Just to lay the groundwork, my game is set in a steampunk world. However, steam technology is mostly limited to "the cities" whereas "the towns" and elsewhere it is a traditional fantasy setting with that dash of steampunk. So, magic is still pretty important.

Many games have magic and approach it differently. What I want to get down to in this is "Magical Mastery" or, in other words, what can I do with my magic? Now, in my magic system, so far I've been using well defined spells the player chooses between. But what I'm having a lot of trouble with is how do I break the spells down into different "Spell levels?" I don't like D&D's "spell levels" at all, I could never see a wizard in Forgotten Realms going "Yes, I'd like to attempt to learn Hold Monster, but I haven't learned to cast 7th level spells."

In my system, I could see the Wizards defining themselves by their "mastery" of a certain spell level. In other words, "I'm a Wizard of the 2nd Order, because I can cast spells from the 2nd Circle."  However much I like grouping my Wizards into 3rd/2nd/1st order, what if I make spells stronger than the 1st order later on? (Which will happen) Also, the spell level is very important in my system because they take longer to cast. Intuitively, it'd be better for the spells to go 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. 

I guess what I'm really wondering is, how can I rank spells and avoid the whole "spell level" mess?

Have you ever read Ironclaw?  It's where I got the inspiration for my spell system.  Magic is broken into schools, which is broken into 1st circle, 2nd, etc.  (They called it Apprentice, Journeyman, Master)  Basically each circle had its own spells or more powerful version of older spells, you had to spend XP to get them so you didn't just automatically get them when you got to certain levels, and you had to have enough ranks in the school to achieve each rank.  I haven't read Ironclaw in a while but I think it was pretty close to that lol.

Maybe if you're trying for a mastery type thing you could come up with a way where PCs use their XP to slowly advance individual spells, and each circle has requirements.  You can't reach circle 2 til you master Magic Missile and Identify, or something along those lines. 

I personally love the idea of "circles" of magic, it builds more RP into the wizards too, especially if they have to take a test or something.  Can you say sidequest?

If you're worried about generating powerful spells that define the upper limits of your magic schools, then possibly generating more powerful spells later on. You could always work with the idea that certain types of effects are learnt within the school, but the actual magnitude of the effect depends on the aptitude of the caster.

In this way magic becomes a function of both knowledge and instinctive power. A spellcaster could pick up more knowledge and therefore cast a wider variety of different magic effects, or the spellcaster could work on their attunment with the energies that actually empower the magic and therefore cast those spells at more powerful levels.

Simple and easily understood effects might cover your rank 3s, while more complex spells cover your rank 2s, and the more complicated effects become rank 1s. (If you are still planning to go with numbers that descend as the spells get harder). You might even include some kind of ruling about combining magical effects for more complicated spells than these.

Using a system like this, you don't get the problem of being forced to relearn better versions of spells at higher levels when you've already bought the spell at a lower level.

Optionally, you could even develop the spells in much the same way as skills in many other systems. You buy the spell much like you'd buy a skill, then with xp expenditure you can increase the potential of that spell once the initial effect has been purchased.

When it comes to magic, you can bend all the rules. That's half the point.

V

David wrote:
In my system, I could see the Wizards defining themselves by their "mastery" of a certain spell level. In other words, "I'm a Wizard of the 2nd Order, because I can cast spells from the 2nd Circle."  However much I like grouping my Wizards into 3rd/2nd/1st order, what if I make spells stronger than the 1st order later on? (Which will happen) Also, the spell level is very important in my system because they take longer to cast. Intuitively, it'd be better for the spells to go 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. 

I guess what I'm really wondering is, how can I rank spells and avoid the whole "spell level" mess?

David wrote:
Just to lay the groundwork, my game is set in a steampunk world. However, steam technology is mostly limited to "the cities" whereas "the towns" and elsewhere it is a traditional fantasy setting with that dash of steampunk. So, magic is still pretty important.

Many games have magic and approach it differently. What I want to get down to in this is "Magical Mastery" or, in other words, what can I do with my magic? Now, in my magic system, so far I've been using well defined spells the player chooses between. But what I'm having a lot of trouble with is how do I break the spells down into different "Spell levels?" I don't like D&D's "spell levels" at all, I could never see a wizard in Forgotten Realms going "Yes, I'd like to attempt to learn Hold Monster, but I haven't learned to cast 7th level spells."

In my system, I could see the Wizards defining themselves by their "mastery" of a certain spell level. In other words, "I'm a Wizard of the 2nd Order, because I can cast spells from the 2nd Circle."  However much I like grouping my Wizards into 3rd/2nd/1st order, what if I make spells stronger than the 1st order later on? (Which will happen) Also, the spell level is very important in my system because they take longer to cast. Intuitively, it'd be better for the spells to go 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. 

I guess what I'm really wondering is, how can I rank spells and avoid the whole "spell level" mess?

In my system, I could see the Wizards defining themselves by their "mastery" of a certain spell level. In other words, "I'm a Wizard of the 2nd Order, because I can cast spells from the 2nd Circle."  However much I like grouping my Wizards into 3rd/2nd/1st order, what if I make spells stronger than the 1st order later on? (Which will happen) Also, the spell level is very important in my system because they take longer to cast. Intuitively, it'd be better for the spells to go 1, 2, 3, 4, etc.

Here's my suggestion:

Your Order determines how good you are, and the better a spell is the more difficult it is. That way Order can mean something both in-fiction and in-rules, and you don't have spell levels, you have spell difficulties.

Robert wrote:
Here's my suggestion:

Your Order determines how good you are, and the better a spell is the more difficult it is. That way Order can mean something both in-fiction and in-rules, and you don't have spell levels, you have spell difficulties.

David wrote:

Robert wrote:
Here's my suggestion:

Your Order determines how good you are, and the better a spell is the more difficult it is. That way Order can mean something both in-fiction and in-rules, and you don't have spell levels, you have spell difficulties.

Separating the fiction and the mechanics does have its own appeal to it. However, that also makes things crunchy, as each spell is different.  Imagine having to look up how long it takes to cast each individual spell in D&D. Oy, I need to spend more time thinking this through.

Thanks for all the great suggestions so far, guys. It really helps breaking through a mindblock.

Hi!
  Maybe you can use a tree system like Charms in Exalted or Talents in WoW?
  That way you can say you need to know this before you learn that, but its not based on level or anything else, just advancement on the tree.

Another thing to consider is that most "Steampunk" worlds reflect the later rennaisance in our world and the early industrial age. This was a time of high science, when the scholars of the world thought they were close to solving all the answers and they hadn't yet opened the Pandora's box of quantum mechanics.

In a world with magic, the scholars could have achieved the same level of mastery. Thinking that they had refined all of the deeper mysteries of the world into kabbalistic formulae and elemental resonances.

If you want a magic setting that reflects this kind of steampunk aesthetic, you can always categorise spells by elemental types and formulae, wher the more complex spells are only available by mastering more than one of these fields of knowledge.

In such a system, a third circle mage might only understand a single sphere of knowledge, while a second circle mage may have mastered two, and a first circle mage has mastered three. If you want to go back to a D&D reference it would be like saying a character can only pick up evocation spells (or one of the other spell types) when they are starting out. It's only when they reach the second level of mastery that they can expand their repetoire.

This is not so much a restriction on spell level, but more of a restriction on spell diversity. And some spell may require diversity across several spheres of knowledge before they can be accessed.

(which is where different occult societies and steampunk universities might come into the picture...)

V

David wrote:
In my system, I could see the Wizards defining themselves by their "mastery" of a certain spell level. In other words, "I'm a Wizard of the 2nd Order, because I can cast spells from the 2nd Circle."  However much I like grouping my Wizards into 3rd/2nd/1st order, what if I make spells stronger than the 1st order later on? (Which will happen) Also, the spell level is very important in my system because they take longer to cast. Intuitively, it'd be better for the spells to go 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. 

I guess what I'm really wondering is, how can I rank spells and avoid the whole "spell level" mess?

It's worth a note that there are other ways of restricting high level spell use besides prohibiting them completely until a particular level is reached.  The more powerful a spell, the more draining it could be in some important way, or the more pronounced or likely unpleasant side effects might be.

I like the idea of an apprentice being able to try a really tough spell in a desperate situation, especially if the act of self-sacrifice or the unintended side effects spawn interesting story.

In Mage, the levels of abilities determine what kind of stuff that be done in a particular field.  Level 1 is sense,level 2 is manipulate, 3 is create etc (don't hold me to those please).  So there you have a distinct sense that a given effect might require the ability to create, which you may not be able to do.  Second Circle spells are those that make use of the special ability granted by Rank 2 (manipulate) and so forth.

You could perhaps organise effects by, say, range or number affected, or damage quantity, and link these to the spell levels via ability levels.  Skill Rank x is required to cast spells with a given range; a spell built to work over that range would be at least level x.  Therefore again skill rank determines maximum spell level.  That way its immediately obvious what range a spell created by that character could possibly have, too, which may limit some of the consequences of spell effect inflation.  You wouldn't create a new version of a spell with longer range or more damage, you would achieve those ends by gaining casting levels.

Wow, you guys are really awesome at getting the gears in my head spinning!!

Right now this is what I'm thinking. You can attempt spells out of your reach, but you have to succeed a caster skill check. If you fail, you make a willpower check. If you succeed, you get to choose to let the spell fizzle -OR- perform the spell and lose 1 HP permanently (HP is 50-80 depending on level and stats.) If you fail, the spell fizzles -AND- you lose 1 HP permanently. 

For spell progression, a caster gets better at several areas.  Like control, complexity and power. Better stats boost all areas for all schools, but to boost them beyond that, it's specific to schools...

Ok, I think I've decided that my magic system is going to be complex enough that I'm not going to recommend it for "beginners." I was also thinking that a third character sheet devoted to magic might be in order. How do people feel about going from 2 to 3 sheets? Am I going to scare people off?

Damn the no edit button. I wanted to mention the 3rd sheet would be specific to magic users only.

David wrote:
Ok, I think I've decided that my magic system is going to be complex enough that I'm not going to recommend it for "beginners." I was also thinking that a third character sheet devoted to magic might be in order. How do people feel about going from 2 to 3 sheets? Am I going to scare people off?