Ok, first of all Im new to this forum and I know that its not really ok to start a "forum-career" by making a new thread/subject in it, but I really need help. Ive made allot of my own games for the groups Ive played with but now Ive kinda met a brick wall (or in my case the brick/tile warehouse I work six days a week in which kinda sucks out all the energy I used to have for these things)...

I want to make a roleplaying game set in my homecountry Sweden. The reason for this is that when the choice of setting comes up (in modern times rpg's) it usually ends up in the US, being the place me and my gamers know the most aswell as the least through movies, books and songs. The US has this air of "anything can happen" whereas Sweden has a "nothing ever really happens at all" feel to it.
Its not of some wierd nationalistic impulse but because of the theme of the game I'm thinking of that I want it set here. I want to make a game, a horror game, about alienation and ennui. A surreal horror game where the themes include the complete annihilation of the self in favour of "doing your job", "growing up", "living your life". So far Ive gotten down various texts considering the latent horrors at work, as an unemployed, being homeless, family life and so on. Not very spectacular themes (the reality of being homeless is not very exciting at all). But also mixing in more "classic" themes like isolation in a small community or simple madness (in the care of the Swedish mental institutions).
Ive tried for "social-surrealistic (kinda aimed at the 70's genre of social realism) urban horror" but so far I can't really figure out what the game is about... How can I make it interesting without spoiling the concept? What will be the classic antagonists? Popularized-Sweden is just very gray and plain in comparison to popularized-US, which is more colourful, hence the reason for placing the setting "here" instead of "over-there". Plus I think it might be more scary to have a horror theme set in your hometown instead of some place youve never been.

Monsters in the classical sense have no place in it since they are representations and corporalizations of horrors. Beings made flesh in our minds so that we can handle the fear of something better, something that can be killed or atleast fought. So no monsters since that would make the horror less scary (much like a film based on a book of stephen king, scary for the first 45 minutes and then when the glowing monster with claws make an appearance, horribly boring)
Elder Gods and Things That Should Not Be are also excluded since that would imply that there are some meaning to it all. A god has the effect that it is a way out, something that can be begged and pleaded at, which rips away the isolation - even if the god in question is a creapy crawly spaghettifaced god with no intentions of letting you live.
The Game Kult (originally Swedish) made an attempt at the "The World is a Prison" theme stolen happily (I think) from the assyrians. First I thought that might work, but then I realise that its just a sci-fi setting connected to our world and filled with monsters (see above). So scratch that...

What can I use as a central goal? What can I use as a generic bad guy? In a game where systems, social effects and historical non-controlled economical movements are the main reason behind the horror - how can I make it interesting?
(also the game is set around marxism ideas of class and class consciousness but I excluded that part above since that would make me sound like a complete little politruck)

So... like I said, I need help.

(oh the system I had in mind is one made some time back where you have points which, when spent, lets you reroll a D6, 1-3= "failure", 4-6= "success", in all other situations you just roll one die and go with that. The points are renamed and mean different things depending on the game (in one game it ment "Social Grace" in another it was "Physique" in this it might be "Hope"). When the points are gone your out of the game. You buy various "advantages" which gives you a bonus on specific rolls, or the effect of the roll (if it succeeds) or lets you know skills which most people aren't privy to. You also buy "disadvantages" which lets you regain points of you play on them (like "enemy" or whatever), all players have the disadvantage "wounded" which, if you play out the fact that your heavily wounded lets you get points back (and so survive))

If I posted this in the wrong part of the forum, or if its not ok to start up by posting a thread - I hope the admins/mods will excuse me.

/Jens

Interesting dilemma.

Perhaps the characters all have some kind of insanity which causes them to see reality in a differet light. This could work as a benefit, in that it separates them from society and gives them a chance to affect it from outside, but is something they have to keep hidden for fear that they may be locked away in an institution. Such characters would face the daily struggles of how to advance themselves within the thought patterns that their insanity has established, while trying not be become so alien that the rest of the world views them as monsters.

In this type of setting, you'd end up with dual "bad guys". On the one side you'd have the psychopaths who have completely given themselves over to their insanity. On the other side you'd have the psychiatrists, doctors and their squads of enforcers who try to keep the insane locked up. Other "friendly" NPCs, or morally grey characters would be other mildly insane people who are successfully keeping their insanities to themselves like the PC characters. This would be a setting where "nothing really happens" because the doctors and their enforcers are so successful at keeping the peace, or at least hiding the worst when things do happen.

This has the added complexity that a paranoid character would view "systems, social effects and historical non-controlled economical movements" in a completely different way to a character who was mildly autistic, and both would view the events differently to a religious zealot. The insanities can be something that the players can work with to help regain their points as well. The more insane they are, the easier it is to regain the points, but the more they will stand out in the eyes of the "sanity squads".

Just an idea...

V

That might work... My only fear is creating a new Changeling: the dreaming... But the Inspired angle is pretty good since it gives the players some kind of connection between each other. Perhaps a bit like the ... crap I got a good idea all of a sudden (I got a day off so my mind is kinda working again :)) what if you based it mildly around Francis Fukuyama's idea about the end of times? (basicly we live now at the peak of existence and all attempts to improve it further will bring about the recreation of time where you start from zero working up to this level of civilization, hes a conflict historian I think)

Personally I find the idea kinda appalling but wtf... okok the players find themselves perceiving this end. They notice the stagnation of the end of times and find themselves trapped in it, trying to break free or just getting away from this situation. This inevitebly will destroy the civilization we live in and the modes through which they will have to bring about this change will be aggressive, destructive and over all kinda misantropic which in turn makes them appear insane which will put them atv odds with friends, family, society and psychologists etc... well mostly everyone.

Kinda like the Invisibles (the comic) but based more around the feeling of isolation and stagnation than rebellion and creativity. Anyway that would incorporate your idea of a dual bad guy, those who just give in and try to smash it all aswell as those who (according to the characters) are duped into defending this slowly decaying society.

The risk would be that the game would become less world oriented (less casual every day horror) and more mind blowing-destruction-guns-blazing-wheels-screaching kinda thing...?

Thank you
/Jens

I had only really considered the similarities to "Changeling: the Dreaming" as I was coming to the conclusion of my last post, and by that stage I had momentum so I didn't want to lose it and start over.

You've got a point though.

The essence of stories is conflict. If there is no struggle, then there is no story to tell, there is nothing that needs to be overcome.

I figure that you need that conflict to come from without, or to come from within. Monsters are your typical external conflict, I was trying to look for something more internal (especially since you've decided the game world will be a grey and dreary place). Insanity was the first idea to come to mind, I'm sure there are others though.

V

Rekyl, for many of us, deep in our subconscious America is not a country but a movie studio.

So far, your overview of a dystopian society is similar to Perfect (see my sig). Perfect mixes a bit of 1984 with a staid, rigorously classicist, Victorian flavor; and it thrusts the PC into conflict right away, by asserting that they are all, in one way or another, criminal and that the very framing of scenes will be around subversive crimes or associations with subversive organizations.

It can play out in a "campaign" to be a hopeful, successful revolution that throws over society and breaks up the harsh classicism... or the players can make it tougher buy risking "major" criminal actions at the risk of it turning into a spiral of individual dysfunctionality and madness (one of the cool things about it: players basically "bet" their character's happiness and health to attempt more significant, sweeping crimes). The spiral of failure hinges on the fact that the Big Brother "Inspectors" have nearly complete autonomy; and when they catch someone, they try to reprogram that person rather than just lock them up (with the expected fallout that generates for the character). "For their own good," doncha know....

Now.... am I saying, "Go buy Perfect and play that in a slightly different setting?" Well, no... but it could certainly give you a direction to start going, with regards to aggressive scene framing (in a mode relevant to your game themes and setting) and directly coupling character traits to setting obligations and to role-playing restrictions ("madness"). Heck, maybe you can "file off the numbers" and abstract out the base relationships between its mechanics, and then re-lace them into your Grey Sweden setting and points of conflict/theme?

HTH;
David

Hi rekyl, welcome to the forge,

It's really odd, I was thinking about (perhaps) related issues just yesterday, and how to get them into a game.

At the core of what I got at, it's a contradiction set up by past abuse or pain: Why leap forward with new vigour and vitality, if in doing so you forget the abuse you had? What's the point of vigour and vitality when your ignoring what happened? Is vigourously loving to do something, like write a book or travel the world, really caring about it, when at the same time that is ignoring the past abuse and horror? How can you care about something vigourous and vital like that, when to care is to stop caring?

Keep in mind the past abuse doesn't have to be yours or even to have happend in your lifetime, the pain of past generations is carefully past on, because they care.

Rather than monsters, the internal conflict of characters could be illustrated as angels of compassion circling people as they move through normal, swedish day to day life, just on the verge of being seen even though they stand so much in front of people. The angels effectively keep them there - to use a very down to earth example, you could imagine them keeping you there at the wharehouse, constantly reminding you of what you'll forget if you just leave right now for something better. I'm thinking multiple angels from all sorts of compassions - though perhaps all in unified, terrible choir.

The peak of the story is if the character reaches out, takes the neck of the angel and snaps it (it might be ritually useful to have compassions written on thin pieces of dowel, for a player to take into his hands at this moment). You might take it as reverse horror - the tension of whether the human kills an angel of compassion, rather than the tension of whether a monster will kill a human.

I'll emphasise the 'if' - there's no tension if everyone knows the outcome from the begining. The answer will come from the player at that moment and there's no arguing with that (I'm making a case for narrativism, in other words)

Anyway, some ideas. Funny, it went a different way from what I was thinking of, with psuedo zombie martial artists who risk everything if they don't slump into further zombieness.

Hey, I can't help it if I have a vivid imagination! :)

First of all, thanks for all the help everyone...

(If my grammar and vocabulary is kinda shot its because Ive been working all day carrying tiles for other people and sucking up to strangers so Im kinda tired and aggressive (show me a person who likes their job and I'll show you a liar or a boss))

Vulpinoid:
Well conflict is everything - the question is how you make internal conflict interesting (we'fve tried the "your all the same person fighting for control of the body" - thing once and it kinda turned out ... well strange, but not so fun). I have to admit that the changeling connection isn't all that bad (Ive kinda hungered for a game to take of where changeling dumped us all: plenty of really cool ideas that suffered under the graft-on to WoD and made the game sort of a mix-all) and it would do with a more depressing tone. (It feels like Im painting sweden in the greyest of colours but to be honest its just like everywhere else only people are a bit more laid back in some areas, somewhat uptight in others)
Internal conflict seems like the way to go somehow... also the war against reality seemed fun.

Oh and would a sociological effect (like say sexualism and sexism) be an internal or external conflict?

David:
Well Perfect seems cool (and being a sucker for games and especially indie-games I will most probably buy it (you had me at hello) :)) but victorian england seems kinda more... well dramatic than my idea also it kinda takes away the joy of making something on my own (I guess thats a standing problem when the people of this forum are as much creators as audience). Plus for various reasons the concept of rebellion would be met with a grunt and a "not again" from my players...

The betting of ones health to create greater achievements seems wonderful (shame I didnt think of it first ;P)

Callan S:
Thank you.

Well thats a pretty damn cool idea too... But what I dont get (scuse me for being a bit slowthinking right now - damn angel making me work) is how the angels would justify their actions exactly? Would the loss of care for what once where be a greater "sin" (since angels are in the example, sin seems appropriate) than the loss of what could be? Are these angels agents of a static world trying to avoid change at all costs or are they some form of collective memory that must be preserved so that mankind as a whole will remain (sort of like a Jungian memory bank where as many as possible need to be part of the subcounscious collective for it to be in effect)...

Personally I'm not much for narrativism ... or the classical GM-controlled structures... (I am assuming this is what you meen with "narrativism") Actually this is a long thing me and some friends talked about, mainly that the basis of any rpg thing is like a judical system in a society. You can't cover everything with rules or premade defintions since that would demand an endless amount of rules or definitions (since all actions are more or less unique) - but you cannot throw complete control into the hands of someone whom you don't trust either since that would create a draconic system of justice.
Being a participant in a roleplaying game demands what you cannot demand of a justice system (appearently), that all share the same defined goal or atleast "flavour" (maybe "mood" is better) and that all involved know and trust each other. Problem is that its impossible to share the same exakt "mood" or goal so there needs to be some form of systems or story control to keep the tale cohesive but if the other participants are to controlled they will stop being participants and just an audience. (same problem appear even if the role of guide is rotated - which seems to be the most often used method of "narrativists", that or a sudden switch in narrator)

Ok Im tired, gotta a lot to think about - but I also gotta work tomorrow (god I hate work even though my shoulders have never looked better since I started working in that place) - I hope I managed to be somehwat ... well toghether and didnt start to rant.

Thanks again for all the replies.

/Jens (tired, back-ache, sleepless but with some mean looking shoulders on him... "hurray")

Hi again Jens,

But what I dont get (scuse me for being a bit slowthinking right now - damn angel making me work) is how the angels would justify their actions exactly? Would the loss of care for what once where be a greater "sin" (since angels are in the example, sin seems appropriate) than the loss of what could be?

Hi again,
I made some random notes on the bus home from work last night kinda based on the concept that Vuplinoid put forward where the system promotes an internal conflict between madness and obedience to a world that, according to the character, has gone wrong.
So your metaphore, is that to be played out in game terms or as a set-up in the rules for creating a character? Is the characte creation promoting this self doubt or need to stick to the past? If so one could use it as part of the conflict between security and breaking free (the fear of failing vs the need to escape). A conflict which in reality has little to do with the actuall play and more with the character creation. So that the world, the mystical "breaking free or staying put" only exists as a thing in the character creation where as the game only revolves around the fact that the players are trying to cope with the real world. That would be kinda cool, duping the players that the game is about "fighting back the stagnation of the world" where in fact its about how crazy characters handle real life and justify their actions...

My good friend Emil suggested that as a group all characters would be bound together somehow from the start but also put into a conflict and that the game should revolve around getting out of that group conflict as best they could. His point was that most games doesn't really promote group conflict except as some secondary stage in the game and also they constantly tries to find a sollution to the "why do we stick together" problem... By making the characters a group who've met through the swedish psychological system and by chance had the same notion about the world (which they all noticed in say group therapy) they could still trust each other with secrets but most probaly hate each other aswell.

Or is that idea doomed as a "wow where all playing insane people... weee oooh aaah stabby-stabby" kinda game?

(On Narrativism: Ok, I got it wrong, sorry. Here in Sweden the concept of none-systems is extremely common especially at conventions... Which should also be explained since our game-conventions are extremely different from the European/US kind (plus we got one of the worlds oldest running annual conventions in Gothenburg 31 years so far), if you ever get to Sweden go here at easter and visit the Gothenburg convention, its worth it. One group, the ASF, started about ten years back putting up games at conventions where the basis of the game was group conflict and a form of mobile roleplaying where the mood was the main focus. They completely scrapped all rules in favour for a form of "system" that they called free-form but was in discussions renamed Narrativism. The book "Från Atlantis till Blekinge" ("From Atlantis to Blekinge" (a small swedish town) is a set of four freeform/narrativism scenarious, pretty damn good the lot of them) 

Hope this is less of a "rant-text" than my last post :D

/Jens

This may not be very kosher, but I'm kinda bumping the post because I wrote down som flavour texts for the idea (and posted on a blogg (its as good as any text storage system))... I hope thats ok with the Mod.

http://systematisering.blogspot.com/search/label/In%20English

Most of the bloggs in swedish but I wrote the flavour texts in english since... well since you guys are the once I've talked about the idea with.

Sry for bumping,
/Jens

A damn it... Ehm ok this is the Link... srysrysry

http://systematisering.blogspot.com/search/label/The%20Reals