Ok, maybe this idea is already thought up but in my defence I don't know if it is... :)

Ok the thought I had was that I wanted a system that demanded something from the players and that could be objective. So I thought why not make a magic system where the player of the mage has to make a poem about what he wanted to do. Say that the character wants to throw a lightningbolt or something on someone else. Then that player had to make a quick poem describing what he wanted to do magicwise instead of the player defining what he wants to have done directly to the GM. The poem has to be a rhyme or an alliteration maybe... and the GM only reacts to that. If the player succeeds with some roll the GM will describe what is happening based on the wishes he has learned from the players poem.

Now add to that that all mage's has a set of powerwords. Words that the character has trained in, formed in his mind into specifics. It can be anything "tree", "lightning", "and"... the amount of individual powerwords in the players/characters poem sets the level of effect of the spell. The amount of lines needed to describe the effect wanted sets the cost in magicpoints or time or whatever is meaningful to the gameworld.

Set spells are poem that the player/character knows the effect of, he or she knows how the GM will think concerning the description in the poem and so the player can go back to those poems if he wants a similar effect (bot not exact since the situation the character is in may change the way the poem would describe the characters wishes)

The only barr against the player/character is that if the poem doesn't rhyme or the alitteration fails the spell fail but the points spent (the number of lines in the poem) thusfar is still drawn from the character.

The trick is, I think, to find rules that match the magic rules for everything else. You can't have players rapping the wishes of their characters beyond the mystical and grateful area of magic (where the system is kinda let loose). Plus I kinda have to figure out a world that would fit with the rules.... Maybe early 19th century fantasyesque? Poems, romantics and so on?

anywhoo... any ideas? Or have someone done this before? If so , what worked, what didn't? Or is the idea crap from birth? Any comment is a good comment :)

/J

Greetings,

I read your idea, and having seen things like this in action, I don't know if I'd favour it. In germany we have since long ago an RPG system called "Das Schwarze Auge" (I think an english version called "The Dark Eye" exists since last year). 20 years back - maybe a bit less, maybe a bit more, the spells in this system were little poems. And quite some of them sounded rather ridicolous. This might be a problem, when creating such system.

The spells might contradict the atmoshphere you try to achieve, because you have to rhyme them.

Let  lightning lash out at the tree
So that our enemies will flee.

This fireball is mighty hot
and survive it you will not....

and finally, to make it really painful:

Baleful demon, I conjure you
and bind you, like I tie my shoe (ouch!)

The question would probably be what kind fo atmosphere you're trying to achieve in a game. If you go for something fairy-tale like, these elements might be very beneficial. You can have very dark imagery right next to lighter tones, and poems would melt into the scene quite well. If you go for dark&gritty medieval stuff, there might be a problem. It can also be quite hard to judge the power of a spell correctly and create discrepancies in a group, if you happen to have a master rhymer. I don't know if a GM could then still control this. You probably need some other restriction to prevent things from getting out of hand.

I like the concepts and it certainly woudl also fit in with Tolkienesque stuff to.

To avoid the poor rhymes and the chnaces of abracadabra type spells, perhaps possible options shoudl be pre written so that the would have to be learnt or at leat read out and after the PC reached a certain level/skill they could start making them up, by which time they should have the idea of how tomake a decent one?

Laos perhaps they would not need to rhyme? They could work on aliteration as said or as in norse poems use kennings. As long as they sounded appropriate for setting of the game .

Best
JW

Yeah, I like the concept, too, and agree that pre-made spells might be the way to go, initially. (It will also give the players something to think of during class besides the lecture!) You might want to also consider defining a few conventions according to the spell level. Short, brief spells could be only a few words or few meters ("Be Tree") while more complex, lasting spells require at least a couplet or maybe even iambic pentameter! Hmmm. Maybe the poets of yesteryear were actually magicians, and you can have lines from Coleridge or TS Eliot as your initial spells?

Yes if you look at the actual dfeinitions of different types of "majic" users in Norse lands for example many refering to how the words used and what form. Mnay being to do with songs or rhym/poems, like and enchanter, chanting soem kind of metered selection of words. It definately has milage in the right settings.

JW

Hereward the wake:
Well if your going to go with the Norse thing (and considering I'm swedish as is my players meaning that Norse stuff is kinda corny to us (the norse thing is kinda highjacked by nationalists and silly reconstructionist live roleplayers here)) you should probably stick to alitterations like "bättre börda kan ingen bära än mycket mannamod" (tr. kinda like "better burden can not be carried than plenty of a mans courage") since the verseforms where so fucked up. (and sometimes highly illogical and fluctuating. Remember, these where pigfarmers)

Aya_Aschmar:
What if the skill level of the caster is the amount of power words (which where the measure of force in the spell - no power words bought from the beginning, no effect of the spell) he or she can use in a single spell. Plus the idea is that they have to be as precise as possible without being too long winded about it since that costs energy. (the number of lines being the amount of energy spent)
If someone is a freeform rapbattle enthusiast then, ok thats fine, since he or she will only be an asset to the game.

Gonna check out das Schwarze Auge even though my german is complete crap (beyond swearwords which I have some wierd tendency to pick up really quick ... or maybe not so wierd looking back at my post, you should hear me talk in swedish. I can make trees blush :))

Danielsan/Hereward/Aya:
I think that your right a few "beginners poems" to get the feel right would be great. The biggest problem is squeezing it into another system without the magic system being too central in the worldrules or the world rules to damn strange...

/J

rekyl /J,
This concept has great potential.  However, I don't think it will actually work unless you build the whole game around it.  What I mean is, it wouldn't work as a feature, some optional thing; it needs to be the core mechanic, such that "playing this game" by definition must contain "making extemporaneous poems to create effects."  Making all the characters magic-users could accomplish that, but that might not jibe with your design goals.  One possibility comes to mind that different arenas of conflict could require different kinds of poetry; haiku for sword techniques?  12-bar blues for social conflicts?  Limericks for picking locks, theft, and other skulduggery?  There's all kinds of great distinctions in rhyme, metre, and prosody that could be used, perhaps to distinguish Classes if not types of conflict.

Just a notion; I hope it's helpful!
-Marshall

I think it's a fantastic concept; singing or rhyming magic has a great heritage. The problem is coming up with good ones on the fly. I'd suggest that you specify the form in order to keep the standard up and help define the genre. For example, old anglo-saxon poetry (such as Beowulf) used only alliteration in couplets so if that's the kind of feel you want that form would help keep the word magics strong while for an oriental game you might demand Haiku complete with 5-7-5 syllabic pattern and seasonal reference.

Ultimately though, you are left with a choice of either ignoring the quality of the poem or strongly tying the effectiveness of the magic to the player's ability at poetic improvisation. Are either of those design directions you want?

After reading this thread, I raised the concept with my wife...who is a gamer and a long time researcher into wiccan traditions.

Her first response was...

"So he's creating a magic system that's based on magic...that's a novel idea."

V

I can see that the form of poem used would be important, especially as it would fit in with the world background, therefore helping develop the atmosphere and reinforcing the enviroment of the world and the different types of majic used using different forms.

I think that there needs to be a format that needs to used when creating the spell/poem.
- An object, to be used in the "spell"
- A target, the thing that the spell is being cast against
- An effect, what the user desires the spell to do.
- When its should happen
- How long it should last.
These are ones off the top my head. This combined with the form of the poem would give a better structure and make for better poems?

Best
Jonathan

Time to start buying DVDs of Charmed!

By the power of three, so mote it be!

Let's hope the players never have to cast a spell on something orange or silver.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visionaries:_Knights_of_the_Magical_Light

I guess I'm going to be a dissenting opinion, here. I don't think it's going to work too well with them making up poems *on the fly.* I was a Peer College Tutor of English for years when I was in school. Most English *Majors* were pretty bad at poetry. I wouldn't want to see what your average gamer came up with in order to stab the bad guy or cast a fireball. I could see giving bonuses for it, the same way some systems give bonuses to particularly interesting descriptions to actions. And I could see having pre-written spells (with poetry attached).

Otherwise, you're stuck with the GM being the subjective "grader" on how well the player did on his poem, and having a decent amount (I'd guess) of mood-breaking pseudo-poems that really aren't that good to begin with. Remember, an objective grading system on poetry has been sought for, and in vain, for about as long as people have been writing. Giving someone a -2 penalty for breaking rhyme/meter structure is one thing... but how do you grade emotional content, style, metaphor? On the fly, as a GM, running the game? This is to say nothing of Free Verse...

I'll admit, I'm probably just being a bit snobbish on my poetry.

For what it's worth...

-a-

Adam,

I think the solution to that problem is simple:  make it so that the "quality" of the poem doesn't matter.

That's what I'd do, at any rate.
-Marshall

I'll chime in now, though it may sound rough.
Verse on the fly isn't really that tough.
Grading the work is the job for a jerk.
Do as Burns say and pitch "quality" away.

Keep key words, keep line counts, note meter and rhyme.
Add one more small thing: have the group self-align.
Thumbs-up or thumbs-down, vote every round.
Let the margin be a bonus, to remove the GM's onus.

(Crap? Yes. Take long? Not really; no longer than most things I write with an eye for precision. Translation? Keep the mechanics you've already brainstormed, but add in a minor modifier based on how the group feels you did, not a pass/fail GM fiat based on subjective judgment.)