Topic: Drawing new weapons in combat...?
Started by: Brian Leybourne
Started on: 6/14/2002
Board: The Riddle of Steel
On 6/14/2002 at 3:13am, Brian Leybourne wrote:
Drawing new weapons in combat...?
Hey Jake,
Are there formalised rules for drawing a new weapon during a combat? Like if my sword snaps, I'm disarmed, the dagger user gets into range, etc and I want to whip out my trusty dagger rather than face range penalties, how long does it take me?
I imagine that whipping a weapon out of a sheath would be pretty quick, but versus a swing of a weapon? That's iffy.
If there are not already rules for it, I propose the following:
To draw a new weapon, a combatant must spend one entire exchange doing it (thats .5 to 1 second). During that exchange, he can block (if he has a shield) or use an evasion, but cannot attack, counter, parry etc (anything that requires a weapon). He still gets whatever CP he would have had thanks to his old weapon. Actually getting the new weapon out requires a terrain roll, so he has to devote some of his block/evasion dice to it.
Suggested difficulties:
dagger in sheath: 4
sword in sheath: 5-6 (short/long)
weapon hanging from belt: 6
dagger in boot: 7
weapon across back: 8
weapon in backpack - forget it.
If this was done in the second exchange, the round ends as usual and his new CP are determined by the possibly different weapon proficiency. If it was the first exchange, the second exchange takes place using his old CP (what's left anyway) but he can still only block or evade, not attack. The Seneschal may allow a parry or counter with an additional activation cost of 2 dice.
What do you all think? Or are there already rules and I'm a twat for typing all this up? (I certainly never saw them).
Brian.
On 6/14/2002 at 3:54am, Jake Norwood wrote:
RE: Drawing new weapons in combat...?
There aren't rules for it currently, but what you suggested is almost exactly like the way that I handle it in my home games, except that I also have a maneuver called "iai," inspired by the japanese school, that I've implemented in a few cases. It, too, works about the same, except that the draw is considered "instant."
Jake
On 6/14/2002 at 7:19am, Wolfen wrote:
RE: Drawing new weapons in combat...?
Iai? Is this a Japanese word, or an acronym for "in an instant" or something similar?
And... how does it work? Which Proficiencies have access to it?
On 6/14/2002 at 10:20am, Mokkurkalfe wrote:
RE: Drawing new weapons in combat...?
Why not do it like you do the preparation for using a missile weapon? It's exactly the same thing.
Draw sword from hip: 1 round
Release mace from belt: 2 rounds
drop weapon: 0 round
drop encumbering stuff*: 2 rounds
....and so on.
*=backpack, cloak and similar stuff
On 6/14/2002 at 2:37pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Drawing new weapons in combat...?
Wolfen wrote: Iai? Is this a Japanese word, or an acronym for "in an instant" or something similar?
And... how does it work? Which Proficiencies have access to it?
IIRC, its a Japanese word that refers to the Samurai style of attacking directly out of the scabbard, a maneuver made famous by Toshiro Mifune in the movie Yojimbo by Akira Kurasawa. Having just arrived in town and wanting to make his prowess as a Ronin known, Mifune's character strides amongst the members of a the gang who encircle him threateningly. In a flash his blade is out of the scabbard, and he's evicerated two men and left another without an arm, the sword is back in the scabbard, and then he's walking away calmly leaving them to die in the dust.
So cool that it was redone twice, once as "A Fistful of Dollars" with Eastwood as the Mifune character, and "Last Man Standing" with Bruce Willis.
Essentially, a Samurai with his hand on his katana is simply in a stance with his sword held with a reverse grip and backhand which is a fairly standard position to attack from, anyway, so the scabbard isn't much in the way. Still, it probably takes some practice to get exactly right.
In any case, I'm not aware of any similar maneuver in western arts, but it's not at all necessary, really. The reason the Samurai need it is because they are bound not to draw their weapon unless they are going to draw blood with it (at least in some periods). The Iai makes it so that they can remain undrawn, but not unready. A western knight would just draw and be ready, the honorable thing being to tell the enemy to be on his guard and also allowing him to draw. To that extent I think that western scabbards were never really developed to be used in this way (although again, IIRC, I remember something about pivoting scabbards later).
The usefullness of the Iai in combat is probably much less, as the move depends on being ready after all, just in a different way. It's a quickdraw maneuver, muh like a western shoot out (hence the conversion of he Japanese film to the shootout genres). In other words the amount of time to ready will probably be similar whether you use Iai in combat or not.
Legend has it that Samurai sword masters, being proponents of counterstriking would often approach each other and circle never drawing, knowing that the one who drew first would surely lose to the counterstrike of the other. It's said that some encounters would end in stalemate because of this. Possibly apocryphal, but it gives you an idea of the extents that such maneuvers can be taken; and that no matter how fast your draw, there is still always a quicker counter.
Mike
Edited to say: Just remembered Iaido is the modern art of plaing with such maneuvers, as compared to the original art of Iajutsu (SP?) Similar to the differences between Judo and Jujitsu, as regards sword drawing techniques.
On 6/14/2002 at 4:41pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Drawing new weapons in combat...?
Hey,
My solution is that the arrow and thrown-dagger rules already provide reasonable solutions in terms of CP cost.
(Side note: In play, that CP cost did raise howls of outrage from my players, who are used to games which permit daggers to be thrown - as far as I can tell - instantaneously ... I wasn't sympathetic.)
Best,
Ron
On 6/14/2002 at 4:43pm, Jake Norwood wrote:
RE: Drawing new weapons in combat...?
Ron Edwards wrote: Hey,
My solution is that the arrow and thrown-dagger rules already provide reasonable solutions in terms of CP cost.
(Side note: In play, that CP cost did raise howls of outrage from my players, who are used to games which permit daggers to be thrown - as far as I can tell - instantaneously ... I wasn't sympathetic.)
Best,
Ron
Heh heh, sucks, doesn't it... ;-)
On 6/14/2002 at 11:30pm, Jaif wrote:
RE: Drawing new weapons in combat...?
In any case, I'm not aware of any similar maneuver in western arts,..
Them's fightin werds, boy.
On the count of 3, draw...
3!
-Jeff
On 6/15/2002 at 3:25am, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Drawing new weapons in combat...?
Jaif wrote:In any case, I'm not aware of any similar maneuver in western arts,..
Them's fightin werds, boy.
On the count of 3, draw...
3!
-Jeff
Um, yes, I stand corrected, that should have been Western Sword technique. Though now I'm sure that some ARMA grognard will be along to tell me that the Florentine school included exactly such a move.
Given that Wyerth is fictional, I think that it's probably OK if a GM wants to include some sort of Iai sort of skill in such a game for certain cultures defined as having scabbards and whatever else is neccessary to perform such a maneuver. Which would be cool.
Ands while were at it one probably could include such an Iajutsu skill for in combat use (as opposed to simple quickdrawing) which would result in a reduction of necessary drawing times. Somebody want to propose the appropriate rules?
Mike
On 6/15/2002 at 3:48am, Paganini wrote:
RE: Drawing new weapons in combat...?
Ron Edwards wrote:
(Side note: In play, that CP cost did raise howls of outrage from my players, who are used to games which permit daggers to be thrown - as far as I can tell - instantaneously ... I wasn't sympathetic.)
Hey Ron, as a knife thrower, I can tell you that the pros can throw a dagger from a belt or sleeve sheath in a tiny tiny fraction of an instant. You're watching them... all of a sudden there's this blurr and there's a knife sticking out of the target.
I can throw fairly quickly myself from an unreadied position (meaning that I have my five big knives stacked loosly in my left hand). It's not quite as hard as it is to throw from the sheath, but it might still give you an idea of how fast throwing a knife really is.
The thing about knife throwing is that it's incredibly hard to stick a knife in anything resembling a combat situation. Only the really great masters can do it consistantly, and even they only do it as a last resort. The problem is that for a knife to stick it has to spin the right number of times. Controling spin is really tricky if you can't just pace off the distance to your target. You have to adjust your grip, release, compensate for target motion, and all kinds of things.
So, I'd say let your players throw knives as fast as they like, but make it extremely hard to do meaningful damage with them. Getting hit with the butt end of a knife is pretty nasty, but it's not even close to getting the business end put through an eye. :)
On 6/15/2002 at 11:12am, Wolfen wrote:
RE: Drawing new weapons in combat...?
Paganini,
The rules governing reduction of prep-times cover exactly that. Allow me to post the applicable stats, and demonstrate...
1-3 rounds prep. time
Pull knife: 1 round (from sheath)
Flip blade down and cock back: 2 rounds.
2 MP to reduce prep time by 1 second, Reflex/TN of 7
If you have the dagger in hand, but not flipped and cocked back, you don't have to worry about the "Pull knife" step. If the dagger is already flipped, ready to throw, but not cocked back, I would think that would lose a single round from prep time. I'd also lose the pull knife stage if you had a specially rigged sleeve sheath, or the flip stage if you had them prepped already in your other hand. From there, it's only a matter of rolling to reduce time. I believe it is possible to reduce it more than a single round by spending more dice, though I am not sure if this would be an additional roll, or one roll for all MP spent in prep. time reduction. For instance...
Johnny the Knife has earned the reputation of being one of the fastest knife throwers around. One day he is thus challenged, and a contest is arranged; 3 knives into a post at 10 ft, quick as you can get 'em, and all have to hit. Johnny accepts the challenge, and steps up to the mark, his 3 throwing knives in his off hand, prepared to throw. His Aim is 7, and his Proficiency in throwing daggers is 10, which gives him a Missile Pool of 17.
At the mark, he pulls, cocks back and throws the first dagger. His player opts to spend 4 MP to reduce time by 2 rounds, and rolls his Reflex (6) vs the TN of 7. His roll is 10, 5, 4, 3, 2 and 2. One success, which means he has successfully reduced time. Now he throws 3 dice into his throwing roll, vs a TN of 7, with the results of 4, 8 and 6. Another single success, but enough to get the dagger in the post. He opts to spend 4 more to reduce the prep time for the second dagger, and rolls 10, 10, 10, 9, 5 and 3. 4 successes.. more than he needed. He puts 2 points into the second throw roll, and rolls another two 10s, for two successes, another solid hit! He's down on his MP now (4 dice left) so he only reduces the time by 1 round this time, spending 2 MP in the attempt. He rolls reflex, and comes up with 9, 9, 9, 7, 6 and 2, again succeeding in reducing times. He then throws his last two dice into throwing the last knife. A 5 and an 8 are his rolls, making 1 last success, and no dice left in his MP. This ends up with 3 knives quivering in the post in just under 4 seconds... Accuracy and speed both. His contender attempts the same, but just can't beat his speed.. Johnny's title is defended, for now.
Now, if Johnny had elected to spend any applicable SAs, he would have had an even better chance, but as it was, he still succeeded. (btw, A character could also have the stats given in 1 or 2 good sessions of TRoS, so it's not like he was even a particularly advanced character..) All dice rolled were genuine, with no fudging of the rolls.
On 6/15/2002 at 2:28pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Drawing new weapons in combat...?
Nathan,
Lance is right, but I'll distill his point down a bit.
In TROS, you can throw a knife near-instantaneously, as you describe, but it costs Combat Pool dice to do it. That's what the "pros" you describe are doing, so to speak - they have such insane Combat Pools that losing 2-3 dice doesn't matter much.
However, none of the player-characters in my game, and I suspect most TROS PCs at the moment, get this focused on knife-throwing; they're all about their thumpin' big swords and whatnot. Hence they whine when the constraints that do apply to a fair/kinda knife thrower get applied to them.
'Course, now I want to make up a dancer babe character who's a demon with a knife.
Best,
Ron
On 6/15/2002 at 9:58pm, Brian Leybourne wrote:
RE: Drawing new weapons in combat...?
Wolfen wrote: Paganini,
The rules governing reduction of prep-times cover exactly that. Allow me to post the applicable stats, and demonstrate...
1-3 rounds prep. time
Pull knife: 1 round (from sheath)
Flip blade down and cock back: 2 rounds.
2 MP to reduce prep time by 1 second, Reflex/TN of 7
If you have the dagger in hand, but not flipped and cocked back, you don't have to worry about the "Pull knife" step. If the dagger is already flipped, ready to throw, but not cocked back, I would think that would lose a single round from prep time. I'd also lose the pull knife stage if you had a specially rigged sleeve sheath, or the flip stage if you had them prepped already in your other hand. From there, it's only a matter of rolling to reduce time. I believe it is possible to reduce it more than a single round by spending more dice, though I am not sure if this would be an additional roll, or one roll for all MP spent in prep. time reduction. For instance...
Johnny the Knife has earned the reputation of being one of the fastest knife throwers around. One day he is thus challenged, and a contest is arranged; 3 knives into a post at 10 ft, quick as you can get 'em, and all have to hit. Johnny accepts the challenge, and steps up to the mark, his 3 throwing knives in his off hand, prepared to throw. His Aim is 7, and his Proficiency in throwing daggers is 10, which gives him a Missile Pool of 17.
At the mark, he pulls, cocks back and throws the first dagger. His player opts to spend 4 MP to reduce time by 2 rounds, and rolls his Reflex (6) vs the TN of 7. His roll is 10, 5, 4, 3, 2 and 2. One success, which means he has successfully reduced time. Now he throws 3 dice into his throwing roll, vs a TN of 7, with the results of 4, 8 and 6. Another single success, but enough to get the dagger in the post. He opts to spend 4 more to reduce the prep time for the second dagger, and rolls 10, 10, 10, 9, 5 and 3. 4 successes.. more than he needed. He puts 2 points into the second throw roll, and rolls another two 10s, for two successes, another solid hit! He's down on his MP now (4 dice left) so he only reduces the time by 1 round this time, spending 2 MP in the attempt. He rolls reflex, and comes up with 9, 9, 9, 7, 6 and 2, again succeeding in reducing times. He then throws his last two dice into throwing the last knife. A 5 and an 8 are his rolls, making 1 last success, and no dice left in his MP. This ends up with 3 knives quivering in the post in just under 4 seconds... Accuracy and speed both. His contender attempts the same, but just can't beat his speed.. Johnny's title is defended, for now.
Now, if Johnny had elected to spend any applicable SAs, he would have had an even better chance, but as it was, he still succeeded. (btw, A character could also have the stats given in 1 or 2 good sessions of TRoS, so it's not like he was even a particularly advanced character..) All dice rolled were genuine, with no fudging of the rolls.
Just one point - remember that your MP is empty until you are ready to throw, and then it fills at a rate of your MA in dice per round. Lets say the character has an MA of 6, this means that if he spends 4 reducing the lead time, he'll only have 2 dice left to throw with, and will thus exhaust his MP and have to wait another round to get another 6 (which he'll spend some of reducing the prep time etc). In other words, he'll never get more than 2 to throw if he spends 4 reducing the prep time, those only refresh AFTER the prep time has passed (although you can spend dice to reduce the time in anticipation of getting them, if you know what I mean).
Brian.
On 6/16/2002 at 11:27am, Ben wrote:
hmm...
I'm pretty sure it's Wit instead of MA.
On 6/16/2002 at 2:51pm, Jared A. Sorensen wrote:
RE: Drawing new weapons in combat...?
Mike Holmes wrote: The usefullness of the Iai in combat is probably much less, as the move depends on being ready after all, just in a different way. It's a quickdraw maneuver, muh like a western shoot out (hence the conversion of he Japanese film to the shootout genres). In other words the amount of time to ready will probably be similar whether you use Iai in combat or not.
The samurai would train to attack from a seated position with a sheathed sword -- the idea is to strike down a potential assailant before they can kill your lord (but without just being in obvious "guard" mode with a drawn blade...which is just rude).
Legend has it that Samurai sword masters, being proponents of counterstriking would often approach each other and circle never drawing, knowing that the one who drew first would surely lose to the counterstrike of the other.
The Kendo matches I saw really illustrated the whole counterstrike thing. There's a long period of tense silence, then WHAM! Someone scores a point. It's like chess with swords...
On 6/16/2002 at 6:35pm, Bankuei wrote:
RE: Drawing new weapons in combat...?
If anyone has seen the movie "Sword of Doom" that totally plays that tense moment of action. There was something like 5 minutes of circling, each footstep was like an attack, it was scary. Even the judges realized that this "practice" duel was going too far. :)
Chris
On 6/16/2002 at 6:57pm, Ace wrote:
RE: Drawing new weapons in combat...?
I must say have no small desire to see a duel between a longsword stylist and a kenjutsu stylist.
Give em appropriate armor and apropriate wasters and let them go at it.
It would be facinating to see how the styles interact from a martial POV
Also interesting would be knife wrestling vs. tantojutsu and either of the two vs. arsnis or pentjak silat. Heck any of those can take on a street fighter
I suppose you could also do quarter staff vs. bo but how would you tell the difference
Unfortunately the WMA and EMA people probably aren't open to this sort of thing and while they are right that it wouldn't prove anything it sure would make a great show
On 6/16/2002 at 7:29pm, Jake Norwood wrote:
RE: Drawing new weapons in combat...?
Unfortunately the WMA and EMA people probably aren't open to this sort of thing and while they are right that it wouldn't prove anything it sure would make a great show
I think the real problem is getting two folks with decent training together. There are very few serious Kendoists out here, but I've sparred every one that I could get the chance to. In 1994 John Clements, the ARMA director, took the advanced weapons sparring competition trophy at the US Kung-fu tournament...with a longsword! It has been done, and will be done more, but it's true that it proves little more than the skill of the winning fighter, not neccessarily the styles. Yes, some styles are better than others, but not enough to consistently make a difference when fighters of a different caliber are involved. In many ways, to use TROS terms, it comes down to CP and die allotment--maneuvers (read: schools) are means to that end.
I'm sure we'll see more of this sort of thing in the future, but it's touchy. If the eastern guy loses he doesn't want to tell anyone that he got beat my a martial art that's from the west--especially one that is sterotyped (wrongly) as being clumsy. If the WMA guy wins he doesn't want to talk about it too much, for fear of being seen as a braggard. Yeah, I've won almost every match I've ever fought a kendoist, but not every one. Some guys are really good. Some guys suck. I know I have beat every boffer fighter I've gone up with, but that's a different story.
Going back real fast to Sword of Doom--it, and every other Mifune Film--is well worth the time, money, and search. Must-see TROS films, asian or no! Especially anything directed by Kurosawa.
Doesn't Sword of Doom fit the TROS model flawlessly...all the blood, passions (SA's galore), etc. Also, notice that even though the main character takes on 15 guys at once, he never actually fights more than two in any one "round."
Jake
On 6/17/2002 at 1:07am, Bankuei wrote:
RE: Drawing new weapons in combat...?
As a brief aside, this again brings up the "fear factor" and hesitation of the psychology of combat. It seems that most of the folks are cowed after they see him calmly walk through half their number before they could even tense a muscle...
Chris