What are the rewards in gaming, specifically provided by the game itself?

The reason why I decided to design a new setting/system is because my group (we’ve been playing for quite a while) has grown pretty bored with a lot of what’s out there (d20, GURPS, ST, Silhouette, etc.). It wasn’t just the settings, but also the systems. D20 is a perfect example. Character development works like inflation. Sure, your character increases in ability, but so does everything else. The only thing that really changes is the flavor. Goblins become trolls become dragons become gods. Don’t get me wrong, we’re not free-formers and we all like the tactical side of gaming, but the game doesn’t really change much over time.

So, now I’m working with a crunchier version of Fate as a foundation. The smaller range of abilities limits character development (at least with skills/attributes), but that’s all an illusion to us anyway. Instead, I’m trying to optimize for getting something new out of a game. For example, the PCs investment in their village/town/etc. is going to be a very real part of the system and will/can even influence their own character’s development. The general idea is to develop the system to manage outside the individual character. In other words, if you read d20s PHB, at least 75% of it (if not more) is filled with rules about what your character can and can’t do, and not as much about what the rest of the world does.

But I digress. Before I get much deeper with this design, I think it’s important that I figure out from where the actual rewards are coming. I mean, it’s not going to come (much) from increases in character power/ability. I’m planning for in-game socioeconomic-type awards, but I want to do more.

So what rewards do *you* get from a game? I don’t mean good times with friends, a couple of beers, etc. I mean, what rewards come from the game itself?

wrote: So what rewards do *you* get from a game? I don’t mean good times with friends, a couple of beers, etc. I mean, what rewards come from the game itself?

I agree with Daniel (if I understand his point). I think a game must be flexible enough to offer more than one kind of reward, otherwise you run the risk of only attracting one kind of player.  Many MMORPGs, for example, provide for players who like to explore or want the best gear or what to make their player the most powerful character in the game.  There are a lot of differences between MMORPGs and PnP rpgs obviously, but just as designers of the former can learn from the latter, the opposite is true.

But back to the point, I think the more specific or detailed you get, the more you restrict the GM and the players.

Just my two cents.

What "theMonk" has to say about multiple reward systems definately make sense, but looking at it from a different angle, I'd encourage the opposite. Once you decide what you want the players to do in the game, the reward cycle should be tied very closely to getting and supporting that core activity, otherwise you create a game with no clear identity (IMO). Also remember that rewards involve more than just the mechanical benefits doled out by the rules, they also include activities that are supported by in-game content and by table-level encouragement and enthusiasm.

Have you read the Articles linked to at the top of the page or considered your game in terms of GNS? The theory stuff behind a lot of Forge talk has a lot to say about rewards and how they effect the way that people play.

Good luck with your game.

The big question is, what does the game provide?

I have one friend that every game he runs is a political high drama, behind the closed door kind of game. Regardless of rules set or setting, Medieval to SciFi and everything between. In his games it is clearly political power.

In another case, I have a friend who is very tactical in his games. Again, regardless of rule set or setting, he somehow turns it into a combat skirmish feel and in his games the rewards are all about the “weapons and armor”.

So to be clear, the reward I want to get is one that supports the type of game we agree to play. I want my efforts and the corresponding reward to match. I look for the payoff for my character to be in line with the type of game we agree to play.

Well in school I remember some of the most succesful campaigns were played with out a system and the reward was doing what wented (I want to be a ninja so the reward was nija stuff). We had some AD&D and used the spells and monsters but none of the rules and that generally worked better than when we actually played the game as written. I also remember playing Pendragon adn watching how the players enjoyed getting glory through marriage and and stuff rather than just killing monsters for XP. It changed the way they played.

Now of course if you get too "existential" about it then you basically ignore the argument and might as well take any setting and play it free-form. But if you want a setting then I uess the reward should be some form of empowerment. IN D&D, yes the monsters scale but players get more options, at low levels in the game s written you basically either whack the monsters or run away, later you can fly, teleport do all kinds of feats and stuff (but basically you just have more ways to whack the monsters). In more narrative games the basic principal is similar - you have more options, players can do more things as they play more.

So basically whatever you choose I think it should be something that empowers the PLAYERS (rather than the characters). That's basically what I'm doing with Creatures of Destiny (check out the Power 19) where destiny is the "maguffin" the "points" the players try to get for prizes. The prizes are all the extra powers stuff but also more narrative influence and  creative control.

Maybe you could use a "film crew model" where cplayers start out as "runners" following GM created plotlines and progress more and more to "directors" with more control over what happens. Or make it like dreaming where the GM throws stuff at them and they become more and more "lucid dreamers" (ie able to influence events) as they progress. Maybe you could make the GM role something that you have to earn (and can lose).

Just some ideas.

Daniel

fig,

I am no longer sure I understand what it is you are looking for. To be clear, I do not want a Role Playing Game that does not reward role playing on one level or another.

When I look at a game to decide if I want to play it or not, I am looking for a game that supports the tone and feel the game claims to be about. That includes the reward system. I also am not interested in a game that can not tie the rewards back to the character and to the role playing aspect of the RPG.

Daniel

Fig, I think I understand where you're coming from here. I've been pondering similar things in connection with my adventure gaming initiative. I'll lay out some random ideas, if you could comment on those like you did with the others, perhaps we'll find something that rings bells for you:

In old D&D the long-term reward for the players did come in the form of qualitative changes in the nature of the game: when you got to a high enough level, you didn't go dungeon-delving anymore, you started having outdoors adventures. This was a big deal for everybody in the group! The whole thing felt different, the problems and content, both tactical and fictional, could be quite different. Then came city-based adventuring, which again was a huge leap in the structural level of activity: the dungeon adventure was all about linear advancement through a tree graph, while the wilderness adventure had you proceed on a map of indeterminately reachable locations. The city adventure didn't have a map at all, you just talked to NPCs who then opened adventure locations for you by guiding you to the right places. Very different.

In AD&D the point of getting to high levels is very clear: you get your own henchmen and get to build a castle and be a successful medieval lord! This changed the nature of play considerably and it was also a very clearly systematic reward, not "mere roleplaying"; when you got the castle, how large it was and so on depended both on character level, wealth and character class.

What those examples illustrate is the idea that "reward" in D&D-style accomplishment games is often progression, but that shouldn't be confused with leveling up. That's just modern D&D shit that's carefully balanced to bowdlerize and standardize the exercise; as you quite correctly recognize, the GM just puts a new number where the orc's attack bonus used to be and continues in nearly the same manner has he used to! The old D&D solution for getting out of that rut was to genuinely change the content and structure of the game as characters progressed: not all groups played like that, but enough did, and the instructions were there to do it if you wanted to. The "progression" was not just empty words and higher numbers like in a computer game, it meant something when combined with new fictional challenges.

Another, different approach is the one taken by many modern narrativistic roleplaying games: what would happen if, when the characters get stronger, the opposition stayed the same? Why, the characters would succeed in doing what the wanted to do, as there would be less and less resistance from the outside world, which again would open more possibilities for the characters. So in this kind of game it is actually quite enough to dole out xp and let the characters grow in power, provided that the opposition can really be overcome to bring on rewarding changes in the campaign. A poster-boy for this kind of gaming is Paul Czege's My Life with Master (and, of course, Puppetland by John Tynes) where the characters grow stronger and stronger when they are rewarded, until finally they are strong enough to take down the Master, which is a very rewarding experience. Just let the characters genuinely triumph with their powers, and the experience will be rewarding. Of course, then you have to end the game after the reward has been achieved, but isn't that a good thing?

Yet another approach is to give ablative resource rewards: what if whatever you give to the characters was strictly one-use? You could dole out lots of power, let the players use it well and tactically, and still not cause a power inflation in the longer term. Shadow of Yesterday has a great application of this in the Pool refreshment mechanics which are really just reward piled on top of reward: you get to pile on the special attacks, spending Pool like there's no tomorrow, after which you get to refresh the pool by having fun with pretty (yet, sadly fictional) girls. Very rewarding, and no danger of power inflation.

A further solution is to give characters genuine mechanical advantages that are very strongly tied into the fiction. I love playing a game where the characters start as blank slates, but after a character's wrested the Three-ring Crown with his own bloody hands from the Arcolich, he's throwing friggin' soul lightning around powered by his own mortality; the emphasis on the character's own accomplishments with their accompanying limitations and consequences makes for meaty rewards that are fun to play with and not at all meaningless number inflation. Runeslayers has a metric butload of reward mechanics, but the most striking of them for me are the heroic feats: the players get to write down crazy stuff their characters did on their adventurers, and then they get bonuses for doing similar stuff later. What's insane here is that the bonus is non-cumulative, but the number of feats is also unlimited, so characters can collect crazy lists of stuff onto their sheets.

This next idea might surprise a guy, depending on his gaming background: killing the character or retiring him might be a great reward, as might be doing other nasty things to him. The important thing to realize is that all of this reward shit is only pertinent when the player cares about the fiction and considers the events therein interesting. In the game of Dread one of the big rewards is killing your own character in a horrible manner after a slow, raising tension. Likewise in Acts of Evil, where one of the wickedest things about character advancement is a list of fetishes your character has adopted for temporary power-ups; the power-ups are long gone, but the scars remain, giving the character the depth of experience without any of the power.

Combining some of the above ideas, a very successful recipe has generally been to empower players to fulfill their agenda in the game with the reward system, allocating mechanical power directly for doing what the player wants to be doing. For example, giving out social rewards in the fiction is not "just roleplaying" when it's attached to rules-mandated, strict mechanical powers. For example, in Agon one of the prime rewards, and a very satisfactory one, are "oaths", which are simply promises that characters and NPCs make to each other for future help. Far from being "just roleplaying" these rewards carry a mechanical bite when characters are forced to fulfill their promises with some minimal mechanical support for the other character, when asked to fulfill their oath. Actually, an even better example is the under-appreciated Fastlane, a game where the most important reward are allies and connections a character can draw power from for his own purposes. The same idea is in Trollbabe, which recognizes only one form of character advancement, gaining new relationships.

Finally: let me say that I really appreciate your design goals. I want to have challengeful, tactical adventure games where character efficiency and development are much more tied into the setting and less to internal character resources.

IN D&D, yes the monsters scale but players get more options, at low levels in the game s written you basically either whack the monsters or run away, later you can fly, teleport do all kinds of feats and stuff (but basically you just have more ways to whack the monsters). In more narrative games the basic principal is similar - you have more options, players can do more things as they play more.

So basically whatever you choose I think it should be something that empowers the PLAYERS (rather than the characters).

I am no longer sure I understand what it is you are looking for. To be clear, I do not want a Role Playing Game that does not reward role playing on one level or another.

I'll lay out some random ideas, if you could comment on those like you did with the others, perhaps we'll find something that rings bells for you:

In old D&D the long-term reward for the players did come in the form of qualitative changes in the nature of the game: when you got to a high enough level, you didn't go dungeon-delving anymore, you started having outdoors adventures.

In AD&D the point of getting to high levels is very clear: you get your own henchmen and get to build a castle and be a successful medieval lord! This changed the nature of play considerably and it was also a very clearly systematic reward, not "mere roleplaying"; when you got the castle, how large it was and so on depended both on character level, wealth and character class.

Another, different approach is the one taken by many modern narrativistic roleplaying games: what would happen if, when the characters get stronger, the opposition stayed the same?

Yet another approach is to give ablative resource rewards: what if whatever you give to the characters was strictly one-use? You could dole out lots of power, let the players use it well and tactically, and still not cause a power inflation in the longer term.

...after which you get to refresh the pool by having fun with pretty (yet, sadly fictional) girls.

But the most striking of them for me are the heroic feats: the players get to write down crazy stuff their characters did on their adventurers, and then they get bonuses for doing similar stuff later.

For example, in Agon one of the prime rewards, and a very satisfactory one, are "oaths", which are simply promises that characters and NPCs make to each other for future help. Far from being "just roleplaying" these rewards carry a mechanical bite when characters are forced to fulfill their promises with some minimal mechanical support for the other character, when asked to fulfill their oath.

I want to have challengeful, tactical adventure games where character efficiency and development are much more tied into the setting and less to internal character resources.

Fig,
  I am pretty sure that you are simply re-discovering Creative Agenda. That is what CA is talking about. The idea that Player A is a Gamist player, he enjoys the challenge that the system provides for him. That challenge is his reward. When his GM is rocking the challenges his reward machine is firing on all cylinders. Now a game can promote/support that CA, but it cannot BE that CA. So the question for Player A is, how does your game promote/support Gamism (or Narrativism or Simulationism for other players)?
  In the end RPGs break down to a few simple activities:
Player Interaction
Role playing
Rules Interaction
Handling Time
  Which of these are you trying to dissect? Because I think they are all pretty much a part of the role playing game experience.

First, I think the whole Gamism/Narrativism thing has become a little politicized and I'm avoiding any kind of positioning in that regard.

Now a game can promote/support that CA, but it cannot BE that CA.

That challenge is his reward.

Player Interaction
Role playing
Rules Interaction
Handling Time
  Which of these are you trying to dissect?

...I must not be getting something. What do you mean by 'reward', as clearly you aren't using the word in the conventional sense? A lot of games offer exactly the rewards you essentially dismiss here, and it's a tough sell on the idea that they are only psuedo rewards of some kind (if that was the case, how did smashing greenskins to get cooler stuff become so popular?)

See, this isn't provided by the game, this is provided by RP. The game is just a vehicle for RP, and it's not even necessary. I mean, if he wants to RP political drama, he can make a political drama LARP. But regardless, this reward isn't provided by the game itself, it's provided by the RP, which (as you say) is happening regardless of the game.

Collecting stuff isn't too meaningful in game terms. It's just a (virtual) material manifestation of power inflation. So he has super tricked out gear? I'm sure the more/better gear he gets, the more/better gear his opponents have. This is like the Diablo syndrome. In this case, the game isn't providing a reward, just the illusion of reward.

But how do you define a reward? And once you define it, what is a reward that can be provided not through social interaction (you don't need to game for that), not through RP (you can just LARP or freeform), but from the game itself.

I don't know if this will clarify anything, but I think I'm experiencing RPG existentialism. :)

So, you can *do* more, but this doesn't come from increases in BAB or higher levels (directly). It comes from having access to more abilities, or from features that create new in-game effects. I bet you could reformulate d20, strip out features that scale up as your level increases (i.e. keep HP constant, no extra damage per level for spells, etc.) and you'll have a game that is just as rewarding (assuming you think d20 is rewarding).quote]

Doubt it. Well, not unless you also culled most of the content from the Monster Manual, since there's hardly a point in having a bunch of monsters that players can never hope to survive encountering (and then one would have to ask if much of the incentive to play hasn't been lost?)

You also somehow want levels and level-attained feats / abilities to be mutually exclusive, when the given system clearly doesn't allow for that. So, yes, all that neat stuff does directly come from levels, since levels and level gaining is necessarily bound to them.

This reminds me of the first time I played Earthdawn. It was also my first time playing anything other than D&D. I remember my reaction when I found out that my HPs actually stayed pretty constant. At first I was put off, but it made a lot of sense when I thought about it.

They don't, actually. You just aren't thinking about it very clearly.

This doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the system, but if it does, the question is how? Let's say a player just wants to pretend to be a superhero, fly around, and do superhero-y stuff. Being able to do that is not a game reward, it's a social/psychological reward and/or a reward of RP. The game isn't necessary, maybe it helps legitimize the player's experience of RP, but this is not of intrinsic value to the game itself.

Using this logic, nothing should count as a reward, by virtue of the fact that there are is more than one way to obtain a reward. Yes, a game of superheroic action would most certainly be rewarding to play for someone who wanted said action. The fact that they could get their fix elsewhere is totally irrelevant.

This is not really about what each of us wants as individuals. It's about identifying separating extrinsic and intrinsic qualities of the game system. I'm particularly interested in the potential intrinsic qualities of a game system. So, a game that rewards RP (whether or not you like that kind of thing) is extrinsic.

Then you can't be talking about 'rewards' at all, because rewards by their very nature are subjective. What I find rewarding is probably not the same as what you find rewarding. I can't be rewarded 'whether or not I like it', because if I don't like it, it isn't rewarding.

And then what? So you have a castle? What more is it than a scribble on a piece of paper? The "reward" is a product of other game elements, but its actual value is not much different than a jump in BAB or more hps. It's just stuff. What the system does not account for is *doing* stuff with your stuff. More importantly, it does not provide a way for you to do *more* stuff with your stuff.

It isn't more than a scribble on some paper. Just like your character isn't. I thought you were looking for ideas on in-game rewards?

And all of those things (extra HPs, more abilities, I'm sure whatever BAB is, a new castle and some hired goons) do let you do more (in game terms. I mean... are you looking for the game to something inflate your own personal bank account or something? The whole statement you just made is downright... well, it's just fucked-up). Suddenly I can fight dragons, have my castle besieged, declare war, etc. Which is a lot more than what I can do as a Level 1 chump.

While this would dispel the illusion of growth, this doesn't really add any intrinsic value to the game. I do see how it can be rewarding in the end, but the gameplay itself would not necessarily be rewarding, just another step towards the actual reward.

...More of the same garbage I've already dealt with...

I'm not totally sure how to respond to this idea, but I'll try. The refresh method in particular, seems to be more about players (virtually) realizing fantasies for which the game is just vehicle. But this can illustrate a distinction I'm trying to make. First of all, I'm assuming that this refresh comes from getting laid (in game). This is definitely RP. If that's what someone wants to do, the player doesn't need a game. Hell, s/he doesn't even need RP. The player just needs to go pub-hopping. Regardless, these rewards are derived from RP, and possibly some kind of social/psychological need. The game is irrelevant

...And more...

This is also scribbling on a piece of paper. I'm sure it's great for RP, and there's the social/psychological benefits, but the game only facilitates these things.

...And, yes, even more. This whole 'just scribbling on paper' thing really smacks of ignorance. I mean, the entire pen and paper roleplaying world is 'just scribbling on paper' - as is illustrating, writing, painting and a variety of other rewarding tasks people choose to fill their time with.

In looking at a lot of games, I'm trying to better understand the intrinsic qualities of the game itself. Underneath the RP, the social rewards, and other miscellany, there is a game happening. I'm trying to see under the facade as to what is really "there" in the game, or at least what *could* be there.

By and large? Bell curves and probability schemes.

Oooh. Exciting stuff, eh?

Now I get it. You're trying to mystify the hobby, basically. There's something *other*, something *magical* and outside of the comprehesion of us hapless simps that lies hidden and underneath all that 'roleplaying' stuff, which really just serves as a smokescreen before what really keeps us involved in the hobby.

Buddy, get real.

Hello,

Grinning Moon has directed my attention to this thread, asking for me to moderate his last post. I agree that it should be moderated. I've asked him to post, essentially moderating himself.

Everyone else: please do not reply until that happens.

Best, Ron

I'm not sure I know what you mean, Ron, but I'm assuming that his reply in quotes was the reply that was to be moderated, and the unquoted reply was the reply you asked for. Or not? But, if that's the case, I'm just going to ignore his quoted post and consider his unquoted post, which looks like it was a correction from the original post.

If I'm (potentially) in trouble for anything, I just want to clarify the ideas on which I'm focusing in this thread. So, one day you sit down and decide to design a game. The question that I'm focusing on is, what does/can a game do? And I'm not talking about stuff like a few beers with the friends or the opportunity to RP a dwarf with an Uzi. These are things you can do and for which you don't need a game. I'm assuming the game itself has to have an intrinsic purpose or function (dependent on the design, of course). I'm trying to determine and analyze what this is.

...How is it 'not provided by the game'? If the game is vehicle, then it most certainly is providing the entertainment and rewards. You're essentially arguing that because other things can provide the same type of entertainment / reward, this particular avenue is irrelevant. Which is, of course, a rediculous statement.

This is a highly questionable, not to mention extremely subjective, statement. Try telling the many people who pull all-nighters to complete their equipment sets in Diablo or hunt for the latest and greatest drops in Hellgate: London that said items are 'not too meaningful in the game'.

It's also not really accurate to simply label it as 'inflation'. It's not like the goblins suddenly get tougher as the player beefs-up their character. The act of beefing their character earns them the ability to move on to bigger and better conquests - so they do so. It's like arguing that I'm not really making more money if my earnings go from $10.00 an hour to $15.00 an hour, because I'm 'just buying more expensive things now'. You're omitting the fact that, essentially, that's the entire point.

No, you're just making something very simple out to be extremely complex (not to mention throwing around bold statements that clearly lack any thought behind them).

All right, now things are getting gummed up.

Folks, when I say "Please do not post," I mean really, do not post. Don't type, don't hit Submit, nothing. If you have a question about why, or what I really mean, or anything about the moderation, then ask in Site Discussion or send me a private message. The worst thing you can do is to post to a thread on which I've said, do not post.

Why is it the worst thing? Because the ball is in Grinning Moon's court, to post what he means, so no one has to guess. Now that you've guessed and replied, more uncertainty has been added, and glory be, we are suddenly on the internet, where no one is communicating and posts go all sorts of reactive directions.

Guys, for this thread to get anywhere constructive, I'm sayin': no one is to post here again - no one at all - until Grinning Moon re-posts his point in the courteous way that he wants to do it. Fig, your last post should be ignored by Grinning Moon, and with any luck, we can move forward with the last few posts - pretty much everything since Eero's post - being considered a detour.

If that doesn't happen for any reason, then I gotta bring down that Forge moderation people like to talk about so much. Work with me, folks - let Grinning Moon do the next posting.

Best, Ron

Alrighty; since Ron has generously allowed me to essentially go back in time and fix what I said earlier, I'll see if I can do this right a second time:

fig: I don't understnad what you mean when you say 'reward'. It seems like you're chasing some kind of mystical element that you feel exists within gaming that keeps us going back to it.

The things you've claimed that aren't rewards, well, clearly are rewards; they're a form of positive reinforcement that keeps you doing what the game wants you to do.

So - what does the term 'reward' mean to you?

(P.S. : I apologize for holding-up this discussion for this long. I didn't have the guts to look in here or in my private messages for a day after my other post here).

Cool! I hope it moves forward from here, 'cause I like to talk about the distinction between reward system, which is a generalized concept, and reward mechanics, which are rules/procedures. I'm thinking that maybe this distinction can help.

Best, Ron

I don't understnad what you mean when you say 'reward'. It seems like you're chasing some kind of mystical element that you feel exists within gaming that keeps us going back to it.

Fig, whats the difference between social interaction, "RP" and roleplay. You list these as if they are discreet elements, but I don't know that they are.

Also, let me rephrase to see if I understand what your looking for: What is it about a game's mechanics that makes it enjoyable to use them in and of themselves, irregardlss of other forms of reward that encourage's a player to continue using said mechanics. That is to say, why play (system X) as opposed to not using a system at all or using any other system? That seems to be your question, right?

Would it be useful to look at this from the viewpoint of boardgame design? It seems to me that your understanding of "game" is limited to the movement of game components within a rules framework, similar to the limitations wherein boardgames operate. Boardgame design has its own theories for reward structures, so perhaps those might prove interesting.

Apart from that I suggest thinking carefully about the real and perceived differences between different kinds of roleplaying game interactions. The gap between "RP reward" and "game reward" is not a strict line, but rather a conceptual matter of perspective between different models of understanding. You can't differentiate between those categories just based on the fiction of the game or an ulterior description. I'm not even sure if the line can be drawn in anything except personal perception and preconceptions of an individual.

Fig, whats the difference between social interaction, "RP" and roleplay. You list these as if they are discreet elements, but I don't know that they are.

What is it about a game's mechanics that makes it enjoyable to use them in and of themselves, irregardlss of other forms of reward that encourage's a player to continue using said mechanics. That is to say, why play (system X) as opposed to not using a system at all or using any other system? That seems to be your question, right?

Apart from that I suggest thinking carefully about the real and perceived differences between different kinds of roleplaying game interactions. The gap between "RP reward" and "game reward" is not a strict line, but rather a conceptual matter of perspective between different models of understanding. You can't differentiate between those categories just based on the fiction of the game or an ulterior description.

Well this is my first post here, so bear with me if I don't know what I'm talking about. :)
GNS agendas are just as abstract as anything else, but they are familiar. It is certainly valid to dig deeper and look at what components actually make them valuable. Existentialism is actually quite an appropriate word, as there are those people who feel a sense of achievement and meaning simply from collecting a set of things, and a desire for completeness in itself is not a bad one. And yet collecting things can sometimes be looked at as pointless, as people should be putting their effort into "bigger things" which are sometimes only "bigger" because of the social approval attached. In game rewards can form a similar type of joy, as they are intentionally created meaning structures, but as with collecting, either they do attach in some way to the ideals that the players hold, and so can be considered valuable, or they are just grind. Now sometimes this connection is through an illusion, where people imagine they just faced death, or it might be through actual player, rather than character experience. Now depending on how positive your view of the universe is you may have different opinions on this illusion, (which is not to say its a streight negative proportion, people who love life may love many lives) but the fact that it can wear out can be a problem. There's only so long you can think of yourself as smart because you rolled high puzzle rolls, and the same goes for every other feature of the story. Now for some people the roleplaying activity itself is just an excuse, a thing to "get back to" during lulls in conversation, but we can't have that! People should be able to use game systems to express their personality, experience fascinating/amusing/thoughtprovoking situations and test and expand their abilities and all sorts of other things (notice that that is not strict GNS, as I put half of N into S and put the other half with bits of G). Does any of this strike a resonance with you?
I'm currently trying to build a game that shifts from Hack and Slash through Strategy and Politics to Psychology, while trying to keep the original elements as it scales up. The idea is that as you gain power, your enemy becomes not sudden death, but eventually yourself and your own decisions. Basically it scales up through Maslow's Heirachy of Needs with a bit of Jung on the end, from the physical to the social to the moral to destiny and fate.
Don't denigrate "only facilitates", the fact that games help us to look at these things from a different perspective are one of the classic reasons that hypothetical situations are used in therapy. I might suggest that the reason that you disliked Exalted was not because of the roleplay, but the egoist narrative inherant in the system. It's my reservation with the wushu system as well, as being badass is not one of my ideals, and in fact it is very far from it! Now to be fair I still like to watch people taking out a floor full of mooks, because of how they do it, and that is an advantage of the description=power system, you get good descriptions. Actually that's not true, you get flowery descriptions, which are only half the fun, but they are great for getting shy people to get used to the sound of their own voice, which helps elsewhere. A better example might be my perfect mental image of Mage, where creative dodges of disbelief are the core of the day to day experience.
You also said that you can make a rewarding system without pigeonholing it, which may be true, but to some extent rules that have no consideration of the style are a bit dead, so I would suggest rules tweaks whenever you change styles, but that's a comment about generic systems that has been made much better before, so I'll leave it to someone else.

OK
  I have been kicking around the idea of how I was going to contribute. I think I just want to participate and see where it goes. But before that, I just want to quickly say two things:
1) I really do think that the non-political version of GNS (the version posted here at the Forge) is answering the same question you are asking. What we are talking about is how the game mechanics/rules interact in a way that the player finds rewarding. And that sounds like the same thing to me.
2) I agree with others who have said that it might be impossible to extract the non-mechanical rewards from other more social rewards when it comes to Role Playing...
  But, that aside, here is my best attempt at participating
Rewards
Collection - By this I mean the sort of virtual or pseudo-consumerism that is supported by some games. The game has shiny toys, Artifacts, cyber-gear etc. I think that games that use these mechanics appeal to players that have the collectors bug
Character advancement - This reward depends on buy-in. It is clear you do not buy in to the concept of character advancement as a reward. But, that does not mean that it does not exist and that all other players feel the same as you. The fact is that well designed character advancement can be very rewarding
Entertainment - Some reward provided by RPGs is provided in the form of entertainment, that is just listening to the story and participating when prompted. Again, this is not every player, but some if not many
Creativity - Some players feel rewarded by a game that enables/focuses their creativity. But this is not creativity for creativities sake, it is confined, constrained and judged at the moment of creation. Few other mediums can claim that level of creative support. Again, not all players are rewarded by this act, but it is there and important to consider in game design
Accomplishment - The rules/mechanics can support the players feeling of accomplishment after finishing a virtual task by supporting the GMs ability to create engaging and rewarding situations. Again, not all players can get that sense of accomplishment from an RPG, but my guess is many can and do.
Control - RPGs are one of the few things where you have total control over something (usually the PC). It is a great diversion from reality and rewarding in its own way
Escapism - RPGs provide a break from reality, I think that is why so many successful RPGs have such byzantine mechanics, it requires you to think harder and thereby escaper further from reality.
  I don't know, there are probably more, but I thought this would be a good start on a concrete list. Maybe we can brainstorm more and eliminate others that don't fit your model...
  Sorry about the diversion in the beginning, just felt like it needed to be said. Good luck on your design!

I might suggest that the reason that you disliked Exalted was not because of the roleplay, but the egoist narrative inherant in the system.

Character advancement - This reward depends on buy-in. It is clear you do not buy in to the concept of character advancement as a reward. But, that does not mean that it does not exist and that all other players feel the same as you. The fact is that well designed character advancement can be very rewarding

I think what you have to say about accomplishment is way off. From a simple "realworld" application POV, my vocabulary is better in large part because of D&D and, later, Vampire. Math, socailising, problem solving. I learned to do all these things better because of playing RPGs. Its an excercise in effective thinking in a collaborative environment, and in general, an excellent tool for learning how to handle a variety of situations in real life. Remember that I'm using the word "tool" here for a reason, which is that you have to want to learn these things and then use them in non-RPG settings.
I think literature and video games can both be great sources of learning, as can writting your own fiction, but to say that they're better learning tools or tools of self expression is sort of missing the point. If someone wanted to watch TV to relax, and you started asking them, why not sleep or meditate or read or whatever, they'd probably answer that they felt like watching TV. So, if you ask, why are you playing an RPG in your free time, the answer would be, because I like to. Any comparison between RPG's and other possible uses of time would have to consider personal tastes, and that's about all there is to it.

So, if you ask, why are you playing an RPG in your free time, the answer would be, because I like to.

Okay let's look at some different mediums as consumers:

Films/TV

Novels/fiction

Computer Games

RPGs

Boardgames

Arts and Crafts

Okay the first two are narrative and often have a "simulationist" aspect (iI'm really warping the old GNS model to fit fiction) in that they create an artificial reality for us to experience. They are both "passive" in that the audience is a consumer (you can critique what you consume but that's another issue)

Computer Games - This is huge categorary but if we look only at computer rpg's (the closest form) then we have some narrative control. We usually have a lot of "gamist" control, as in a lot of opportunities to compete and win or lose based on our ability to play the game. Non RPG's have no narrative control but ussually even more gamist control. SOme have virtual social interaction (online play).

Boardgames: Here we have total gamist control - we play to win and can lose. Varying degrees of luck/skill are involved. There is usually a lot of room for social interaction, especially with simple games.

RPGs. Okay so we've got some variation but there are the narrative elements (the being told a story, ie railroaded), which is usually unsatisfyingin a RPG. There's also a strong amount of narrative control. Even in non-narrative games like D&D there's still the opportunity for players to run riot with the DM's plotline in a way that readers or film viewers cannot. There's also gamist elements in varying degrees where you can win or lose. And there's simulation going on often as well. So there are various combinations of the pleasures of game-playing, storytelling and stroy consumption. Potentially this is a winning mix, though it often falls short of what it could be. That's not surprising when you consider that even novels and films often fail to entertain and their written by professionals with far less constraints than the typical GM/player group. Still the amateur storytellers have the advantage of tailoring to a much smaller audince (themselves only) and of enjoying their own creation.

The point is that if RPGS have no meaning than neither does any other form of fiction and neither does any other form of game. If RPG's often fail to hit the spot either as games or as fiction then that's a result of implementation, which is partly about game design, and partly about play groups ability (because RPG's are something you can be good at or bad at).

I'd also say that being good at something is a reward in itself.

Fig,
  OK, seriously, this has to be the most negative thread I have posted to.
  Almost every answer anyone has put forward you have rejected.
  Furthermore, I feel like you have an answer you want to hear, and if that is the case, spit it out instead of making us guess what you are getting at.
  Finally, just because a reward is provided by another medium or could be provided in a better manner does not mean that other players do not see it as a reward. I think my list is a pretty good starting point. Not the end, but a beginning, unless you have an actual idea or at least a constructive criticism that leads to better or new ideas, lets start there?
  Happy hunting!

Fig, as I read through this thread over and over, I keep hitting these concrete points which get me thinking "yeah, right, I totally get where he's coming from!". But then you say something incredibly reductionist and you totally lose me again.

For example, I agree with and can easily address a concern like "leveling up isn't really a reward since the opposition just becomes stronger on a linear curve". Eero mentioned how in some versions of D&D, the monster's wouldn't just get stronger and the traps deadlier, but the nature of gameplay would change. This is a helluva reward, if the players are grooving on the idea of facing new forms of challenges in the game, such as killing monsters in different environs, sieging castles, leading armies and so on.

If the players don't give a hoot about that - perhaps because they're mostly interested in increasing their character's personal power relative to the fictional enemies they face, rather than their own tactical abilities - then such drastic changes will seem pointless.

But I can see why such an answer would seem useless if your core concern lie much deeper than that, as it seems to. An acquaintance of mine recently commented that he doesn't like computer games, because to him they all boil down to "connect the two dots". It is true that on an abstract level, all computer games do boil down to a binary switching game, if you ignore all the content pre-created for purpose of passive entertainment. Similarly, it is true that roleplaying game mechanics boil down to similarly simple and seemingly meaningless activities - roll the die to determine if the story goes left or right, roll the die to determine who gets to decide where the story goes, roll the die to determine if you get to increment a number on your sheet. Notably, roleplaying games - like modern computer games - have been mostly obfuscated content pre-created for purpose of passive entertainment for quite some time now, as Ron Edwards et al points out.

I have some thoughts on this, too, but I don't want to waste my time and yours with addressing a possibly non-existent question. Can I ask you to clarify what level of "reward" you're specifically concerned with? Explicit system-based and/or fictional rewards, like "stats" and "stuff"? Personal-goal type rewards, like the ones Dave (dindenver) lists? Somewhat more overarching GNS type rewards? Or rewards based on the nature of "entertainment" itself? Right now, I feel you're giving examples in the first category, people respond in the second and third, and you respond in the negative by invoking the fourth.

OK, seriously, this has to be the most negative thread I have posted to. Almost every answer anyone has put forward you have rejected.

Fig, as I read through this thread over and over, I keep hitting these concrete points which get me thinking "yeah, right, I totally get where he's coming from!". But then you say something incredibly reductionist and you totally lose me again.

Eero mentioned how in some versions of D&D, the monster's wouldn't just get stronger and the traps deadlier, but the nature of gameplay would change.

Can I ask you to clarify what level of "reward" you're specifically concerned with?

Or rewards based on the nature of "entertainment" itself?

Fig, You've come back a few times to the idea that RPG's put limits on creativity, but I think you'll find that many creative people really like to think within the box, because it forces them to stretch mental muscles that they may never stretch in the vacuum of themselves. Also, the idea that I have to incorporate the input of other creative people continues to make me stretch.
So why not just sit around with a group of friends and tell stories with our own list of arbitrary limitations:

1) The preconceived notions of given game give the creative person a launching off point and give the group a (supposedly) cohesive basis from which to start. This encourages all of the participants to stay on the same page.
2) The game system creates an in-built way to solve or at least address creative differences and make sure that everyone follows the same functional constraints.
3) The "secondary" elements of the game (those aspects most similar to board game or video game play) allow the players to take the focus of themselves or their ability to be effective storytellers, the feeling of "its just a game" alleviate the rather intense pressure of asking people to sit down and impress others with their ability to tell compelling stories. The fact that RPG's do a great job of hiding this core activity, but still leave the players with a strong sense of having participated in something (namely, the creation of a shared story) is one of the activities greatest strengths.

masqueradeball wrote:
Fig, You've come back a few times to the idea that RPG's put limits on creativity, but I think you'll find that many creative people really like to think within the box, because it forces them to stretch mental muscles that they may never stretch in the vacuum of themselves. Also, the idea that I have to incorporate the input of other creative people continues to make me stretch.
So why not just sit around with a group of friends and tell stories with our own list of arbitrary limitations:

1) The preconceived notions of given game give the creative person a launching off point and give the group a (supposedly) cohesive basis from which to start. This encourages all of the participants to stay on the same page.
2) The game system creates an in-built way to solve or at least address creative differences and make sure that everyone follows the same functional constraints.
3) The "secondary" elements of the game (those aspects most similar to board game or video game play) allow the players to take the focus of themselves or their ability to be effective storytellers, the feeling of "its just a game" alleviate the rather intense pressure of asking people to sit down and impress others with their ability to tell compelling stories. The fact that RPG's do a great job of hiding this core activity, but still leave the players with a strong sense of having participated in something (namely, the creation of a shared story) is one of the activities greatest strengths.

I totally agree with masqueradeball, but I'd say there's more to it than that, and this time I won't hit you with a big ball of text:

Enforced communication:
Turn systems insure that everyone has a chance to contribute, and balance systems insure that everyone's contribution can be meaningful (which is partly the essence of true balance and often not achieved).
Brainspasm defence:
Random tables and other world building tools allow you to muddle through creative blocks, while staying in theme.
Challenges to agency:
The system forces people to come to terms with not always getting their way; they may well fail at stuff a fair amount without loosing overall and this produces perseverance in life. It also expands peoples creative horizons, as they may be forced to deal with decisions that they never normally would have to. "I would never end up in that dilemma." "Well you rolled badly and now you are!"
Education and encouragement to maturity:
Along side the challenge thing, if you look at Dogs in the Vineyard it suggests that the GM probes peoples principles and deconstruct simplistic ideas. It's just a shame no method was suggested to help him do this, but then academic philosophy finds this hard. Along side this there is the mental advantage of slowly amping difficulty so that as with the model of effortful study, skill can be truly increased. To be honest there's also all the implicit lessons that people put into their rules like "You can't be good at everything" "Give it time and you'll get better" etc.
Challenge and rebellion:
Because the rules are so obviously made up, people are more likely to challenge them and imagine different worlds, leading to places like the forge, but also people more likely to challenge traditions that they can see are similarly arbitrary.
Adult play:
It allows and encourages adults to include things from the adult world into play, which is supposedly the child world, encouraging experimentation, creativity, flexibility and general geekyness, of the kind that drives our society forward.

And that's mostly in addition to the stuff in my last post. Of course this looks towards an idealised rpg, but when you know how it could be good you can try to change it, rather than just giving up!