of light instantaneously. That has a potential to be incredibly destructive, with the result that potentially more interesting ways to be destructive may get tossed aside. Quite frankly, without that Master Movement vagary, most discussions of advanced physics would probably go away.
A note on the FOLD spell -- am I the only one who's noticed that the Sorceror simpy wouldn't arrive?
On 6/13/2002 at 2:22pm, Ben wrote:
well... & a bit off topic
Mokkurkalfe wrote: The body has an "improgrammed" life cycle. Couldn't you just take away the part that makes you old? Correct me if I´m wrong somewhere here.
Ah, you're refering to all that "junk" DNA.
Well, you may or maynot be right, it certainly is one of the more popular theories. I sited another theory in a post on the "jedi power battles or whatever thread" After mapping all the genes you think they'd have at least bothered to confirm or deny a few of these theories. oh well
But if your theory is right, it should prove pretty easy to become ageless, after a character actually figures it out. Of course, not haveing it may prove detrimental to living or have dire consequeses when casting.
Bob Richter wrote: . Quite frankly, without that Master Movement vagary, most discussions of advanced physics would probably go away.
I not so sure I agree. Most talk of physics comes from the ablity to view atomic particels with mastery of Vision. Although m-Movement does pose a few theoretical questions.
On 6/13/2002 at 4:31pm, Jake Norwood wrote:
RE: How do I make a body jump spell?
[quote = Ben]HEY JAKE, can we get some sort of ruleing here. Knowing you but not the answer, you'll probablly say "at the seneschal's discretion", so I preemtivly asking, if that be the answer, for an 'offical' recomendation or preference for all of us to universally colaberate on if we feel so inclined.)
Um, I think the man you need to talk to is Rick. I just have opinions and interpretations.
Hey Rick!
Jake
On 6/13/2002 at 4:52pm, Jaif wrote:
RE: How do I make a body jump spell?
I really, really think it's a mistake to attempt to apply more than just the most basic of physics to a fantasy setting..
I actually agree. I wouldn't let a sorcerer apply advanced physics knowledge in my campaigns. We're talking about a discipline that's built slowly over generations of work by hundreds or thousands of people. It's the whole "standing on the shoulders of giants" thing.
Said another way, just because people have the power to see anything doesn't mean they'll understand what they see, nor how it all runs together.
Oh, my whole U235 thing was just a joke. I'm surprised how much "leg" its had. :-)
-Jeff
P.S. There's an exception to all rules. Assume the nine are in your campaign, and are still walking around after a bazillion years. They have very keen minds, and have watched how things work for generations. It would be interesting for them to generate (say) electrical effects that no other sorcerer can conceive of. Even a sorcerer who observes the spell and its effects can't figure it out, because they lack the knowledge to interpret what's happening correctly.
P.P.S. Which would make it very funny to watch one of the nine polarize the spear heads of a number of soldiers in formation. That aughta be good for grins and giggles. :-)
On 6/14/2002 at 6:38am, Ben wrote:
well, I'll be...
Jake Norwood wrote: Um, I think the man you need to talk to is Rick. I just have opinions and interpretations.
Hey Rick!
I can't beleive you wormed your way out of that! err...
Jaif wrote: I actually agree. I wouldn't let a sorcerer apply advanced physics knowledge in my campaigns. We're talking about a discipline that's built slowly over generations of work by hundreds or thousands of people. It's the whole "standing on the shoulders of giants" thing.
Said another way, just because people have the power to see anything doesn't mean they'll understand what they see, nor how it all runs together.
I actually hadn't considered how long it would take someone to work out all that from scratch. I suppose unless one was advanced in years and had dedicated almost his whole life to one area of study or someone had access to a large wealth of knowlege(very unlikly on Wyerth) they really wouldn't have much of a clue about such stuff just from looking at it. Hmh, I stand corrected.
your thought on the nine is funny too.
On 6/19/2002 at 7:48am, Rick wrote:
Finally!
Man you all have no idea how satisfying it is to see all of these discussions going on. That's what I'd imagine happens at wizard colleges. You all have had great insights into the possibilities and downfalls of magic use. To be honest, all level 3 vagaries were designed to be insane. As pressure on a hero, I really liked the thought of a vengeful opponent having the capability to destroy the earth. Sure, you could blow it up with movement, or spread a plague with growth, use sculpture to disintegrate the ozone layer or whatever. But like Jake said when I was writing it, "I could jack that in so many ways...." And you guys are having some bitchin' thoughts.
I can offer a piece of opinion to those wishing for a game with more of a Conan style feel though: Simply limit the maximum vagary level to 2. That eliminates most concerns and is still enjoyable to play.
I'd personally agree with the necessity of the related science to any given action concerning a spell. But to do so, you as the player are going to have to learn about whatever it is that you want to do, and in doing so you gain ACTUAL knowledge, which can then be debated as it is here. If I were going to disintegrate myself, I would damn well want to make sure I'd be reintegrated before I tried it, so I'd find or try to find someone who knew about it and ask em some questions. That principal meshes very nicely with swordfighting and philosophy IMO. Souls and science exist in our world today, at the focus of even more debates. Stealing bodies is cool, planning on making yourself immortal, dandy. I guess I have to ask would YOU do if you were able to wield magic? It’s kind of like being a grown up in a way. On the Seneschal side, as spells can be inverted you have the ultimate caveat to any confounded skullduggery if necessary. (Hey, even bad guys like living). Besides, can you imagine botching a nuke? Yuk.
Hail,
Rick
On 6/19/2002 at 6:06pm, Jake Norwood wrote:
RE: How do I make a body jump spell?
Hey Rick, nice to see you in here.
Jake