Hi folks,

I want to try something different from GURPS, CORPS and EABA. I've a lot of ideas about how my ideal game should play, but I think it would be wiser first to try what other accomplished game designer have done. I'd like to use some non traditional game that's suitable for modern military/espionage games. We like horror, misteries and weirdness, but not much -- something Ken Hite labeled as low-cospiracy games (magic and paranormal abilities should be subtle). My group likes to explore a "realistic" world, and live a coherent story, so I guess our primary creative agenda is Simulationism (of a reality similar to ours). Gritty, as opposed to cinematic.

With traditional games the burden is all on the GM shoulders (mine), and now I don't have the time and the will to do all the work. We are open to every option, we will dedicate the next months trying different non-traditional games, mostly with one-shot (or really short) adventures.

What games should I try?

Hi!
  Savage Worlds is supposed to be a decent game for modern campaigns.
  I've heard good things about "SpyCraft"
  WitchCraft/Buffy/Angel/AFMBE are modern, thematic and fun!
  BESM might be narrative enough for you and is definitely modern...
  Scion is modern, but I think its kinda crunchy (going to be playing it soon)
  There might be better games for Modern settings that are more Indie. But I haven't played it...

dindenver, thanks for the reply.

Anyway all the games (except for Scion, which I don't know) you mentioned seem pretty traditional designs. Also they are on the cinematic side of the axis, where I'd like a game that emphasize gritty reality. We are looking for radically different games, that share GM powers across the players and require very little preparation.

I would love to play in a "Tom Clancy" type adventure. Maybe that's impossible.

Universalis

David

No offence, but you can't just say "Universalis".

That's like me coming along and saying "d20".

Universalis may be an innovative and dynamic system that oushes the envelope of roleplaying to new extremes, but it encapsulates everything, and for someone after a gritty modern game I think that Universalis has too much scope to break beyond the confines of such conventions. Unless you were going to lay down a whole bunch of ground rules first which sort of defeats the purpose of playing "Universalis" in the first place. If three players want gritty realism and two players actively oppose them with a high fantasy storyline running through the narrative, the final product definitely won't be in the style hoped by Luther.

If I were going to indicate some of my preferred options, I'd suggest things like the "Ghost Dog" sourcebook for the BESM/Tri-Stat system, that's pretty dark and gritty but not so overly crunchy that it destroys narrative flow.

Just remember that you can easily generate a non-traditional gaming experience using traditional tools. It just takes a little imagination, and that's what the hobby is all about. 

V

Luther wrote:
My group likes to explore a "realistic" world, and live a coherent story, so I guess our primary creative agenda is Simulationism (of a reality similar to ours). Gritty, as opposed to cinematic.

Vulpinoid wrote: No offence, but you can't just say "Universalis".

Moreno I think you missed the explore in "My group likes to explore a realistic world". The word realism/realistic is totaly irrelevant in regard to my proposal of a simulationist agenda -- we focus and enjoy exploring the world and give it life for the sake of it.

David, now I fully understand your suggestion. Well it could be a really fun and different experience using Universalis, I think I'll give it a try. Thanks for your feedback.

Anyone have tried to use The Pool for a swat/military game?

Hi Luther,

My suggestions are Dread by Rafael Chandler and Dead of Night. Both of them rely on a certain intensity of back-story and discovery of "what's going on," yet with mechanics and procedures to make that content which are not at all like the classic games you mentioned.

You can check out my review of an earlier version of Dread in the Reviews section, Rafael's recent thread about playing it which includes dialogue with me, and my threads about Dead of Night. These games really put the boot into the widespread and false belief that design discussions here, and my views in particular, are unsympathetic to Simulationist preferences. They also taught me how to enjoy it for myself, which historically had not been the case before then.

Best, Ron

Vulpinoid wrote:
No offence, but you can't just say "Universalis".

That's like me coming along and saying "d20".

Universalis may be an innovative and dynamic system that oushes the envelope of roleplaying to new extremes, but it encapsulates everything, and for someone after a gritty modern game I think that Universalis has too much scope to break beyond the confines of such conventions. Unless you were going to lay down a whole bunch of ground rules first which sort of defeats the purpose of playing "Universalis" in the first place. If three players want gritty realism and two players actively oppose them with a high fantasy storyline running through the narrative, the final product definitely won't be in the style hoped by Luther.

V

Thanks a lot guys and Ron. I've read the review, and still reading some threads. I've downloaded the core rules, and definitely have a handful of RPGs to try. This thread has been very productive too me, so again thanks to the Forgities!

Hi,

Just registered because I'm designing a system of my own, and now that I see this thread I feel like letting Luther know that my system is after nearly the exact same goals he lays out here. Specially the gritty quality as opposed to cynematic and the hard-core simulationism, slash realism. Well except that I intend the system to be universal (no specific or default setting), but by no means in detriment of its suitability for a modern setting.

I guess I'll be posting in the Playtesting forum sooner or later, so see you there.

Have someone tried Unsung.

Yeah, it's narrative, but it seems built for cops/soldiers games. It could fit the bill.

Theres thousands of good games out there that would fit the bill but modern (non-supersnatural) games are... well kinda few. Unsung kinda creeped me out (I dont like the myth and glorification that seems to be surrounding the armed forces and police in the US) but its probably a great game though.

I dont wanna be annoying or antyhing but couldn't you and your friends try to make your own game? And get it the way you guys like it exactly? I mean it would mean, for one thing, that it would be cheaper (you wouldnt have to buy your own game) plus the creative process in itself could be a way for everyone to simple flow in with the rules without having to try to access them during the game...

/Jens

Making a game is a really time consuming activity. I did in the past, and I would do that again if I had time, I love to design things. But I also think it's worth to see what other guys have done before you so to not reinvent the wheel. Here at the forge most of you are so much more rpg-literate than me, I can only learn.

Sorry to repeat myself: what about Unsung?

If you're willing to repurpose a bit, I'd recommend Call of Cthulu d20 or Shadowrun 3rd (I haven't played 4th). They each strike a nice balance between tactical combat and "a gun to the face is serious bad news." CoC is a bit grittier, but SR is an espionage game. Both include rules for the supernatural. Of course, you may not want to put in the work involved in creating setting, they are rather specific.

John,

CoC (even more in it's d20 incarnation) and Shadowrun are fairly traditional games. We are looking for something radically different, we want to broaden our gaming experience. I guess the sub-title would be:

Is there a way to enjoy a gritty, realistic world and characters' hard life using "indie" mechanics?

... ehm Yes? (<--- my reply to the question stated above)

All you gotta do is make it. I mean there are, I'm sure, one thousand and one games out there that are great but the biggest thrill according to me is to make something from the bottom up. Even though it turns out to be crap there is first of all a lesson taught there to help you make better games in the future and second it is something that YOU have made. (I have a chair I've made as a kid at home, you can't sit on it, you kinda need to lean it against a wall to make it stand but there it is, redundant and pointless but no matter where Ive moved in my life (Ive moved around allot) its always been there)

Second, realism in rpg's is an illusion according to me. All you need is a system with a high amount of dice crunching to reflect the objectivism (? don't know if that phrace work there in english but wtf, you know what I mean I hope) of the game, so that you the gamemaster can go "aw crap, sry jimmy, but your character caught the bullet with his forehead". The rest is just fluff.
The realism comes from the descriptions and settings. It is created by the mutuall agreement between the players (and the GM who is after all another player) that some actions lead to certain results. Not ducking when shot at, for example, is atleast not recommended and a player not doing that must be aware that it might be bad for the character. This is done by a mutual agreement. That agreement can come from a heavy set of rules that all players abide by or by an informal agreement between the player about how the world should work.
The first option lets the GM of the hook if the players start whining and is, according to me, better if the players dont know each other to well... the second is better with a group of friends who know where they all stand on things, how they will react. (its like a legal system if everyone could trust that the judge would be a fair person in all aspect and infinetly wise there would be no need for a set of rules, but since we cannot we must have that set of rules (with its own limitations and problems which is another discussion entirely) - since it is a game and hopefully you guys know and trust each other the need for a huge set of lists, tables and rules doens't exist)

Otherwise my opinion is the same Unknown Armies, if you haven't tried it you damn well should... (its the game we've played the most and when me and a friend worked at a hobby store here in Sweden it was the game we sold the most to people... its as close to perfection as Ive seen in a non-indie game)

/Jens

Maybe I've not made myself clear enough: I don't have time to write an RPG, even a crappy, short one.

Thanks for the UA suggestion.