hi I'm writing a sci fi rpg called operator which you may have read about above and I made a joke at one point and it occurs to me that it might be offensive.  All though I am trying to write an edgy rpg it worries me that some people may not have a sense of humor...what do you think about this exerpt?

Race and Age can be altered at will and have become fashion statements.  We’ve all heard the term wigger from the days when white people used to pretend to be black.  Well now through the miracles of gene therapy they can actually become black!

I'd say it brings some interesting philosophical questions in there. One of the issues with racism is that "race" is an inalterable characteristic. It completely changes the situation if it isn't constant.

My take is leave it and not worry about people being offended. It has too many interesting implications and options for discussion to accomodate the PC crowd.

cool thanks.

This is not racist at all. What you're talking about is a technology that was developed in the future. You're not giving an opinion about it. For instance, if you were to say, "in the future the government of Planet Alpha Centauri has decided to kill all the black people", it doesn't make you racist. It makes the guys in Alpha Centauri racist, but you're not saying you agree with them.
As for the joke about people becoming black - this is really as innocent as it gets. People who get offended by that are probably racists themselves, but don't want to show it and try very hard to find racist comments everywhere they can. :)

well actually I was talking about the joke rather than the technology but still thanks for your support, I'm breathing a sigh of relief.

Hi,

If you're concerned about the content of your game in terms of racism, probably the best thing to do is go ask around in communities that deal specifically with anti-racism.  There's also plenty of books on the topic as well.  The problem a lot of people have is that whether something is or isn't racist has to be considered in it's context- not just by itself.

That aside, if you want to include possible setting considerations about what happens when people can change their appearance at will, you'll especially want to look into internalized racism, the white beauty standard, etc. as worthwhile research topics.

Chris

I think it's an interesting premise, but "wigger" is a weak example. It needs more context and maybe contrast. There are so many others you could use, depending on whether it's fashionable to look like the dominant "race" or if there is a dominant "race" in the first place. There's a difference in intention between a white person adopting what he perceives as the mannerisms of a black person (which aren't genetic but cultural) and a black person straightening her hair or bleaching her skin because she believes that white features are more attractive than her own. Then one begs the question why do people change their features on a genetic level, especially given that "race" isn't genetic? Race is a social construction, and has no genetic basis. In the world of your rpg, have they been found genetic proof that race exists? Now that's pretty intruiging and edgy.

Julia

Parthenia wrote: Then one begs the question why do people change their features on a genetic level, especially given that "race" isn't genetic? Race is a social construction, and has no genetic basis. In the world of your rpg, have they been found genetic proof that race exists? Now that's pretty intruiging and edgy.

Best not to use the term wigger in game, because it actually pisses quite a few people off including black people. I would say though that the idea of changing your race is not racist, and that it reminds me of Elf and Ork posers in Shadowrun where people have plastic surgery to look like Elves because it's fashionable.

What's another example that gets the point across as succinctly as wigger though?

Well if you're going for succinct sure. If you're going for maturity or sensitivity, well thats another question. Like I said, drawing a correlation with people wanting to be a member of another race and it currently being possible is good cyberpunk theme, but I think the wigger comment might be a little subpar as far as maturity and not really accurate either.

migo wrote:
What's another example that gets the point across as succinctly as wigger though?

"a black person straightening her hair or bleaching her skin because she believes that white features are more attractive than her own."

That makes me sad just thinking about it.

Regarding race and genetics: there is more variability within a "race" than between "races". That said, the traits that people visually cue to "race" would be genetic; moreover the traits that people mentally assign to race would be genetic. Just think: what if every pale teenager on earth could look like he IMAGINES his rapper hero to look??? The mind boggles.

Casual and simple genetic alteration would be scary. Remember back, if you read your history, how it used to be fashionable to be "consumptive" ie, to look like you'd had tuberculosis? How badly would people **** themselves up to be pretty? Consider cultures where necks are hyperextended, feet were broken, and so on.... now imagine giving humans the keys to their genetic cage as far as appearances are concerned. What if  highly patriarchal society could engineer women with instinctive bonding or inbuilt emotional dependency like some birds and mammals have?

Ah, sorry, I'm now totally OT

contracycle wrote:

migo wrote:
What's another example that gets the point across as succinctly as wigger though?

What IS the point?  As far as I am concerned, to call someone a wigger is to call them a nigger.  It is an extremely racist sentiment, usually found among "whiny whites" who treat all attempts to address racism as some sort of conspiracy.

Again, as has been asked above, what precisely is the point here?  To discuss melanin frequency in the skin?  Thats been done regularly, since at least William Gibsons sculpted tans.  Or is to project a racist sentiment from the present into the future?

Definitely not offensive... for me.

One thing to remember about offensive messages is that it depends on who delivers it and how, not just the contents. Yours didn't feel like it but then, we don't have the whole book. It would be offensive if you were repeating this kind of joke again and again (in that case twice would be too much),

Moreover you're writing an RPG setting which is a piece of fiction, so you're fully entitled to the right of distanciation. So as long as you keep a hint that you're an author who's creating an universe, fictional characters can express opininion and messages that you do not necessarily agree. So you could deliver an even more offensive and get less reaction just because the context of the book and because the reader knows it is a fiction.

What definition of racist are we working with?

A wigger is a white person who wants to behave like the type of black person who freely refers to himself as a nigger (nigga', whatever).

Nigger has lost its value as an extremely negative term due to so many blacks calling each other niggers.

Everyone knows what a wigger is. The example shows taking being a wigger one step further.

Hello,

Gareth, ease off the jets, please. If you want to address the points, don't go nose-to-nose with migo, but rather spell out your response for Limejello; he can decide for himself. I want to stress that I am not shutting down your actual points. For what it's worth, I think they're potent.

Limejello, here's something else to think about. The ultimate authority and conscience for this game lies with its author. It's impossible to avoid offending anyone, not if one's topic is relevant to anything important. [You would not believe what people have posted about my game Trollbabe ... I mean, really, crazy talk.] So there's a boundary, but no one knows what it is except for yourself. I think a lot of the posting on this thread is really well-directed to helping you find it, and I look forward to seeing you arrive there.

As a possibly related side question: do you have a working title for the game?

Best, Ron

Limejello wrote:
hi I'm writing a sci fi rpg called Operator which you may have read about above and I made a joke at one point and it occurs to me that it might be offensive.  All though I am trying to write an edgy rpg it worries me that some people may not have a sense of humor.

Race and Age can be altered at will and have become fashion statements.  We’ve all heard the term wigger from the days when white people used to pretend to be black.  Well now through the miracles of gene therapy they can actually become black!

Oops, I missed the working title ... sorry about that.

Best, Ron

Well I actually this was just in a side bar about fasion...I did want to have a lot of jokes in my book (in fact I plan to follow very example with a joke my attribute check is covered bellow) Though I will say I intended this to be one of those jokes that's funny cause it's in appropriate.  Will farrell once said that innapropriate behavior makes him laugh.  I kind of tend to agree.  Though meg made a very interesting point: would biometrics scanners have a hard time reading a change in race.

Rob: I think there was something fishy about those Yakuza.  I want to check above the roof and under carriage of the car while I’m driving to see if they planted a bomb or something.
John: Okay I’m going to make a perception check in secret so you don’t know whether you succeed or fail.  :John decides Rob needs a 13 to fin the bomb strapped underneath the car.  He rolls a die and adds double his perception attribute (3+3+d12).  The die reads 8 which is added to 6 for a a total 14: Okay!  No mistake here there’s a huge fagot of TNT taped underneath your car set to go off any second.
Rob: Alright!  I speed up and hit a ramp causing my car to spiral gracefully through the air where it strikes a crane just as its belly is exposed ripping the bomb away from my car.  I then land on all four wheels with PERFECT form.
John: Okay! :he picks up the die and throws it at Rob hitting him square between the eyes:
Ron: OW!  What the hell was that for?
John: Stupidity…

Yea, I'm not trying to get all up into arms, but you asked if it would be offensive to some people and it would be (obviously, as it already has been). It's up to you to proceed from that. Honestly, the term wigger is pretty inaccurate and I agree that it's usually used by white people who don't really have any connection with african american subulture. But to "act black" in todays society is to say essentially that a white person is taking part in and is interested in the subculture of hip hop. But hip hop has included whites since it's very beginnings, and damn near every hip hop artist who has offered any meaningful ideas on the subject says that hip hop is for everyone. Wigger is usually used by people with no connection to hip hop to somehow chide something they don't understand. Consider that in many places in Africa, city dwellers have begun to adopt the style of American hip hop artists. They are imitating as much as any suburban white kid, so by extension is it ok to call those Africans something derogatory? That is the problem with acting as though a subculture somehow belongs to a specific ethnicity. Hell, go back far enough and Elvis was a "wigger" and by extension all of us who enjoy rock and roll are just wiggers. Subculture doesn't belong to any race of people.

That said, I like the idea, just not the joke, and not because I'm offended but just because I don't really feel it's particularly witty.

The idea itself (which I approve of) also reminds me of William Gibson's book Neuromancer in which plastic surgery is so common that when the main character encounters someone who is genuinely ugly, they find them intensely interesting looking because beauty is so cheap and common that it's become boring and standard.

I guess it all comes down to the fact that there really is a difference between Doug Stanhope or Lenny Bruce and a racist or sexist joke told over a beer.

who wants to behave like the type of black person who freely refers to himself as a nigger (nigga', whatever). Nigger has lost its value as an extremely negative term due to so many blacks calling each other niggers.

contracycle wrote:

What definition of racist are we working with?

The usually one, the taking of race into account in situations where it is otherwise irrelevant.

A wigger is a white person who wants to behave like the type of black person who freely refers to himself as a nigger (nigga', whatever).

Nigger has lost its value as an extremely negative term due to so many blacks calling each other niggers.

Everyone knows what a wigger is. The example shows taking being a wigger one step further.

Limejello wrote:
hi I'm writing a sci fi rpg called operator which you may have read about above and I made a joke at one point and it occurs to me that it might be offensive.  All though I am trying to write an edgy rpg it worries me that some people may not have a sense of humor...what do you think about this exerpt?

Race and Age can be altered at will and have become fashion statements.  We’ve all heard the term wigger from the days when white people used to pretend to be black.  Well now through the miracles of gene therapy they can actually become black!

Hello,

I'm moderating now.

Migo, do not respond to provocative posting here. I moderated Gareth's post to you - that means you are to back off and not escalate. That exchange is over - you do not get the right to the last word or anything like that.

The discussion also seems to have tipped over into a typical internet set of opinions about racism and wiggers. There are hundreds, if not thousands of venues for anyone to hold forth about such things. Go to one of them for that purpose. Do not use the Forge for it.

This thread is about a person's idea for his game. That's what we discuss here. Relevant aspects of racism or whatever can be factored in, but they are not, themselves, at issue at this site.

This thread may only continue if the next post is from Limejello. No one else is to post until then.

Best, Ron