So the free but not worthless thread gave me an idea, what if you promoted a free ad supported pdf via file share sites and such. The pdf could have a header or footer set to communicate to a mysql database or some such which would then display a banner ad, probably something like adsense. This would mean no matter how many people “stole” your game you could always make even a small amount of profit from people viewing. Aside from this you could set it up so people could purchase the pdf as an ad free book. A model like this would be incredibly awesome for a ransom style set up, as after the ransom was collected you could still gain some change here and there to cover continued maintenance.

    My idea (and mind you this is off my very basic understanding of php thus far) is to create a hyperlink to an image, that image would be a link to a page only created to track hits, and then redirect the person to the banners respective site. In this way the mysql database would supply the current advertisers image, if clicked it would then track that a person used it to get to the advertisers site, and then at the end of the month you provide your report to the person purchasing the ad space.

    Now this would pretty much mean that you could not include things like adsense and would have to solicit your own ads, but would be a simple way to do things(I think). I know I would not mind downloading pdfs that displayed say a banner in the header, and was only active when I opened it.

I would like to specifically discuss:
- Methods of executing the above idea
- Thoughts on executing the marketing
- Opinions regarding the idea
- Anything else you would like to bring up

Regards, Seth

In the future, everything will be stealable, copieable, and advertised-upon.

-G.

The biggest problem I've noticed is that the ad-industry would have to be extremely more sensitive to its customer groups. This is already happeing of course (like the ATM machines we have here (Sweden) that have direct advertisment thats being displayed on the screen depending on the time of day, the amount you take out and in what area the machine is).

I had, in another thread, an idea about a pamphlet-game being distributed at conventions. This game would be free and printed on cheap ass paper but would contain ads from campanies that would be interested in getting some direct contact with our specific customer group (ie geeks). The problem is of course that unless you have a capital to take from (which I dont) you can't print the first issue of the pamphlet-game as a loss to show its effectiveness and there are some problems with proving the ads effectiveness to the customers (the companies who would put their ads in it in this case).

The big issue is how you would get in contact with these companies that would place the ads there, explain that its not some random internet-ad thing since this has a more continuing effect on the readers (unlike internet ads that, to be honest few of us even remember seconds after we've seen them) and how you could make these comapnies take a risk with your game... I guess all thats needed are some contacts or some damn fine sales pitching.

Greg:
The future is now. All things are already easily stolen, downloaded and free. The only thing that seperates us from this truth is the thin vener of our common ideological hegemony. How to change the situation from theft to free and individual to group effort is a question for sales people or revolutionaries. :)

/Jens

If someone wanted to have an advertisement pulled from a server or web page or html page load inside a page on a PDF, how would one go about putting that into the PDF.

I love the concept. Just didn't know it was possible.

Thanks,
Ryan S. Johnson
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
http://www.guildofblades.com
http://www.1483online.com
http://www.thermopylae-online.com

I am certain that you could setup a PDF download server function that generates (i.e. "distills") the PDF on the fly, embedding a custom advertisement each time (and, thus, gaining you an ad view in your stats for the ad resolver).

I am not very certain that you can have "active" content in a PDF, that is, content which is not "baked" into the PDF but is rather an embedded HTTP request (gaining an ad view every time its open... or even on every page turn--if it's possible at all, why not go for maximal ad views?). If you can find a way to do this, PLEASE let us know--it would be perfect for shotGLASS--hell, I might go all-free PDFs, too, if it works.

But my understanding is that PDF is intentionally non-volatile, because its meant to be a format for electronic "documentation of record." It kind of flies in the face of the PDF concept, to have it contain variable, active, embedded content.

But I'd love to be proven wrong! I'll ask the FrameUsers list; there's some geniuses on that list....
David

yeah, I will do some digging around on the topic as well.

The ability to stick a randomly generated ad on some or all pages of a PDF that is freely distributed would indeed be awesome. Heck, even games that are not freely distributed, the ability to have an ad spot or two and keep it fresh with whatever products or promotions we might have going at the moment would be awesome too.

Ryan S. Johnson
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
http://www.guildofblades.com
http://www.1483online.com
http://www.thermopylae-online.com

I had, in another thread, an idea about a pamphlet-game being distributed at conventions. This game would be free and printed on cheap ass paper but would contain ads from companies that would be interested in getting some direct contact with our specific customer group (ie geeks). The problem is of course that unless you have a capital to take from (which I don’t) you can't print the first issue of the pamphlet-game as a loss to show its effectiveness and there are some problems with proving the ads effectiveness to the customers (the companies who would put their ads in it in this case).

The big issue is how you would get in contact with these companies that would place the ads there, explain that its not some random internet-ad thing since this has a more continuing effect on the readers (unlike internet ads that, to be honest few of us even remember seconds after we've seen them) and how you could make these companies take a risk with your game... I guess all that’s needed are some contacts or some damn fine sales pitching.

I love the concept. Just didn't know it was possible.

But my understanding is that PDF is intentionally non-volatile, because its meant to be a format for electronic "documentation of record." It kind of flies in the face of the PDF concept, to have it contain variable, active, embedded content.

Between early 2002 and the end of 2004 we gave away a very large number of our Worlds of Heroes & Tyrants free PDF. I would have to dig around again for the exact numbers, but it was simply an experiment to show us the potential power of distribution via give aways on the internet. In that time, we gave away well more than 1 million copies. If memory serves, it may have surpassed 2 million, but I honestly don't remember the exact figure.

The power of the internet is the potential free flow of information. A million or ten million (or whatever) copies of something can be given away for pennies. Compared to a dollar per CD, that seems a great deal more attractive. I would think any ad supported CD give away would have to go that extra mile and drive the CD stamping cost down through volume. 10,000 or more CDs to get that price down into the $.25 range. But unless I could target those at extremely focused groups, seems to me online distribution has both the broader reach and almost no cost.

Ryan S. Johnson
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
http://www.guildofblades.com
http://www.1483online.com
http://www.thermopylae-online.com

Oh for sure, but as far as a say you running demos at cons, and having everyone that participates get a cd or something, not to bad as a method to getting the word out. Your main focus would be funneling people to the online content, as well as those dedicated fans who will still purchase a hard copy.
Regards, Seth

Why use PDF?  Why not use an html file which can contain a link to a banner ad easily?  And why make people download the file individually? Why not just host it at a single location?

In other words, why not just have a website?

Aside from the obvious problem (can't get online = can't read game rules), HTML/website/wiki is actually a solid idea. Further, after asking at FrameUsers, it seems there's no real way to do an embedded ad revolver in a PDF to get unique IP views. The best anyone could come up with is some chain of Flash animation embed calling your site's revolver, which would mean (if I understood correctly) that the requests all come from your server (i.e. not good for revenue).

Too bad, really....
David

  Hello folks I did not forget about this thread or idea and have been looking around myself. PDF’s are out of the question though I did locate a new file type http://www.dnaml.com/ which offers some nice looking product. The software is a bit on the costly end, though it is quite flexible. It appears to use a document format that communicates with the web to display certain features. There is a version of the software that can be used to create versions of these files that can from the creators control panel on their desktop update people pdfs, apparently from a single copy of the file to a group, or all at once allowing you to personalize content. I am going to look into this a bit more before I consider a purchase as it has a hefty price tag of $1500.
  I might just purchase the product if I find it is capable of what I want done and set something up where I would create the files for other people to host there ads through for a couple bucks. Creating the formats and charging a bit of a fee would allow people to save on the 1,500 price tag and let myself (if I purchase the product) lick my wounds from the purchase, after all some one has to pay the price. I will update when I get some more info, until then see you all later.

Regards, Seth

Seth, that sounds REALLY interesting...

My only concern (so far) is the "internal DRM and payment gateway combination"--on the one hand, the try before buy is cool; but I'd want to know if there is a middleman network for that (or if I host it myself) and who runs that network and how reliable and permanent they are/will be. Look closely under the hood before you drop that kind of cash (which is barely less than the whole Adobe Creative Suite 3 Design Premium!).

My only concern (so far) is the "internal DRM and payment gateway combination"--on the one hand, the try before buy is cool; but I'd want to know if there is a middleman network for that (or if I host it myself) and who runs that network and how reliable and permanent they are/will be.

Look closely under the hood before you drop that kind of cash (which is barely less than the whole Adobe Creative Suite 3 Design Premium!).

Let us know when you get it all setup--if it's soon enough for GLASS, you might change my entire distribution model and one of my revenue channels.

Thanks;
David

Are we 100% sure the ads can't be imbedded into PDF files.

I've talked to a couple of folks who seem sure it can be done, though I lack the knowledge how to myself. Couldn't find anything else on the internet about post distributed ads in PDFs though.

Ryan S. Johnson
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
http://www.guildofblades.com
http://www.1483online.com
http://www.thermopylae-online.com

Well, sure, you can embed an ad prior to distillation; you can put nearly any kind of image or text content in at that point.

The issue is whether it's *active* content which changes each time the book is opened (or each page turn!) while there's an internet connection. The idea is to actually generate revenue from ad views and click-throughs from unique IPs. Ad revolvers pay for unique IP ad views; otherwise, someone could setup a script on a server which just pinged ads over and over again, and accumulate huge income for "nothing." That's the "problem" with doing the Distillation server-side, on the fly, pulling in a "fresh" ad each time someone buys the PDF: the server will still be a single IP address, and thus worth little to nothing in terms of revolver payments.

Of course... this brings back the question of "Why not just make it normal HTML, online only?" OK, sure, you can do that (trivially) but it's not *quite* like having a PDF; for example, you don't have total control over presentation, with HTML, due to browser customizations or individual style sheet overrides. And there's no offline viewing (which, yeah, wouldn't generate revenue; but that wouldn't be very often, I'd think, in this day of ubiquitous Internet connections and wireless everywhere).

Anyhow... if someone can figure a way to do it within PDF, I'm all ears. But this other thing being discussed (DNL) seems to be hot for not only active content (ads) but for constant updating (revisions, bonus content) and for follow-on sales (try before buy; supplements updated straight into the PDF). It sounds really, really great for small publishers seeking new revenue channels.

David

I guess the question becomes can anyone open and use a DNL formatted file without any need of an additional piece of software?

One of the reasons PDF is so accepted now is its got adobe behind pushing the free PDF viewers and its got several years of traction in the market place.

Well, just talked with our programmer again about this issue and he's going to take a fresh look at actively trying to serve ads into a PDF. From what I have seen there seems to be options at putting active javascript into a PDF, which should in theory enable us to load in an HTML or PHP file which is the host to the script that serves the image. That should enable the rich media ad to both detect the unique IP address and show the ad as being served from a specific domain, which is often also a limiting factor when serving ads. Ads tend to need to be served from approved root domains.

Alternatively, my programmer assures me we can make downloadable self contained .msi or .exe programs that open, formatted with a print ready html layout, which then can contain the ads. So that might another option we might pursue, but PDFs would still be better.

Ryan S. Johnson
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
http://www.guildofblades.com
http://www.1483online.com
http://www.thermopylae-online.com

  DNL does offer its viewer for free as a download, and from what I have heard their software also tends to save files in a very small format as well.

  Right now my only problem I am having with the idea is that while I have been in communication with the company and they have answered every question I have had thus far they skirt the issue of licensing every time it is brought up. Right now we are going to try and actually get our main site up and running at which point we are hoping Dnaml actually being able to see our design might get them onboard.
  If we can not get Dnaml to allow us to license online control panel versions of their software, we are looking at our only option being to create, or obtain a variant of the software. I would say given we at the moment do not entirely have the technical skill, nor connections to attempt such a daring task as backwards engineering their software, this project may be a long term goal.
  I need to think and plan out more strongly what we are going to do as either path will require a great investment of time and money. Once I have more information on our plans I will certainly hit every one back on the status. I would also be interested in discussing alternatives to the issue, and anything else related.
Regards, Seth

Well, I know that a program can be written. A .exe or .msi. Our 1483 Online software thats running right now was coded in Visual basic and uses .Net technology for the online elments. When players are in the program the program simply imports the IE browser inside itself and we can display web pages. When a player is playing the game and moves from the web pages portion to the map function, the map is done in VB and shoved into a partial screen "container" and then the advertisement and graphics are left to run in a browser container.

We could just as easily make a VB program that puts a PDF into the primary container, which can then scroll, then use top and bottom smaller contains to shove browser features and our web ads. We could make the PDF pages in the central container to be formatted to be print ready to a normal sheet size. But I think the problem with this approach would be the primary container would both scroll down and right within the screen for viewing online, which would be less than ideal for online display.

Now, perhaps a better option would simply be to make a HTML version of the content that displays through a simple VB program run through a .exe and see if there is a means where we can give the user to use the program to export a printable PDF. They'll be sure to read most of it in an online version before moving to export a printable PDF. I could lock the text on the PDF too to make the html view have more utility value even after export. Hm.

Ryan S. Johnson
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
http://www.guildofblades.com
http://www.1483online.com
http://www.thermopylae-online.com