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Topic: [Thou Art but a Warrior] The Fall of a Kingdom
Started by: travisfarber
Started on: 3/2/2008
Board: Playtesting


On 3/2/2008 at 6:20pm, travisfarber wrote:
[Thou Art but a Warrior] The Fall of a Kingdom

Last night I had the opportunity to put together a game of Thou Art But A Warrior.  We were unexpectedly down one player, so we ran with three, although long term four players should be there.

The three characters are:
Nasir(Moor)
Office - Lt of the Guard
Blessings - Toledo Forged Sword, War Horse, his sister Layla
Fate - *Death of the Emir, to become Capt of the Guard
Ability - Knight, Technique: Twin Swords

Moon Relationships - Walid, capt of the Guard
Star Relationships - Layla, sister
Infidel - *Rodrigo, Commander of the Christian armies, Shimon, Brother of Nasir's former lover

Amit(Arab)
Office - Head Falconer
Blessings - Toledo Forged Sword, Falcon(Hafza)
Fate - *Death of the Emir, Relationship with the Emir's daughter's stand in Salima
Ability - Charisma, Sharp eyed, Swordsman

Moon Relationships - 2nd to the Commander, Abdul
Star Relationships - Asad, his bastard child
Infidel - *Rodrigo, Commander of the Christian armies, Valerio, the unscrupulous Dhimmi merchant

Faiz(Arab)
Office - Son of the Emir and heir to the Taifa, Knight
Blessings - Toledo Forged Sword, Vaults of the Taifa, Regal Clothing
Fate - *Death of the Emir, To be married to Aludra, another Emir's daughter
Ability - Talk my way out of anything

Moon Relationships - Achmed, sparring partner and mentor
Star Relationships - Fatima, his sister, Aludra, his betrothed
Infidel - *Rodrigo, Commander of the Christian armies, Samir, brother of Aludra

To give a background on the three players.  One player has played in a full game of Polaris and two one shots of TABAW, One player had played in a full game of Polaris, and the last player had no previous experience.  Beyond the one player that had previously played TABAW none of us had any true knowledge of the time period(beyond the information from the book and a few forgettable college history courses).  There was some apprehension to the setting before we started.  During character creation I gave a brief run down of the culture and the setting.  Due to having three players One player took on both rolls of the star and the moon.

The first scene was focussed on Amit, and more importantly his "son".  Amit walks into the Aerie to find his son beating on a smaller boy.  It leads to him scolding his son and sending the other boy away.  The boy comes back with his father, lesser rank than Amit, who demands a fair punishment.  Asad decides that the proper punishment is that Asad will do whatever the smaller boys commands for a month, which ends up leading to the boy stealing a cross from Valerio and getting caught doing it.  We ended the scene with the Dhimmi Valerio entering Amit's chambers.(Throughout this scene, the infidel was constantly trying to out the boy as being Amit's son but was unable to execute it).

The second scene was for Faiz.  Samir is visiting and they are sitting down for a formal meal.  After a few pissing matches in regards to who is a better commander, who uses less Christian mercenaries and whatever else they could use to try and prove who is better Samir is poisoned by the food he has eaten.  And while he personally is effected by the poison his father is more than happy to ignore the incident to keep the upcoming marriage on track.  Samir is not so forgiving and the tension between the two of them has definitely increased.

The third scene was for Nasir.  Shimon visits his home and barges in.  He starts making accusations of Nasir ruining his sister and demands that Nasir pay his sisters brides price.  After Nasir tries to talk him down Shimon responds with "you deflowered my sister, and then you casted her aside like trash."  Nasir responds with "I was far from the first..."  in which Shimon immediately attacks him.  The brawl continues on as many people outside his house overhear the ruckus.  It ends with Shimon thinking he's left Nasir dead.

The fourth scene is for Amit right where we left off with Valerio coming into his home and wants justice for Asad's stealing.  Amit states that the boy is an orphan and he cannot pay the man the price he is asking but decides to deal out a fair punishment.  In the end the two boys are brought in and the punishment is that Asad must chop off two of the fingers of the smaller boy.  Valerio is not seen as the bad guy though, and Asad begins to trust the merchant.  In the end Asad does learn the lesson that Amit is trying to teach.

The Fifth scene jumps to the beginning of battle.  There are two Taifa's forces one led by Faiz and one led by Samir.  Faiz has a parley with Rodrigo before the battle begins.  Each drop rhetoric as to why this land is theirs and they ride back to their armies ready for battle.  The fight is easily one by the muslim forces.

The sixth scene goes into the conflict of the battle from Nasir's perspective.  Nasir is supposed to be there to keep Faiz safe.  Nasir comes across Rodrigo and the two of them charge each other.  Nasir is on the losing end of the charge but is able to wound Rodrigo's horse as he is falling off his horse.  He thinks he has left Faiz completely undefended and Rodrigo is able to take the advantage.  Nasir falls unconscious during the fight.

The seventh scene involves Amit in the same battle.  Amit is sending his trusted falcon Hafza  at an enemy Christian.  Hafza has no problem taking down the soldier but is beaten by another soldier breaking his wing.  Amit charges into the combat to save his falcon but loses an eye in the process.

The eighth scene has Faiz getting over ambitious.  After he had forced the Christians to flee he decides to continue to run down as many men as he possibly can.  Unfortunately, Samir decides to restrain his troops causing Faiz to lose many men unnecessarily.  The scene ends with the two of them arguing and fighting breaking out between the two forces.

The ninth scene involves Nasir trying to guard Faiz again.  He is bested and taken as a hostage by Samir's men.  This scene is where we hit 5 discord.  We described it as the fight between these two forces escalating to more battles and just general unrest between the two taifa's.

We ended the game for the night after this scene.  While I was trying to keep notes on the game I was having a very hard time keeping track of the key phrases.  We used them extensively throughout the game but I did not have a good way to track them for purposes of writing them up.  As a side note the player that was most concerned with the setting felt pretty comfortable with it by the end of the first session.  We did not alter discord in any way, although if we play with 3 players again we probably will.  Also, after the fact I realized I misread the number of traits.  I don't think it had a big impact on the game though.

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On 3/3/2008 at 4:27am, wunderllama wrote:
Re: [Thou Art but a Warrior] The Fall of a Kingdom

Travis: This is awesome. Thanks for posting this.

I have some questions regarding things I'd like you to keep your eyes on next session, but I'll have to try to organize my thoughts on that front tomorrow. More later.

~Anna

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On 3/4/2008 at 6:06pm, wunderllama wrote:
RE: Re: [Thou Art but a Warrior] The Fall of a Kingdom

Okay, it’s been busy the past few days, but I’ve got some questions and things to keep your eyes on for next session:

• Is there any problem with using the code of conduct to figure out how many experience rolls should be made for a specific scene? Should the code of conduct be clarified for purposes of experience rolls?
• How many experience rolls were people making on average per scene? (A wild guess is cool.)
• How did things play with three players? Was it significantly different than with four?
• Did you have people select a second Office as part of character creation for the purposes of focusing the story? 

For next session, it would be greatly appreciated if you could note how many experience rolls happen in each scene, and which one results in advances. (Maybe keep a tally?) What I’d love to know is approximately how many rolls it takes to trigger a Discord event.

Thanks!

~Anna

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On 3/8/2008 at 7:24pm, travisfarber wrote:
RE: Re: [Thou Art but a Warrior] The Fall of a Kingdom

•  Is there any problem with using the code of conduct to figure out how many experience rolls should be made for a specific scene? Should the code of conduct be clarified for purposes of experience rolls?

There were a few instances that came up that the Heart and the Infidel were disagreeing if a particular item fell under honesty.  For this game the the third player made the judgement call.  I don't think it needs clarified.

•  How many experience rolls were people making on average per scene? (A wild guess is cool.)

One.  It had to be a pretty extreme scene for us to make the call on more than one.

•  How did things play with three players? Was it significantly different than with four?

I wouldn't say it was significantly different.  A lot of weight gets put on the Stars and Moon and they really have to stay on their toes but I wouldn't say it was tremendously different.

•  Did you have people select a second Office as part of character creation for the purposes of focusing the story?

No.  Although as we made characters if anyone was struggling for ideas I recommended choosing the office first.  For some reason that I still can't put my finger on it helped jump start ideas.

For next session, it would be greatly appreciated if you could note how many experience rolls happen in each scene, and which one results in advances. (Maybe keep a tally?) What I’d love to know is approximately how many rolls it takes to trigger a Discord event.

Can do. 

Hope this helps a bit.  Sorry it took so long to post responses, I spent the last week on the road for work and just didn't have a chance to hit a computer.

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On 4/10/2008 at 11:30pm, travisfarber wrote:
RE: Re: [Thou Art but a Warrior] The Fall of a Kingdom

Here is the write up for the second session. 

We introduced a new player, and he played the character Diego

Diego is a warrior priest.
Ability - Guilt trip
Fate - Death of the Emir, My "flock" of followers
Blessings - Toledo Forged Steel, horse whip, very fast horse
Office - Mullah, Hot Temper
In this infidel - Rodrigo, Isabul, his first wife
Star - Ahuva(love interest), Leoncia(father)
Moon - Karim(religious mentor)

Scene 10 starts with Faiz meeting with Aludra, his betrothed, for the first time.  We stated going into this that the two Taifa's had been warring with each other and on Aludra's birthday she asked Faiz to call a halt to the fighting.  He agreed and then met with her.  Eventhough there was a veneer of civility Faiz actually used the entire meeting to get the Taifa to lower their guard and the moment Aludra's birthday was over he completely destroyed their armies and definitively won the war.
There were three sin rolls at the end of the scene, one was a failure.

In scene 11 we move to Nasir being imprisoned by the Christians from the last session.  A Priest comes in to bless him.  They have a philosophical argument about religion, but in the end the Priest decides he is going to try to save his soul and convert him.  Rob came back with a This shall not come to pass and he was successful in his roll.  He then escaped but in doing so permanently crippled his leg.
There were no sin rolls!

We set the scene for the 12th by saying Asad was working for Valerio ignoring his own duties for his father.  Amit calls in his bastard son and starts lecturing him about duty and honour.  Asad tells him that he would like to be a knight like his father to which Amit responds you have forsaken your duty and how can you expect to be a knight without duty and honour.  Asad responds with I was merely following your example.  At that moment Valerio enters into the room.  Valerio asks Amit if he can borrow Asad for the day.  Amit does not allow it, and Asad reacts viciously.  Asad at first kills all of Amits Falcons in the Aerie(to which the player called for you ask far too much) to he just kills his favorite falcon Hafza.  Also in the scene another falcon trainer lost both of his eyes and Amit takes in his son, Abdul,  and starts training him as well.  Asad runs away.
There were 4 rolls in the scene, one failure.

And in scene 13 we introduce Diego for the first time.  We start the scene with him in bed with Ahuva.  Isabel, his wife, storms into the room.  After Isabel yells at him Diego responds with join us in bed.  Furious she goes to her uncle, the emir, but he does not listen to her angry ramblings.  She takes her revenge by getting the women in the city to shun Ahuva.
I forgot to write down the number of sins, but I remember there were quite a few, with two failures.

Scene 14 was a scene for Faiz.  In this scene Faiz completely takes over the land, and by force takes over the Taifa.  While doing so, Rodrigo's forces are able to destroy much of his home.  He is not worried though, as the stupid Christians are easily pushed back out of their lands.
There were 4 rolls in this scene with the failure not only leading to 10 discord but also Faiz advancing from a Novice to a veteran.
While Faiz sleeps he gets a message from two angels.  They tell him that there is only one chance of God saving there land and the only person that can do it is his father the Emir.  He must go and tell him quickly.  Faiz wakes and races to his father, who he finds murdered in his sleep.

Scene 15 took up right where we left off with Faiz overlooking his dead father.  The captain of the guard is missing and Nasir comes into the room.  Faiz calls for the arrest of the captain, but one of the servants states that Nasir is actually the killer.  Not being able to find the captain a trial is held for Nasir.  During the trial Nasir is found guilty(due to much lying and bribery).  Through a conflict he accepts a lifetime prison sentence in the worst cell but only if after 10 years Whalid, the Captain of the guard, has a guilty conscience and admits the truth.  We jumped the game forward ten years at this point and Faiz gives Nasir the authority to judge Whalid.  Nasir takes the sword and swings, breaking the shackles of Whalid.  He exiles him and his family, the caveat being the Whalid's son will be the eventual death of Nasir.
Once again, no sin rolls!

In scene 16 Amit is approached by a young man who wants to work in the Aerie.  Amit cannot recognize his own bastard son Asad, who is now going by the name Rasheed.  Asad now sees his father treating Abdul the way that he always wanted to be treated, like a true son.  Abdul is immediately suspicious of Rasheed and brings a case to Amit accusing him of not being who he says he is.  In the end Rasheed admits to lying to get the job but is not discovered as Asad.  Asad does immediately act by shoving Abdul out of the aerie window breaking his back and paralyzing him.  Infuriating Asad even more, Amit relinquishes his position and head falconer in order to now take care of his crippled "son".
There were three sin rolls for the scene.

In the last scene for the night, 17, Diego has amassed many many riches and many many women.  His religious mentor comes to him to confront him about his sins.  He immediately calls in for dancers and starts tearing away their scarfs.  Diego then states that he so rarely is at home and is always off to war so he needs to enjoy himself while here.  We immediately jump to a scene with him at war.  His forces have been defeated and he is completely surrounded by a christian commander and his troops.  He had paid off the enemy commander and the commander slaughters his own troops.
There are 6 sin rolls for the scene, leading to Diego going from Novice to Veteran.
While he is riding through the desert, in a fevered dream, christian troops start passing by him paying him no attention.  Each tosses a coin at him.  As he eventually is buried underneath the coins he sees the christian hordes destroying his city.
We ended the session with Diego returning home and Faiz promoting him to head commander of the forces, with a very large stipend, for his bravery in single handedly besting the enemy forces.
We ended the game with 13 discord.  Two players have 1 weariness and one player has one zeal and one still with 2.
One comment that came from the game was a request for more timeline type events.

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On 4/11/2008 at 5:34pm, wunderllama wrote:
RE: Re: [Thou Art but a Warrior] The Fall of a Kingdom

Travis:

Thanks for the update. It sounds like things are going well!

By more timeline events, do you mean more examples of events that could happen in the text? Or having more than four Discord events? If the latter, what was the reasoning?

Thanks,
~Anna

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On 4/11/2008 at 5:44pm, SaintandSinner wrote:
RE: Re: [Thou Art but a Warrior] The Fall of a Kingdom

Well poo... I wish I could get my group to play this it looks pretty hot.  Oh well (fumes silently in a corner).

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On 4/14/2008 at 8:47pm, Adam Dray wrote:
RE: Re: [Thou Art but a Warrior] The Fall of a Kingdom

Hello, Anna.

I played Diego, and I was the one who wanted more events.

I don't feel like four events really does anything. They seem to come so slowly that there is no discernible movement in the fiction because of it and, thus, little to react to.

Admittedly, this desire might be the result of some of my pretty strong Simulationist leanings and wishful drift on my part, but it needn't be.

I guess the question you need to answer for your design (not merely for my demanding curiosity) is what are the purpose of the events? I would think that the events may serve three purposes:

1. Events may evoke elements of the new Moorish setting. By this, I mean that the events are setting color (not situation) that the players may ignore at will. That is, the events don't alter the narrative.

2. Events offer new situations to move "the story" along. "The story" is in scare quotes because it doesn't exist. The players are creating the story here, so the events may be just color for the players to weave into their narrative.

3. Treated as bangs, events may offer significant choices to the players by putting their characters in real quandaries. This only works if the bangs actually have teeth sharp enough to force the player to make a meaningful choice (even if the meaningful choice is to do nothing). If all the players can ignore the event, its teeth are very dull, indeed, and I'd consider the event just color (as #2, above).

I'd like to see #3 in play, but the events come pretty rarely in play and they don't have teeth when they do arrive. I didn't feel that my character was connected to these events in any real way. In fact, I didn't feel that my character was that connected to the setting, really, so that might be part of it. I had no stake in the fate of my countrymen (but I had created a pretty selfish character, granted). I'm not sure if the other players really felt the imposing danger of the enemy, either. Travis should have felt it the most, having inherited the kingdom from his father, the king. Travis?

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On 4/14/2008 at 9:58pm, Ben Lehman wrote:
RE: Re: [Thou Art but a Warrior] The Fall of a Kingdom

I don't feel like four events really does anything. They seem to come so slowly that there is no discernible movement in the fiction because of it and, thus, little to react to.

Hey, Adam, can you expand on this? Some of the events (rioting, siege) seem pretty non-ignorable to me. Is it that they don't do anything because you don't care about rioting and sieges? Or is it that they don't do anything because these things are already happening?

My experience, playing TABAW, was that every time an event came up we went "oh, that's a natural next scene" or "oh, we just did that in the last scene anyway."

yrs--
--Ben

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On 4/14/2008 at 11:09pm, Adam Dray wrote:
RE: Re: [Thou Art but a Warrior] The Fall of a Kingdom

Let me start by saying that it's very possible that I didn't connect with these events because I missed the first session (I jumped in during the second). Maybe the other three players were feeling, like, oh no! the infidel's army has crossed our borders!, but I just didn't care.

So, on one hand, there's this "my character doesn't care about this -- and why do I think that?" thing going on in my head. I mean, shouldn't he care? Perhaps it's cuz I made this priest and somewhere twisted him into this corrupt, greedy asshole. Part of me wonders if there should be more hooks in the system to make me care, though. And maybe that just means some strong play advice to have the Infidel/Mistaken hammer the events home for players during their scenes. Maybe it already says that (Travis taught us the rules; I haven't read them).

On the other hand, I made a character who doesn't care about anything but himself, so that's pretty much saying that I don't care either. Maybe I would have ignored the events to make a statement.

But I felt like most of our scenes were focused on personal issues that had very tenuous ties, if any, to the events.

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On 4/15/2008 at 1:18am, Ben Lehman wrote:
RE: Re: [Thou Art but a Warrior] The Fall of a Kingdom

Hey, Adam: Yeah, I dunno. I feel like, with Polaris (and TABAW) you are required to play a character who is sworn to save their people from destruction. You can be somewhat self-interested, but you do have to be sworn to your people from destruction: and the NPCs should be hammering that.

You describe your guy as a "priest." Is he Christian clergy? Is he not, specifically, a knight? Is he not, specifically, Muslim?

'cause, yeah, that would be problematic. It's like showing up in Polaris and being all "I'm going to play a demon."

yrs--
--Ben

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On 4/15/2008 at 1:20am, Adam Dray wrote:
RE: Re: [Thou Art but a Warrior] The Fall of a Kingdom

He's a Muslim. He's just a bad priest. I made my character in a great hurry and without a whole lot of guidance. I probably just made a character that I should not have made.

I'm still curious to hear if Travis felt strongly connected to his mission of "fight the Christians." I suspect he is.

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On 4/15/2008 at 1:20pm, travisfarber wrote:
RE: Re: [Thou Art but a Warrior] The Fall of a Kingdom

Sorry guys, I don't have time to respond right now.  I'll try to respond more fully in a little bit.  To quickly answer your question I do feel like my "kingdom" has not been threatened, and the little bit that it has I haven't cared about.  I think that this mainly comes down to the infidel not pushing the issue enough, though. 

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On 4/15/2008 at 1:22pm, Adam Dray wrote:
RE: Re: [Thou Art but a Warrior] The Fall of a Kingdom

I think, before our next game, we should remind everyone that when they're playing the Infidel, they should be pushing not just personal character buttons, but thematic buttons, as well.

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On 4/15/2008 at 5:07pm, travisfarber wrote:
RE: Re: [Thou Art but a Warrior] The Fall of a Kingdom

Adam, I would agree entirely.  I think we're telling a good story right now, but everything is very focused on small personal issues.  We haven't faced any consequences in regards to the setting on the whole. 

Since I'm the only one that has read the text, I don't think that has helped with getting into the setting as opposed to just their own personal story either. 

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On 4/17/2008 at 8:41pm, wunderllama wrote:
RE: Re: [Thou Art but a Warrior] The Fall of a Kingdom

Travis and Adam,

Thanks for the feedback. I didn't get to check back on this thread due to house hunting and computer problems, so I'm just reading this now.

I feel like Ben did a pretty good job of filling in for me, in that Ben said a lot of things I would have said. But I'll also add this:

What happens in the Discord Events isn't really all that important. What the Discord Events represent is a turning point. It's a way of compressing events that happened over the course of one hundred and fifty years into a few sessions of gaming. The collapse of Muslim Spain happened over centuries, but in order to really relate to the tragedy things have to be compressed. So each Discord Event represents a transition in the state of affairs: Muslim dominance > Parity of strength > Christian dominance > Eradication of the Taifa. These states are also tied to mechanical advantages and disadvantages.

So I'm not really sure how to implement more Events, because I'm not sure how to break down the collapse into more steps and still have them be meaningful and tragic transitions when they happen in play. Also, I'm not sure how I would go about further breaking down the progression of mechanical advantages and disadvantages.

Does that make sense?

Also, I don't know that having your game focus on more personal issues means that you're "playing it wrong". In that situation, the disconnect between bigger Discord Events and the more personal issues of the Knights is just showing that sometimes situations go to shit when you're not really paying attention to them, and all of a sudden you look around and realize everything's fallen down around your ears. That being said, your characters should still feel a sense of connection to the taifa. After all, each Knight has sworn an oath to protect his people - and one of the central themes of TABAW that I hope will come out in play is the tragedy of the destruction of such an advanced civilization by essentially uncivilized people.

Thank you, though, for your feedback. I'll definitely reflect on this. And if Travis does get time to respond more fully, I'd be interested in hearing his thoughts.
~Anna Kreider

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On 5/3/2008 at 6:15pm, travisfarber wrote:
RE: Re: [Thou Art but a Warrior] The Fall of a Kingdom

Scene 18(Faiz)

Taking the advise of his adviser Diego, Faiz agrees to raise taxes to fight off the Christian invaders.  When the people refuse he sends the military to collect by force if necessary.  Unfortunately, a famine hits the people shortly thereafter and the peasants start revolting.  Faiz sends his troops into Christian lands to get food for his people, but before they can return the Christians feed his people for him.  A revolt starts and when the military is forced to fight against there own families they begin to desert. 
There were 7 sins in this scene, 2 resulting in failures.  The discord became 15 and the Taifa of Zaragoza fell to the invading horde.

Scene 19 (Nasir)

During the battles for Zaragoza we start with Nasir being offered terms of surrencder from Rodrigo.  Instead he decides it is time for them to make a stand.  He is able to decimate the Christians, but his army is forced to retreat listening to the sounds of the peasants working their supply train being beaten, killed, and taken as spoils of war. 
3 sins, no fairlures

Scene 20 (Amit)

With Zaragoza under siege Rasheed comes to Amit and warns him.  Abdul tells Amit to leave him that they both cannot make it out alive.  Amit grabs his crippled son and hids him in a wheelbarrow as he races him out the city.  As he just exits the city a stray arrow from the Arabic forces lands in the wheelbarrow killing Abdul.  Amit bellows in anger, renouncing Allah chopping off his beard with his blade into battle.  Rasheed finds him in the fighting and tells him he is his bastard son.  He also tells him that he has failed him, his county, and Allah. 
4 sins (2 failures)
As Amit sees the capital burn he sees the face of satan in the flames and he knows Allah is no longer with them.

Scene 21 (Diego)

After the Emir left Zaragoza Diego tries to keep the men organized.  Rodrigo rides up to his house and makes demands of surrender.  Rodrigo refuses.  Diego runs away from his house and family as it is burned to the ground leaving nothing but screams to be heard. 
6 sins(3 failures)

This put us to 20 Discord and to Epilogues.

Faiz agreed to surrender to Christians in exchange for exile.  While on the boat to the island of his exile he is murdered by his own people.  He gives a prayer to Allah and asks for forgiveness for his many mistakes.

Nasir escapes into Granada, becoming the capt of the Guard until he is killed by the son of Whalid(fighting for the Christians)

Amit wanders through the hills and starts to have Christian visions.  He begs forgiveness of Asad but is cut down by the boy.

Diego escapes to Africa renouncing Allah.  He only has some servants and money, which never make him happy.

Message 25865#251132

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On 5/5/2008 at 2:15am, wunderllama wrote:
RE: Re: [Thou Art but a Warrior] The Fall of a Kingdom

Travis: Awesome.

Message 25865#251165

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