Hi all,

Any ideas on how to make this more streamlined and playable? I always hated regular initiative systems where one person runs across the room and attacks while time freezes for everyone else until its their turn. I have been attempting to make a time-phased or action ordering system but it seems from limited playtesting that it slows down the game too much. Here's the guts-

A number, called Delay is calculated after every action and added to your Time which is when your next action goes. Baically, 1 Time Unit = 1/2 a second. The Delay is calculated as 13 + action cost - (dex+D6).

Reasoning for the formula for calculating Delay(some assumptions);

-A combat round is 3 seconds or 6 time units hence the d6.
-Normally, 1 action per round so using the d6 determines when in the round the action goes.
-Movement is done on a incremental basis with the referee calling out 1, 2, 3...etc. All combatants may move a number of squares for that phase(the number called out loud by the referee) based on their speed and is listed on the character sheet like-

P M
1 2
2 1
3 2
4 1
5 2
6 1

Where column P is the phase count and M is the number of movement points available for spending on movement for the phase.

To simplify for understanding, say you roll a d6 to determine when your non-movement action takes place(ie: next attack). Then you get to spend points each phase on movement. Thus you no longer have to "stand still" while someone crosses 60 feet of ground and attacks you or pulls the lever...ect.

If your un-engaged in melee then you attack when you move close enough to strike your target(ie: 2" for a spear)-the phase you move into range is when your attack happens.

It also enriches the vision of the scene..."Tor: I draw my sword and it will be out on phase 3. Ork-charges Tor with ready spear and is 4 squares away = phase 1 ork moves 2 squares, Tor backpeddles 1 distance is 3 squares...phase 2 ork moves 1square, tor up against wall so distance is 2 so the ork attacks Tor before Tor can pull his blade out to help defend himself with it. Or the "Do I come to the rescue in time?" question or do I pull the lever to let the gate drop down in time? Or even, do I run out and slam the door before the dragon breathes on me?

One thing I thought of as a derivitive is to use "normalized numbers". Normalizing to setting everything to decimal(in this system). EX: it takes 6 aciton points to attack and I have a speed of 9 so my initiative is 6/9 or .67. Urf the Ogre has 6 and his attack costs him 5 or 5/6 which is .83 therefore I attack before Urf. Movement would be coordinated the same way. I have a movement of 5 then each square I move costs me .20 initiative points...

Im writing this at 12:30 so I may have written this well.

What do you think or does it need clairification?

Thanks all,
Dave

Ok, I actually had a diatribe written up, and then I reread your first sentence. There are a few things that I would suggest to make this system more usable:

1) Enforce timing. Call out numbers in three second intervals,and if the player doesn't respond in their turn, keep going. This will help stop the Starfleet Battles problem of (less than) one-second impulses taking five minutes to resolve. You can make exceptions to this for self-defense, unless you really want to use Paranoia's "Dramatic Combat System."

2) Precalaculate as much as possible. Before you drop into combat time, know all of those decimals. PC's in this sort of game probably will anyway - put it on the character sheet, if nothing else.

3) Only drop into impulse-driven combat time when it's absolutely necessary.

Hi Giblin,

Welcome to the Forge.

"Initiative" is one of those topics that gets ahead of itself in game design. Many RPGs have worked well without it, or at least without a special roll or other determinant.

You might be interested in this material, which I mentioned in my essay and then got developed in this thread:
The four steps of action

It's been discussed further elsewhere as well.

Best,
Ron

Hey Dave,

giblin wrote: Any ideas on how to make this more streamlined and playable?

giblin wrote: I always hated regular initiative systems where one person runs across the room and attacks while time freezes for everyone else until its their turn. I have been attempting to make a time-phased or action ordering system but it seems from limited playtesting that it slows down the game too much.

...calculated after every action and added...

...is done on a incremental basis

...calling out 1, 2, 3...

...points available for spending...

To simplify for understanding, say you roll a d6...

...you get to spend points each phase...

It also enriches the vision of the scene...

giblin wrote: One thing I thought of as a derivitive is to use "normalized numbers".

Back a few years ago I was working on a game called The Keys of Solomon which had a similar system for combat. In KOS each round consisted of 60 seconds which was then broken down into action phases. Each Phase filled a varaiable time frame based on the character's initiative roll. For example, one character may get 5 action phases per round in which case each phase would be 12 seconds. Another, faster, character might get 20 Action Phases of 3 seconds each. All the action would take place at the same time, jut at different speeds. Actually working through a combat round was very difficult to explain in writing which eventually led to the system dieing, but your idea kind of reminded me of it.

I'm not sure if that answers you question, but maybe it will give you something to think about.

you can find the rules here
http://www.angelfire.com/games3/errantknight/keys.html

,Matt G.

Hi Dave, and welcome.

Your mechanism reminds me of the way most computer simulations work: advance time in small increments, and for each component of the system (in this case, each character), determine what happens during each increment. Of course, computers are really good at updating multiple calcuations quicky. As for people, that isn't usually their strong point.

If you've decided that you want combat resolution to work this way, then your problem isn't so much game design as it is efficient execution of the system in play. You have to think like an industrial time-and-motion efficiency expert.

To start with, settle on one single time unit and stick with it. If intervals between actions are specified in action points, and characters have different numbers of action points per round based on their speed, and a round is so many time ticks, convert that all to ticks (rounded to integers) beforehand. During the combat, the players must have in hand how long each action takes in ticks. If there's a die roll involved, then the base number of ticks without the die roll should be known beforehand, and the die roll should add ticks to the time, otherwise new calculations would have to be done every action.

Next, make all ticks equal. Since you know how long each action takes in ticks, there's no need to count rounds, and there's no need to count which tick you're at within a round. Get rid of that move 2 on phase 1, move 1 on phase 2, etc. thing for movement. Instead, determine in advance a movement per tick for each character, and allow that to be a fraction. You're using miniatures (or else this would all be quite unmanageable), so just do the movement according to the scale distance per tick. Physical templates, like a popsicle stick marked or cut to the length of a character's scale movement per tick, can help. (Avoid using rulers; they're too long and too hard to read quickly.)

By the way, make sure all the miniatures are on firm bases that stand easily. Having to delicately re-balance a miniature on its teeny tiny molded-in pewter base every time someone touches it will slow things down intolerably. Also, make sure everyone, especially you, can easily reach all parts of the field. You probably can't do that sitting behind a screen. Stand up (or even use a separate miniatures table of standing height) if necessary. Oops, can't see your notes or the tables on the screen while you're standing so you can reach the miniatures? That's a problem. Solve it.

Now, to speed up the movement handling, give each character a destination marker. (Color-coding to the miniatures' bases can be helpful). These are placed on the miniatures playing field. Characters move toward their marked destinations unless blocked. The destination mark cannot be changed during a tick. It can be changed freely between ticks. This cuts down on indecision delays during a tick, by making the movement during the tick truly simultaneous. (A character's destination mark can be placed on another character's base, indicating that the character intends to close in on or pursue that character.)

Poker chips. The object is to cut down on the need to store and recall information, especially numbers, in short-term memory during play. When a character is required to spend some number of ticks in recovery, during which movement is disallowed or reduced, plunk down a pile of that many chips next to the miniature (or, if that space is too crowded, in front of the player). That character's player will remove one chip per tick until the recovery is done. Same procedure if you're counting up prep time, such as when a character has to stand in place for some number of ticks until a spell or fired missile goes off.

The goal here is that on every tick except those during which an action such as an attack is being resolved, each player should be able to resolve their movement or waiting or preparation actions in three or four seconds of real time, all at once. The GM, when controlling many characters, will take longer, but if he uses destination markers or otherwise clearly states what the NPCs are doing ("they all charge directly toward you") then the players can help with this task.

Resolution of actions involving success rolls, effects rolls, determination of the recovery time (and placing the chips), and so forth will take longer, of course. But these are the procedures you'd be doing one at a time in any case, and for this style of play they're the interesting part, so that shouldn't be a problem.

Finally, practice practice practice.

This isn't my favorite way to play, but if you're going to do it, concentrate on making the execution of the system a model of efficiency that even the computer would envy.

- Walt

First, see TROS.

The other solution to Fang's dilemma of taking turns is to have everyone go at the same time. This is a much better way of simulating what happens in combat than any turn based resolution. One really positive effect is that it allows the idea of skill to be put into initiative, which is by far the most important thing in RL initiative.

How do you do this? Simply make all combat exchanges a contested roll between the combatants in question. Winner gets his result. This goes for movement as well. Want to beat someone to the gate? Roll their running vs yours. This is cool because it introduces the RL element of randomness to movement. And nobody "whiffs", they just aren't always the one to hit. Something is always happening.

The only concern is the rate of progress of combats that are outside of each other (I try to finish Bob quick so that I can also join the race to the gate). But there are subtle ways around that as well. Make the player rushing to finish take some number of penalties to do so based on the running player's successes modified reasonable for the distances in question. This is a great way to make combats dramatic.

It's all in the currency. See Zenobia for a free example of this solution in action.

Mike

Mike Holmes wrote: The other solution to Fang's dilemma of taking turns is to have everyone go at the same time. This is a much better way of simulating what happens in combat than any turn-based resolution.

Le Joueur wrote: The 'everyone handles their own rules' example was meant to be exactly an 'everyone goes simultaneously' practice. Simply having everyone go at the same time becomes cacophonous in anything but the smallest groups, so you'll have to deal with that.

Mike Holmes wrote: The difference is that I am not advocating getting rid of turns. You still do turns, and each character only gets one declared intent in each turn. You just roll everything simultaneously, and apply the results.

First, see TROS.

The other solution to Fang's dilemma of taking turns is to have everyone go at the same time. This is a much better way of simulating what happens in combat than any turn based resolution. One really positive effect is that it allows the idea of skill to be put into initiative, which is by far the most important thing in RL initiative.

How do you do this? Simply make all combat exchanges a contested roll between the combatants in question. Winner gets his result. This goes for movement as well. Want to beat someone to the gate? Roll their running vs yours. This is cool because it introduces the RL element of randomness to movement. And nobody "whiffs", they just aren't always the one to hit. Something is always happening.

2) Precalaculate as much as possible. Before you drop into combat time, know all of those decimals. PC's in this sort of game probably will anyway - put it on the character sheet, if nothing else.

I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing in your mind, but it's beginning to sound like you're building a wargame, not a role-playing game. If so, there are several wargames out there that you may want to look at and see how they handle the questions you're asking. If not, you may want to step back and see if you really want/need to have this much detail in your game.

Does anyone else remember a game called "Phoenix Command," or something like that? IIRC, it was a role-playing game that went to an incredible level of realistic probability, including chances for death by hydrostatic shock for various weapons at various ranges in various hit locations.

Mark, I have a friend who loves Phoenix Command. He and his groups are playing all sorts of different campaigns with that combat system.
Personally I feel having a root canal would be more fun, but people are different. Anyway, I feel it's a nice call to mention that game.

Dave, are you familiar with Phoenix Command? If not it might be worth looking into. It's out of print but I'm sure someone here could lay out the basic rules for you.

(Incidentally my friend swears it doesn't need to be very slow. Of course they are used to quick scirmishes in Rolemaster which takes *groan* around 2 hour on average - I know from experience)

How would you, in TROS, a dragon breathing fire and you want to see if you make it thru the door and close it before he nails you? Would it be like the roll-off example with breath fire skill vs running I take it? Same would go for any missle fire right? This works great when there's only 1 on each side but when you need to know how far or where every combatant is at when something happens this system isn't a solution...unless there's some way to normalize the initiative(skill) rolls in timing contests??