Hey Cats,

I posted companion threads about this on Story Games and Knife Fight:
http://www.story-games.com/forums/comments.php?DiscussionID=5050
http://www.i-would-knife-fight-a-man.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2862

I'm attempting to make a relationship map of game design influences, which I think it would also be really helpful at getting the lay of the land as far as design goes.

For each game you have in a published or finished form (your call), list the games (in no particular order) which you feel have had significant influence on it. For most folks, these would be the games you credit somewhere in the text. And try not to have more than 5 credits per game, though do it if you have to.

With the results, I'm going to try to create a Network Diagram that shows how each game is related to every other game.

Crediting unfinished or unpublished works is fine, but don't just credit "this thing Ben Lehman said one time." I can't really graph that.

Thanks!

Hm. Interesting topic.

Well, we have a goodly number of games in print, so I'll try where I am able to draw comparisons. Though this is not strictly limited to RPGs.

Empires of History board games.
The first game in tis series, the War to End All Wars began life marketed as an Axis & Allies variant, so A&A had its influence to be sure. So did World in Flames, which we drew a handful of neat concepts from. Then, of course, there were a series of other games which influenced us by way of us NOT wanting to be anything like them. After that first game release though, the rest of the games in the series have only drawn inspiration from previous games in the same series and not outside sources.

Dark Realms Role Playing Universe
The original dark realms system was designed to be somewhat like D&D with classes, levels, etc. You know, old school stuff. lol. But it was very specifically designed to be the complete opposite from D&D when it came to magic and skills.

Overlords: Fantasy Battlescape Wargame
As a Titan variant, this one obviously drew inspiration from Titan.

Worlds of Heroes & Tyrants Fantasy Quest Game
This was pegged as a Talisman variant, so...

Button Wars: Tactical Spaceship Combat Game.
Well, game play and rules wise, this puppy was unique. But "packaging" wise, it drew its inspiration from a combination of Disk Wars and Button Men.

Really, though, these days I don't worry about what other people are doing. I try not to emulate others or copy from them. When designing a game, I merely consider what the game is suppose to be like, then set about making the cleanest, easiest to utilize rules to capture that feel. Less rules and less complicated is generally better.

Ryan S. Johnson
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
http://www.guildofblades.com
http://www.1483online.com
http://www.thermopylae-online.com

I happened to arrive early in this thread; I also happen to pretty much pre-date most of what I think you want--but I'll give some input anyway.  Multiverser is the game I have in print; others are still in development or waiting for a decent time to release them.

Advanced Dungeons & Dragons was the single largest influence on my thinking. I had spent literally years analyzing its concepts in detail.  Mechanically we went an entirely different direction on nearly every point, but there are a lot of structural similarities between the games.  The alignment system influenced my own thinking on supernatural realms, and the comprehensive effort to cover everything was also significant.  In some places, I made direct reference back to the OAD&D books to make certain that anything they covered, we covered in some way.

I suspect that Star Frontiers was also significantly influential in my thinking. Its rare supplement, Zebulon's Guide to the Galaxy, contained a single-roll hit and damage system; there's was rather complex, requiring reference to the charts in the book to make it work, and I found a way to simplify it and in the process enhance the value of skill, particularly in combat.  This was also the first skill-based game I'd played, and to some degree influenced my thinking on how to make skill-based success systems.

I'm sure there were other games I'd played or never played that had an influence on me, and of course I was partnered with E. R. Jones, whose familiarity with the RPG world at that time (mid eighties through mid nineties) was far more comprehensive than mine.  I suspect that some of the mechanics were derivative, but I never knew the source.

I also often wonder whether what we did had much influence on what anyone else did, coming out in 1997 as we did.

--M. J. Young

MJ, isolated little pockets of games will also be really interesting to graph, I think.  Like, it'll show sections of indie games that aren't as prominent in certain circles because they aren't as tied into whatever the central hubs of the post-2000 indie games scene are (I'm guessing Sorcerer, Dust Devils, MLWM, Dogs, Polaris, but we'll see).  One of my goals for this project is show that the indie games community, design wise and diversity-wise, may or may not conform to people's expectations.  So, yes, your input is most welcome.

Jonathan wrote:
MJ, isolated little pockets of games will also be really interesting to graph, I think.  Like, it'll show sections of indie games that aren't as prominent in certain circles because they aren't as tied into whatever the central hubs of the post-2000 indie games scene are (I'm guessing Sorcerer, Dust Devils, MLWM, Dogs, Polaris, but we'll see).  One of my goals for this project is show that the indie games community, design wise and diversity-wise, may or may not conform to people's expectations.  So, yes, your input is most welcome.

This is a most interesting project, Jonathan! Be sure to keep us apprised of your progress, and tell me if you need help; this is something I've been thinking of doing myself just for curiousity, so I don't want you to forget this. My approach would have probably been more scholarly, reading through the credits of a lots of books, but of course you'll get better results by asking directly.

Then, onwards:

Zombies at the Door!, my most serious published game to date:
The Mountain Witch was a direct mechanical inspiration, as well as a direct design challenge that inspired the game.
Primetime Adventures is a secondary example of the player-paced drama arc phenomenon that inspired the game. Both of these were explicitly on my mind when I designed.
I would dearly love to list Sorcerer, My Life with Master and Dust Devils, too, but they're really more like inspirations for my design in general, not for this particular project in any concrete manner I would have thought of when designing. They could well be listed for anything I'll ever do.

Minor projects that probably aren't worth mapping (unless you want to have small bud-nodes to decorate the more influential games), but that have either been published (in minor publications) or are almost finished (but not quite):
Merchants of Love - an early design from -04, based on MLwM.
The Christmas Game - long in development, inspired by MLwM.
Eleanor's Dream - my current primary project, influenced by Polaris, MLwM and Multiverser.

Here's a map of all the data I gathered through posting.  I'm eventually going to comb through my collection too.

It'd be great if you could color the nodes to distinguish between games you asked about and games that were just referenced in the answers. Perhaps the map would also be more informative if you put the former in the middle and the latter on the edges, so as to separate "outside influences" from the games that were your direct material. I wouldn't also mind if the nodes were larger for the games with more referrals, to increase visual information. Of course, all that all but requires doing the graph by hand.

Other than the nitpicking, good job! If you put up the original data as well when you finish your research, others can take a stab at doing graphs and other graphics from it, too.

Hi,

Interesting project. I spent a good fifteen minutes clicking on nodes, browsing through relationships, and found it enjoyable. But what is this map good for?

Thanx,

Peter

Charles also made <a href="http://services.alphaworks.ibm.com/manyeyes/view/SGo7oKsOtha6z9-oZCrpK2-">this map, ranking the most influential games and tagging them with the games they influenced. Solves some issues I was worrying about.

Some things I wish I could include:
- more data, some of which is coming
- having the hubs only get larger due to ties TO them, instead of also including ties FROM them (like Charles' map)
- color coding hubs and connections
- dates of publication

Jonathan wrote:
Here's a map of all the data I gathered through posting.

Peter wrote: Interesting project. I spent a good fifteen minutes clicking on nodes, browsing through relationships, and found it enjoyable. But what is this map good for?

Jonathan wrote: <a href="http://services.alphaworks.ibm.com/manyeyes/view/SGo7oKsOtha6z9-oZCrpK2-">this map, ranking the most influential games and tagging them with the games they influenced.

- color coding hubs and connections
- dates of publication

Jonathan,

My biggest influences have been:

For Donjon:
Basic D&D
Sorcerer
The Pool

For The Shadow of Yesterday:
D&D 3rd Edition
Sorcerer
The Riddle of Steel
Orkworld
Hero Wars
(I know I left Fudge off, but it wasn't a major influence, really.)

For The Princes' Kingdom:
Dogs in the Vineyard
The Way

For Inuma:
Everway
Story Engine
Primetime Adventures

Sorcerer
Maelstrom / Story Engine
Cyberpunk
Zero
Over the Edge
The Fantasy Trip

Elfs
Dungeons & Dragons
Paranoia

Trollbabe
Everway
Prince Valiant
Dust Devils
The Dying Earth
Hero Wars

It Was a Mutual Decision
Bacchanal
Breaking the Ice

Added new data from Ron, Clinton, Matt Wilson, Joshua Newman, Fred, and Jeph.

New maps:
http://services.alphaworks.ibm.com/manyeyes/view/SGo7oKsOtha6t8EpSXhpK2-  (hit the REDRAW button!)
http://services.alphaworks.ibm.com/manyeyes/view/SGo7oKsOtha6z9-oZCrpK2-

Would really like data from:

- Jared (InSpectres, octaNe, Lacuna, Le Mon Mouri)
- Vincent (Otherkind, In a Wicked Age, Hungry Desperate & Alone)
- Luke (Burning Wheel, Burning Empires)
- Tim (Mountain Witch, Mexican Standoff)
- Keith (Conspiracy of Shadows, untitled)
- Paul (Bacchanal, WF&D)
- John Tynes (Risus, Puppetland)
- Emily (Breaking the Ice)
- Chad (Dead Inside)
- Brennan (Mortal Coil)
- Nathan Paoletta (Carry)
- Ron (Spione)
- James Wallis (Munchausen)
- Rebecca Borgstrom (Nobilis)
- Daniel Bayn (Wushu)
- Mark Smylie (Artesia)

This would help better position games that are already on the graph.

Hello,

Spione
Primetime Adventures
Universalis
Accordion (solitaire card game)
Legends of Allyria

Also, le mon mouri was written by Sean Demory. Jared merely hosted it on his site.

A tricky part of the project is that a games in design can have a big impact, even if they are never finished. My drafts for Fantasy for Real, Mongrel, and Black Fire were pretty influential; I`m not sure whether unpublished/unfinished work is eligible though.

Best, Ron

Hey Ron,

Thanks for the data and notes.

My original instinct was to get the authors of finished/published games to talk about their chief influences and then, in turn, track those down to get the influences on those works.  So, for example, Otherkind was mentioned twice as an influence, even though it was never formally finished or published (though it was available on Vincent's website), so I was going to get Vincent's influences for that, to tie it in better.  So far, no one's mentioned Fantasy For Real, Mongrel, or Black Fire, so I didn't think to ask you about those.  Now, it may be that people don't immediately think of them the way they think of, say, Polaris, because they never got released as spiffy looking products.  I'm not sure how to control for that, honestly.  But if you want me to plug those games into the chart to see where they fit in and flesh things out a bit more, we could do that.

Honestly, I view these charts as general sketches of relationships.  In the future, I may try to come back and do a more formal chart with more professional standards for data gathering, like an actual survey with real instructions, allowing folks to rank the amount of influence, allowing authors to code/tag their games in various ways, etc.  But honestly I don't really have the training or time to do that kind of data gathering, crunching, or graphing right now.  Maybe once I start grad school.  So I'm not inclined, at least at present, to spend too much time fine tuning this until it's really perfect.  I don't think the quality of the data would really let me do that.  Maybe next time, though, or maybe this amateur project can inspire someone else to do a better job.

Does that make sense?

It makes perfect sense, Jonathan, and I`m completely sympathetic to a coarse-focus-first approach. Maybe my post will lead some folks to think about drafts that influenced them as well - never mind mine particularly, just as a concept in general, because I do think we all have a tendency to forget about them.

Best, Ron

Otherkind (May 2002, draft)
Tim Denee's Our Frustration (nee Punk)
Paul Czege's The World, the Flesh, and the Devil
Ron Edwards' Elfs
Ars Magica

In a Wicked Age (to be published)
Ron Edwards' Sorcerer, especially Sorcerer & Sword
Ron Edwards' Trollbabe
Matt Wilson's Primetime Adventures
The Dying Earth rpg
My own Cheap & Cheesy Fantasy Game

Hungry, Desperate & Alone (Jan 2002, draft)
Scott Knipe's Lapdogs
...Damn, I can't remember what else. The threads here on the Forge aren't helping me. Anybody who was there remember where the fashion for rules like "every time you and the NPC are apart, roll dice equal to your Intimacy, minus the NPC's Pain.  On a success, the NPC has a sudden terrible realization about you and gets +1 Horror" came from?

-Vincent

Add Zak Arntson's Metal Opera and Jared Sorensen's InSpectres to Otherkind.

In a Wicked Age's list will grow, grow, grow, when I sit down and compile it for real.

-Vincent

lumpley wrote:
Hungry, Desperate & Alone (Jan 2002, draft)
Scott Knipe's Lapdogs
...Damn, I can't remember what else. The threads here on the Forge aren't helping me. Anybody who was there remember where the fashion for rules like "every time you and the NPC are apart, roll dice equal to your Intimacy, minus the NPC's Pain.  On a success, the NPC has a sudden terrible realization about you and gets +1 Horror" came from?

Yeah, Nev, but Hungry inspired MLWM, that's why.

How published is published?

Here are some of my games from the Nørwegian Style blog (and Lulu). They're mostly available for free download; Zombieporno is available for sale.

Archipelago
- Dirty Secrets
- Until we Sink
- Earthsea (unfinished draft)
- Prime Time Adventures
- (Keith Johnstone, but you want games, right?)

Zombieporno
- Downtown (unpublished draft)
- Contenders
- Dogs in the Vineyard
- My Life with Master
- Alien Porn (unfinished draft)

Star Moss
- Muu

Fruit hangs heavy
- Prime Time Adventures
- Until we Sink
- Will the Emperor Fall? (unfinished draft)

A Trip to the Moon
- Muu

Charles the Bald is Superf****d
- Scissors, paper, stone
- Dogs in the Vineyard
- Capes

Hi Jonathan,

Another quick note/correction: Puppetland was written by John Tynes as you said, but Risus was written by S. John Ross.

Best, Ron

Thanks, Ron.  Too many Johns in this industry.

Eero wrote: Eleanor's Dream - my current primary project, influenced by Polaris, MLwM and Multiverser.

I'm kinda surprised that Multiverser hasn't made an impression on more people (that I know of, I mean). Sure, it's weird, extreme and "bigoted" in its own charming way, and difficult to play, but the vision is very unique and compelling, at least to me, and the effort and attention to detail is astounding. Many people have frustration dreams about playing Burning Wheel, Riddle of Steel or Sorcerer, as they feel trapped by the strenuous requirements of the game that go over their personal means, while they would strongly desire to play; I have those attacks whenever I happen to consider playing Multiverser, which would be truly magnificent if I wasn't overwhelmed by the heavy rules system and the social requirements of keeping a group together long enough for the emergent campaign arc to form. I didn't actually think about the Multiverser influence for a long time when I started doing Eleanor, but later on I found it obvious in many ways:

• While "playing yourself" in a roleplaying game comes up now and then in different games, Eleanor's reasoning for why it is done, and how it is done, comes from Multiverser.
• Having a multitude of intricately prepared settings where the character comes and goes as an outsider who need not fear death is... well, yes.
• I can't say if this is influence, but looking at it in retrospective, both Multiverser and Eleanor concern themselves with character growth, presumably towards maturity. Eleanor is a bit more outspoken about it, of course.

The Multiverser influence is pretty obvious when I say that for the longest time I thought that Eleanor was going to be a simulationistic game, just because Multiverser had stricken me so strongly in that regard. The mechanical approach is completely opposite (as I mentioned, I can't swallow Multiverser's mechanics, and I doubt my 8-year old target audience could either), but in spirit Multiverser is the closest influence for Eleanor's Dream, I think.

As for when Eleanor's going to be finished, let's put it this way: if I lived in the US, it would have been at the Ashcan Front at Gencon. I haven't actually worked on the game this year (did my small zombie game instead), but the break has done it good; I'm pretty positive that whenever I get around to a solid stretch of work, especially with my artist backing me, the game will be done then. Next year for certain, assuming my game design bug doesn't lay down and die. After that it's a matter of motivation and whatnot when I might get the game translated for the English market - I've been making it mostly with the Finnish audience in mind, so I haven't worried about anything further yet.