So, this is part 3 of the whole "populating the cold southern reaches of Near" series. Hopefully, it'll provoke similar interest to the vulfen and dwarf threads which have been going on recently.

Originally, when designing my homebrew version of Goren, I was really strongly drawn to play with the themes of Norse mythology. At one point, I was contemplating the inclusion of giants as a big local threat to the people of Goren, but I kept gravitating back towards the "No gods, no monsters, just people" creed of The Shadow of Yesterday. As such, though I had some fun ideas about them as local threats, and the interesting Secrets that could crop up in a culture that had to deal with giants, I decided it was a mistake I couldn't abide to have generic "baddie" monsters. Even if they were expressions of primal elemental force, they needed to be about something more interesting, for any number of reasons. Obviously, rampaging monsters simply don't contribute all that much to TSOY's narrative structure; they're no more or less interesting to a Key-bearing character than a hurricane or an avalanche or wildfire. Clearly, something had to be done. A lot of growth came out of the dwarf and vulfen ideas, but I don't feel the idea is quite done, so I'm offering it up here for scrutiny, criticism, or brainstorming.

In essence, I'm thinking of giants as being defined by two major mechanics: Volatility and Enormity. Volatility is the social/supernatural one, and I think the easier to phrase in 2nd edition TSOY terms, so I'll start by presenting that. Enormity takes care of the purely physical aspect of the giant's hugeness, and I don't know how well I'll do explaining it to a 2nd ed audience, so we'll see how that goes when we come to it. For right now, suffice to say that Enormity is their Species ability, and why that's the case will be explained below, in the appropriate section.

Volatility
These days, I conceive of giants as being part of the greater "human dilemma" on Near, meaning that its potentially possible for a human to become a giant and vice versa. The key emotional aspect which divides giants from everyone else is the raw unbridled passion they feel for everything around them. Giants find it impossible to have a "small" emotional response to things--that which makes them angry sends them into a killing fury, anything which makes them remorseful brings on uncontrolled weeping and maudlin antics, and things which please them leave them ecstatic and gushing. They are unbridled and passionate, and capable of vacillating wildly from one extreme to the next. With their hearts on their sleeves, giants are an unruly lot, but they typically think of themselves before anyone else.

Mechanically, I'm considering representing this through an oscillating pool point mechanic I call Volatility. At the beginning of any scene, a giant makes a Volatility check for any of his Pools which are not currently empty or full. Basically this involves rolling a Fudge Die for each pool, resulting in either a -1, +0, or +1 change to that pool's current points. (For those playing 1st edition TSOY, this is easily accomplished with a result of -1 on a "1" or "2", +o on a "3" or "4", and +1 on a "5" or "6", naturally).

When two or more giants are in the same scene together, this Volatility check happens twice (but only twice). Essentially, their giant egos rub up against each other, and can result in even more wild oscillation of the pools. The results are cumulative, with potentially anywhere from -2 to +2 being the final result (with -1, 0, and +1 still options).

This mechanic doesn't get used on any pool which is at 0 (which means you have to go for normal refreshes, and not just avoid that aspect of the game by hoping your Volatility will replenish your pool for you), nor on any pool which is currently full (I don't want to wildly penalize players who are refreshing before something important and already finding their pools dwindle as a result).

This idea of changing natures and shifting moods seemed to be a resonant one to play with when thinking about giants in classic mythology, which are often depicted as if they were incarnations of natural forces. It lends itself to a number of interesting comparisons, making the giants stormy by their very nature, which felt fun. Additionally, it leads to all sorts of interesting situations where you have giants consistently on the prowl, as their pools are sometimes depleting faster than other people's. If we assume that a giant seeking a Vigor refresh requires substantially more food than you or I, we can see why a mob of giants lends itself to raids on human and goblin communities, with giants tearing the place apart looking for the sustenance they require.

It lends itself to some fun Secret ideas. Here are some of the ones I'm kicking around.

Secret of the Baleful Eye
Your glare can manifest the power of your Volatility, dealing harm to others as they sizzle and burn, or even go mad under the deadly effects of your eye. This acts as a ranged attack resolved with your Enormity ability; however, a Volatility die is rolled to determine the pool associated with the Harm dealt: 1-2 is a Instinct-based ability, 3-4 is Reason-based, and 5-6 is Vigor-based. Cost: 1 Instinct per use.

Secret of Friction
Your mere presence disturbs the atmosphere and environmental conditions around you as your Volatility manifests physically. You might be surrounded by a corona of rippling heat, wreathed in sparking lightning, or blanket the area in icy cold. Spend 2 Vigor to make this effect manifest in the world around you for the duration of the scene. It is treated as a +1 natural weapon, but every attack requires a Volatility die check: if the result is -1, you do not apply, the weapon, if it is "0" you treat the weapon normally, whereas if it is +1, the weapon’s rating is considered +2 for that attack. Cost: 2 Vigor per scene.

Secret of Shifting Moods
Your turbulent emotions allow you to radically shift your current makeup, cycling through the amount of pool points you currently have. Any time you are Volatile, you can spend 1 each of Instinct, Reason, and Vigor. You now “cycle” your pool points—you have as many Reason as you previously had Instinct, as many Vigor as you previously had Reason, and has many Instinct as you previously had Vigor. You can spend 1 each of those pool points to cycle them again, if you wish. Any current points which would exceed the maximum rating of the new pool when cycled are lost. Cost: 1 Instinct, 1 Reason, 1 Vigor.

Secret of Shifting Emptiness
When you spend 1 Instinct, 1 Reason, and 1 Vigor to cycle your tempers with the Secret of Shifting Mood, you instead cycle the defecit in pool points, as opposed to the current amount. For instance, if your Reason and Instinct were at maximum but you had only 1 point left of Vigor, you would end up with your Vigor and Reason being one less than total, and your Instinct pool empty (due to the pool point cost of the Secret). Prerequisite: Secret of Shifting Moods. Cost: 1 Instinct, 1 Reason, 1 Vigor.

Secret of Volatile Health
You roll a Volatility die any time you would recover from Harm, affecting the total points of Harm you recover from the check. Your Volatility die cannot reduce the results of a successful recovery check to 0 points of Harm; any successful check means you always recover at least 1 point.

Secret of the Mogul
You are the chieftain of a giant mob, referred to as a mogul by your fellow giants. You receive a bonus die on Orate checks to lead the giants in your mob. Additionally, any time you and a giant in your mob make a Volatility check at the same time (such as at the beginning of a scene), you can swap the results of the Volatility check with that giant to take the more favorable one, if you wish.

Some of those may be a little confusing. If anyone has a suggestion for how to clean up the language on the Shifting secrets, I'm all ears.

The result of these Volatility issues, and particularly the second Volatility check required when a group of giants are present, leads some giants to solitary lives, as they try and avoid the chaotic presence of their kin. These giants pursue a state they call Serenity, wherein they leash their turbulent emotions to something else around them. Some giants decry this as the first step in a giant's diminishing towards the weak human state, but some Serene giants insist that the calm they find can endure indefinitely without a loss of their stature or strength.

Some examples of this mechanic are:

Secret of the Refuge
You can overcome your Volatility by forming a spiritual bond with a specific location, such as a grove of trees, a sprint or pool, a circle of standing stones, or even a human village. So long as you have visited your Refuge at least once during the day, you do not need to check your pools for Volatility at the beginning of each scene, and are considered Serene. If you are denied access to your Refuge for more than a day, you must make a special Will check each time you refresh a pool; if the Success Level of the check does not equal the number of points regained during the refresh, you become Volatile once more. Massive disruptions in your Refuge can shatter your Serenity, including violence, mass deaths, or other manifestations. Additionally, any time a Volatile giant enters your Refuge, you must make a contested Will check against that giant's Enormity, or you lose your Serenity and become Volatile once more. Special: While Serene, you cannot use any Secret which requires a Volatility die check, or any Secret which requires you to be Volatile.

Secret of the Steady Heart
You can overcome your Volatility by forming a spiritual bond with a non-giant character. So long as you have seen this individual at least once during the day, you do not need to check your pools for Volatility at the beginning of each scene, and are considered Serene. If you are denied access to this person for more than a day, you must make a special Will check each time you refresh a pool; if the Success Level of the check does not equal the number of points regained during the refresh, you become Volatile once more. If this person is harmed or endangered, you must make a Will check to resist becoming Volatile, losing your Serenity; this check takes a penalty die when the character you are bound to is Bloodied, and two if that character is Broken. Special: While Serene, you cannot use any Secret which requires a Volatility die check, or any Secret which requires you to be Volatile.

Hopefully, these provide interesting narrative hooks for giant characters, and become ways of stepping around the Volatility mechanic which can still be easily challenged by PC's and Storyguide alike, forcing those players who are interested in doing so to fight to maintain their Serenity. It hopefully also becomes another interesting link between giants and the natural world; if the chaotic giant embodies the storm or wildfire, then there's a feel that the contemplative giant becomes more like the mountain, forest, or lake. It also means that more social giants are a real possibility, allowing for great fun like playing the giant protector of a small community.

Volatility and the Giant Condition
Love and placing another before oneself provide one of the major ways to escape the giant condition, and a giant who truly falls in love may find himself diminishing towards the human state, though such things are the stuff of legend. Most giants find it simply impossible to maintain as constant and devoted as the human concept of love requires. Giants are capable of mating with each other, and produce litters of their offspring in the process, who inevitably squabble with their brothers and sisters, and argue with their parents. Giant mobs are sometimes little more than two parents and their children, or a group of giant brothers who argue with each other but can't stand to be without each other's company. Sooner or later, these mobs tear each other apart due to petty differences, resulting in giants who wander alone for years, or find their way into new mobs of their own.

It is also said that some humans become giants, typically because of unrestrained emotions which lead them to forsake the company of humans and go off into the wilds of Near. Just as often, these people are actually driven out by their communities rather than going willingly, and more than one fable tells of a wicked man or woman who became giants and brought terror and suffering upon their old villages.

Giant lifespans were once quite long, but something about the Year of Shadow has changed this. Giants who had lived for untold centuries before the coming of the Skyfire found themselves growing older and more frail. Shocked at the discovery that some of the eldest and most formidable of their kind were dying off, some giants railed at the settlements of smaller creatures around them, suspecting trickery or evil magics. Others seized the opportunities created by the power vacuum to claim new territory for themselves, or to take over mobs which had been run by their elders. Some giants simply banded together to face this new threat. The result has been a sudden rise in the birth rate among the species, even as some of the eldest fear for their long lives. No answer has yet been found to the increased decrepitude and shortened spans of giantkind. The wisest among the species fear that, for some reason, they are dying out.

May giants regard themselves as true "Children of Near," and believe in a personal link to the cycle of the world, including its seasons and changes. As such, their attitudes on smaller species such as humans, goblins, dwarves, and vulfen range from mild irritation with such tiny unimportant creatures to outright benevolent perception of themselves as "shepherds" for the small species of Near. Most giants have an instinctive dislike and intolerance for elves, however; even the most simple giant can sense that there is something alien and strange about an elf, and giant loremasters call the elves the "Children of Far" and regard them as dangerous invaders, an unwelcome presence in their lands. For their part, elves rarely look favorably upon giants, either, considering them undisciplined, boorish, and dangerous.

Enormity
Giants, by their very nature, ought to be large. I'm thinking that the species actually varies in height, with smaller ones coming in around the 10 feet mark, and the greatest (and most ancient) of their number pushing well over 20. Luckily, I don't think this is as hard to simulate in TSOY terms as one might believe. I think it can be done with their Species Ability and mandatory Species Secret, and just accomplished like this:

Species Ability: Enormity (V)
This ability represents a giant’s impressive size and stature. It can be used to perform any physical task or labor which would normally require an entire group of smaller beings, such as bracing a heavy door, smashing down a wall, or lifting a laden cart. It can be chained to certain abilities, such as Rough Crafts checks to build a house, or a Bash and Hold check when fighting a large group of people at once. However, it does not, in and of itself, provide a giant with any special bonuses when taking on single opponents in combat, who aren't any easier to hit just because they're smaller.

Secret of Massive Stature
You tower over human-sized beings, making you more formidable than other creatures. Your huge size and hardy lifestyle grants you a bonus die on all Endure checks. You can add your Enormity rating to your Endure for the purposes of figuring out how much harm prompts your first Stay Up check. For instance, if you have an Endure of 3, and an Enormity of 2, you never need to make a Stay Up check until your Harm reaches 8 or above (3 from Endurance, plus 2 from Enormity, plus 2 as the lowest possible result with two dice = 7, so harm checks begin at 8). This provides no benefit when actually making the Stay Up check (though your bonus die for Endure checks does). Additionally, you have a bonus die on all Intimidate checks against smaller creatures.

However, you take penalty dice to your impressive size, on the following types of checks:
* being stealthy, unseen, or unheard
* handling small or delicate things
* fitting into small spaces or walking across small ledges
Special: This secret is mandatory for giant characters.

Here, of course, is where some thinking is in order. This is written with a slightly modified version of the scaling numerical harm system of 1st edition TSOY, which is what I and my group still play. In those situations, rather than Harm being tracked as it is currently, it was a number which increased, forcing you to make "Stay Up checks" that beat it. This means, for instance, that you'd have an Endure score between 1-10, and you'd be adding the results of two six-sided dice to the result. In general, you'd never need to make a Stay Up check when your Harm was anything lower than 2 + your appropriate innate ability, because there was just no way you could lose. You can't roll lower than "2" when adding two six-sided dice, naturally. The consequence of failing a Stay Up check is the Bloodied condition, followed the Broken condition.

So, a typical character with an Endurance of 3 never even bothers to check to Stay Up until his Harm reaches 6. This application of Enormity provides an additional "buffer", which means a giant character could worry less about Vigor-based Harm until it got up to more impressive ranges. Of course, it also means that at the level where he's finally forced to make a Stay Up check, he's increasingly likely to fail it, as the Harm has skyrocketed up to impressive levels. But that might make for a charming "The bigger they are, the harder they fall..." scenario, in which one lucky shot suddenly seems to finally stagger the giant.

The benefit of keeping the mechanics behind Enormity and Stature distinct from the Volatility stuff is that it allows a giant to pursue the Serenity options I discussed above and still seem like a great big formidable mountain of a being when it comes down to it. Benevolent giants can still carry cows around for their community, which would be a trickier thing to pull off if we moved Volatility to some sort of Species Ability, despite the temptation. But maybe someone will have some sort of breakthrough on this, and insist that I'm doing it all backwards and sideways, in which case I'm quite interested.

There's more fluff, naturally, and a bit more crunch, but I figure that's already a big amount of stuff for people to look at. If those two major aspects resolve themselves, I think the rest is pretty easy.

Comments? Questions? Criticisms? Suggestions?

-shadowcourt (aka Josh)

The idea of people with "larger-than-life" feelings potentially becoming, well, large, is one with a good deal of potential and nifty symbolism. However it does break with some of the principles governing species differentiation in Near that I like best.

Specifically, all the other species, including our shiny new dwarves and vulfen, are structured around the question, "what do they love, and how do they relate to it?" I'd love to see a gigantic angle that takes it's point of departure there.

Troels,

That's not quite an angle I'd ever really considered, when looking at the other species. I mean, I'd taken it for granted that romantic love was the domain of the human species, but the way you're extending it, does it work out something like this:

Dwarves love... their families, I'm guessing, or the greater goal their families are bent towards?
Goblins love... the thing they're addicted to?
Elves love... themselves? Their own ego?

And the ratkin and vulfen stand outside of this relationship, because of their inherent non-humanity? Or is the implication that the ratkin "loves" his litter, and the vulfen "loves" the social hierarchy of the pack?

It's an interesting way of thinking about it, I suppose, though it might diminish slightly what we mean by "love" when we talk about humans. Particularly from the goblin and elf write-ups, I'd always regarded "love" as the willingness to forsake yourself for the good of someone or something else. Which is why the religious aspect has always been an interesting element as well for humans, as its about commitment to something greater than yourself which is hard to always define in purely pragmatic terms. I'm not sure a goblin would forsake or sacrifice himself for an addiction in the same way that a human might for religion or love. And I don't know how one frame it in terms of the elf at all, in that case: can you sacrifice your ego for your ego? It's sort of a circular argument.

Or did you mean something else with the whole love aspect?

I definitely think you're on to something about the giants needing more focus and definition. I just want to make sure we're sharing the same terminology when discussing it.

-shadowcourt (aka Josh)

shadowcourt wrote:
Dwarves love... their families, I'm guessing, or the greater goal their families are bent towards?
Goblins love... the thing they're addicted to?
Elves love... themselves? Their own ego?
<snip> ...is the implication that the ratkin "loves" his litter, and the vulfen "loves" the social hierarchy of the pack?

It's an interesting way of thinking about it, I suppose, though it might diminish slightly what we mean by "love" when we talk about humans.

Troels,

I'm completely with you, re: "fantasy race as lens into some aspect of humanity", and ditto for the purposes of "romantic love transforms people" as one of TSOY's major conceits.

I like the adversarial/rivalry idea. Its sort of what I was driving at with some of the Volatility ideas, but it makes it more explicit right up front. It does raise some questions about giant characters/players and their interactions with other players and groups. I don't want to encourage players to play the lone wolf to the hilt, and need to be constantly corralled by others, even with the free-form/no-party play of TSOY. It does present some "No, I still have everyone, I just hate all of *you* guys less..." potential, I suppose, which can be amusing. Similarly, rivalry can also be a great motivator to interact with characters, if you want to prove that you're better than them and make them subordinate to yourself. There's something about that which seems to fit the "giant ego" side, as well. Then again, maybe that's drifting: mastery of others isn't exactly adversarial, though holding a superior stance might well be.

Is this the right approach? I'm still not sure. I don't want to engineer a situation where giant characters simply feel one-note, and are always in bruiser/fighting roles. I know they're going to attract some of that interest through raw physical might, which is fine, but just as its theoretically possible to play a highly competent goblin or an elf who has some benevolent side to them, I don't want to limit giants too much.

To bring it back to your "what do they love, and how do they relate to it?" question, would the idea be that they love rivalry and competition? Or that they're a strange antithesis, in that almost everything grates on them, and they find it difficult to "love" anything at all?

-shadowcourt (aka Josh)

I thought you were going to do trolls next?

I find your conception of giants too fiddly in the rules department and too abstract in philosophy. Also, I want my giants to be primal, elemental beings. And I want them to have freaky magic like Balor of the Evil Eye. Having giant communities seems acceptable, though. I've been playing Shadow of the Colossus. That's just me, but here's how I'd do it:

Stature (V)
An Ability for a giant's physical size and using it. Usable for doing things that would be off-scale for humans, like reaching high places, lifting great weights, crushing puny things and breaking free of constraintment. Most giants have a pretty bad posture, which is why we're checking Stature for finding out case-by-case whether the giant is big enough: you never know how high he's going to reach when provoked. There just might be a supernatural aspect to this as well (perhaps the giant's size reflects his confidence or something, you know) in that we're just not going to be interested in a static measurement of a giant's large size when it comes to designing anti-giant weaponry or whatever; if the SG wants to say that something is "too large" for the giant, we should be talking of considerably larger scale than just a wall that's "high". You can't just measure a giant and build a wall that's just a bit higher, in other words; your craftsmanship has to go against his Stature in a normal conflict.

Secret of Gigantism
The species Secret. The giant is a force of primal, brutal, focused nature. When roused, he can cause horrible destruction: a giant may spend Vigor to infuse improvised weapons (trees, rocks, his body, whatever's handy) with weapon qualities. The bonus lasts until the giant's rampage ends. The rampage tears ligaments and breaks the giant's body, so any Harm he has at the end of the rampage goes up one level. Also, giants are fragile: a giant will only get to lower one Harm one level at the end of BDtP. Finally, the giant is prone to get caught up by his temper: whenever he is aggravated horribly or goes on a rampage, he is obligated to get the Key of Temper; if he already has that, he has to take Secret of Temper; cumulatively more successful Resist (R) checks are required to avoid the temper over time, although extended solitude and the sleep of seasons nulls the cumulative results. Cost: 1 Vigor per level of weapon quality.

Secret of Bulk
The character has one more level to his Harm track. This Secret can be gained several times as the seasons pass, but each time the character has to succeed in a Stature (V) check with penalty dice equal to the number of times he has gained this Secret. The first level is a Broken level, the second Wounded, the third Bashing (fuck me if I remember the English terms), and then repeat. Note that healing high-level Harm is often very difficult, if not impossible. Harm penalties from several levels of Broken accumulate normally, too. Requirements: Secret of Gigantism

Secret of the Soft Touch
Usually giants are relatively clumsy with other people due to their great size. Even being around them is prone to hurt a human, and frolicking with them is right out. A giant with this Secret has learned to act with care and gentleness among lesser creatures; he may use his Stature with Instinct instead of Vigor, and he may use a Stature (I) check as support for Abilities that require a soft touch. While the SG might normally well rule out certain kinds of interaction with smaller creatures altogether or require the target of such affections to make Ability checks against getting hurt, a giant with the gentle touch may instead check his Stature (I) to act with such care as necessary. The giant is still not going to pick human-sized locks, but he's not going to kill a child by hugging him, either, or break a door off its hinges by going through the doorway, both of which are all too common occurrences among people who have opted to withstand giants among themselves. Requirements: Secret of Gigantism

Secret of the Temper
The giant has awakened his temper, a horrid thing not long held in check, a temptation the giant might consider an alien being in himself in his more lucid moments. Giant legends speak of the First and the Ancient: the Ancient had no temper, while the First were born with it. As it stands now, young giants awaken their temper in some traumatic event that gashes their identity, potentially forever. Most giant societies would not consider a giant without his temper nothing but a child; the existence of the temper is obvious, for it externalizes as a slight aura a bit like what elves have, except more easily mistaken for body hair, grime or such. As for the effects: a giant with an awakened temper will cause Harm with a Stature (V) check to anybody he refreshes pools with (resistable with React (I) or such), but may also shake any effects of social conflicts by declaring rampage against any character who tries to influence the giant with social, psychological or magical means. (This latter effect negates the first-round advantage an opponent might have from the social conflict if the rampage results in BDtP.) Cost: Reason equal to check result difference to shake off social conflicts. Requirements: Key of Temper, Secret of Gigantism, rampage or other trauma.

Secret of Chaos
The character's very movement causes natural disturbance within his aura. Elven auras are suppressed in the presence of the giant, unless they succeed in a Resist (R) check against the giant's Stature (V). When the character rampages, any characters nearby have to make React (I) checks against his Stature (V) to regain their balance, akin to the effects of an earthquake. When the character is calm, other characters nearby need to succeed in React (I) or Stature (I) checks or suffer level 1 Harm per scene from accidental fits and starts of the giant. Requirements: Secret of the Temper

Secret of the Evil Eye
The character's eye holds such power that it kills on sight. Anybody seen by the eye is slain, unless he succeeds in Resist (R) against the giant's Stature (V). (BDtP might concern itself with hiding from the gaze, or with withstanding the image of the First and the insight it imparts.) The effect is in only one eye. Requirements: Secret of the Temper

Secret of Colossal Size
While we don't generally measure giants as mere mortals, this character is of an old breed, or perhaps one of the first himself: while other giants are reasonably small so as to interact with humans in many ways, this character's size is such that he strides over buildings, dams rivers with his arms and such. His fall causes the earth (and himself) to break, and so on. What this means in rules-terms is that for the most part the SG should stop stop considering issues of height, reach and size in a scene with this giant; if he's there, he can reach it. Likewise, the giant is eligible to have non-contested leverage, which means that some of his immediate actions simply cannot be averted on human scale: a human cannot wrestle him in any meaningful manner, for example, and couldn't have such stakes in conflict. However, such great size has its price: the character cannot heal Harm via natural healing or use of Abilities. Requirements: Secret of Temper, more Secret of Bulk than other characters in the game at the moment.

Secret of the Gifting Culture
The character has learned to stay unseen and unharmed among people who fear his presence. He may refresh one point from a pool by doing some unacknowledged, lonely labor for other people: hard physical work recovers Vigor, fine detail work or making craft items recovers Instinct and setting up wards or signs of instruction might give Reason, for example. If the character gets in trouble or has to sacrifice something of his own for his good deed, recover the whole pool in question. This Secret is very common in giant society, or communities that have accepted a giant in their midst, as giants have great difficulty with living in community.

Secret of Hunger
The character may regain some pool by gorging himself: a feast will replenish his Vigor, but gathering it is an arduous task. If Vigor is already filled, the other pools all gain one point. However, the character now needs to succeed in a Resist (R) check to not gorge himself when opportunity presents itself. Requirements: Key of Hunger, Secret of Gigantism

Secret of the Ancient
The character's aura has a calm frisson. A giant with temper has to overcome the character in a direct contest of wills (Resist vs. Resist) to act against his will. Requirements: Secret of Immortality

OK, that last one is just spoilage. Usually I'd leave this kind of stuff to be explored in game.

Secret of the Sleep of Seasons
The character may fall into the deep slumber of the First. The giant needs to be calm and comfortable to do this, and needs to succeed in a Resist (R) check to decide for himself to sleep or not (which might mean that a character with this Secret could fall into the Sleep of Seasons at the SG's call when he's tired). A sleeping giant will be considered a part of the landscape by any animals and vegetation, and will become like unto a mound of earth as time passes. Should he be recognized for a giant by the short generations of men, the character may be awakened easily enough by causing some harm to him. Figuring out whether a giant is dead or sleeping is far from certain, as the giant's breathing and heart are so shallow as to take a season or more to act. The giant needs not air, warmth, water nor sustenance in his sleep, and will not age, although he continues to grow slowly. When awakened, the giant will be hungry, but needs no sleep or rest for a time equal to how long he slept. The giant cannot awaken himself unless some disturbance is nearby, in which case the giant's player may try a Resist (R) check to awaken. (Assume a sufficient disturbance once per week for habitated areas, once per year for wilderness and once per decade for the far reaches, unless you have some other ideas.) A sleeping giant will recover from all Harm at the speed of 1 level per season of sleep, and may spend Advances on anything appropriate to his memories as he dreams, at the speed of one Advance per year. Stature and Vigor expenditures are explicitly allowed regardless of context as the giant grows in his sleep; anything mental learned during the dream may, however, be lost at the end of it: the character only regains Advances equal to a Resist (R) check in cultural and mental crunch when he awakens, while the rest of the Advances to return to him. Requirements: Secret of Gigantism, and not being a one-eye.

Secret of the Giant Dream
The character may, when sleeping a giant sleep (that is, a sleep caused by a giant Secret), have a scene framed for himself as he dreams. Everything in a giant dream is to scale with the giant himself as if he were human, and he has no Stature (V) or related Secrets in the dream. If other characters appear in the dream, their players play these dream figments; their own characters are not affected by the dream. The character may refresh pools normally and gain experience points in the dream, as well as learn new information, but may not heal Harm. However, any Harm he suffers will drain from appropriate pools instead of going to the Harm track, draining pool equal to Harm level. The giant dream is framed by the SG and will form a coherent narrative with the last dream scene only if the character succeeds in increasingly better Resist (R) checks. A dream shaman trying to manipulate the giant dream has the giant's Stature (V) as an additional hurdle. Dying in the dream just ends the scene. Cost: 1 pool, cumulative within the game session, split between the Pools any way the SG desires. Requirements: Secret of Gigantism, being in a giant dream.

Secret of Fitful Sleep
The character may gain Vigor equal to a Stature (V) check by turning in his sleep. This causes a Level 3 Harm, however, and may reveal the giant's resting place as he disturbs his environment. Failure in the check causes the character to awaken from his sleep, hungry and uncomfortable. Requirements: Secret of the Sleep of Seasons

Secret of the Encompassing Dream
The character's dreams influence the world in a subconscious manner. Each scene played in the giant dream causes at the end of the scene a pool of dice equal to any pool spent during the scene to form. The pool sticks around until the next dream by the giant, and may be spent by the player as either bonus or penalty dice for anything related to the dream in other scenes of the game. Even strenuous or symbolic connections are fine, but the SG may limit the pool expenditure to just one die if he doesn't like the connection. Mighty giants with this Secret might become something closest to a real god Near would know as they dream of the places and communities they knew in their awareness; one explanation of the inexplicable events surrounding Absolon's Tomb in far Maldor would certainly be that Absolon himself was a giant... Requirements: Secret of the Giant Dream, Secret of the Temper

The last three here are really just to make it feasible to play sleeping giants as PCs. Not that they can't learn to become dream shamans, even within their dreams, mind. Also, Near crunch without a contradictory Absolon legend I know not ;)

<CONTINUED IN NEXT POST>

<CONTINUED FROM LAST POST>

Secret of the Sleep of Rebirth
The character's story is not at an end when his bulk stops breathing. The giant's corpse will slowly become part of the landscape of the earth where he lays, but his spirit still lives. The character may buy this Secret at the moment of his death (an instinctual flash of realization as it is), or may have learned it beforehand from somebody who has undergone the process of rebirth. Only giants who have awakened their temper (that is, Key of Temper) may be reborn, for only their spirit is strong enough. At the moment of death the character makes a Stature check, which needs to succeed for the rebirth to run its course. The rebirth happens within the soil of the giant's body, and thus might be stopped by completely destroying the body or the place it becomes; doing such would require knowledge of a rather esoteric kind, though, as well as destruction magic or a major work-force, due to the size of most giants.

• If the character dies at peace and chooses to let go of his temper (as per the Key of Temper), and succeeds in his Stature check, then he will be reborn in human form: remove the Stature Ability and the Secret of Gigantism, leaving any other crunch dormant. It takes seasons, but the character will eventually come out of the hill that became of his former body, leaving his stony womb behind.
• If the character dies on a rampage and succeeds in his Stature check, he will be reborn a one-eye: seasons pass, but his body cures, rising as a mould hard, grey and damp, breaking the hill of his rest. Replace Secret of Gigantism with Secret of the One-Eyed.
• If the character dies on a rampage and fails his Stature check, the death is final.
• If the character dies at peace and fails his Stature check, the character will not awaken, but will go into giant sleep forever or until his dying place is destroyed.
• If the character is a one-eye, he may only use this Secret when dying on a rampage.

A character that reborns successfully loses this Secret. The character is in giant sleep until his rebirth actually happens, following the rules for the Sleep of Seasons (even one-eyes, who normally don't sleep). Specifically, his rebirth requires the successful Resist (R) check and some disturbance, or specific effort to injure him. Requirements: Key of Temper, Secret of Gigantism

Secret of the One-Eyed
The species Secret for a different strain of giant not of human-stock at all. The one-eyes apparently do not procreate or eat, and only rarely speak. They are immortal and require nothing to sustain them. They are normally not player characters, being closer to beasts, are not of flesh nor bone, knowing no regrets or fears. Interchangeable with Secret of Gigantism as regards pre-requisites for other stuff. One-eyes do not lower Harm at the end of BDtP at all, for they do not heal normally. The one-eye has a similar rampage as a giant, except that he suffers not of the aggravated Harm at the end of it.

Secret of Cyclopean Mysteries
The character blinds one of his eyes, and is thus eligible for learning one-eye secrets. He gains a bonus die for interacting with one-eyes, but suffers a penalty die for situations where depth-perception would be useful. He is considered to have the Secret of the One-Eye for the purposes of pre-requisites.

Secret of the Cyclopean Forge
The character may create stone- and metal works of great finesse and size, mostly with instinct. He may learn any craft Secrets without a teacher, for it runs in his veins. One-eyes working together on a craft project may combine Pools for the purposes of paying for the craft. The character with this Secret may pay any Reason costs for crafting from his Instinct pool. The character may create rated and masterwork items as if he had the appropriate Secrets. Requirements: Secret of the One-Eyed

Secret of Cyclopean Wisdom
The character may not speak without activating this Secret. When he does speak, however, his voice carries  penalty dice for anybody foolish enough to cross the emissary of the Ancient. The dice may be turned into reusable prophecy bonus dice for extra Reason, which then persist as long as the prophecy is pertinent and may be used for the purpose of fulfilling the prophecy by anybody aware of its utterance. The number of dice is found with a Resist (R) vs. Stature (V) check, with the resistance coming from a character who is not one-eye. Cost: 1 Instinct for speaking, 1 Reason more per die for true prophecy. Requirements: Secret of the One-Eyed

Key of Hunger
Gigantic appetites, almost uncontrollable, plague the character.
1xp - Satiate yourself.
3xp - Gorge to excess.
Buyoff - Moderate yourself.

Key of Temper
Giants suffer of volatile temperaments and often lose control of themselves.
1xp - Over-react to stimulus of any kind.
2xp - Under sway of your temper, act in ways that you'll regret later.
5xp - Go on a rampage.
Buyoff - A giant can only ever really get rid of his temper in death (and potential rebirth): if the character dies in peace and in control of his faculties (that is, not in a rampage), he may buy off this Key and be reborn a human as per the Secret of the Sleep of Rebirth; otherwise, his possible rebirth comes about as a giant or a one-eye.

--

So that's one version of giants. That's actually a bit too many Secrets for a species, almost: I'm not a big fan of these hugely intricate species, a species shouldn't have so much crunch as to encourage a player to create a character who is nothing but species. I guess that if I had written that setting guide I suggested, I'd have included revised chargen with some smart guidance to the topic.

Also, Josh: I suggest thinking carefully about the social environment of your southern Near: I think that you have too many non-human species if you're going to have everything from Near running around all mixed up. At least leave out ratkin (a remarkably Maldorean phenomenon) if you can't stand losing anything else.

shadowcourt wrote:
To bring it back to your "what do they love, and how do they relate to it?" question, would the idea be that they love rivalry and competition? Or that they're a strange antithesis, in that almost everything grates on them, and they find it difficult to "love" anything at all?

Troels,

I love your giant chess player so much. Ideas like that have got to be incorporated in this notion, even though I'm also drawn to the crazy primal energy version that Eero's kicking around. There's something very "Gawain and the Green Knight" about it. You're right in that the rivalry option is the far more playable choice, given the other option. "Oscar the Grouch" is all well and good, but it gets a little one-note. And even *he* loved trash.

Some stuff about other species first, since both Eero and Troels asked about it:

I thought you were going to do trolls next?

Also, Josh: I suggest thinking carefully about the social environment of your southern Near: I think that you have too many non-human species if you're going to have everything from Near running around all mixed up. At least leave out ratkin (a remarkably Maldorean phenomenon) if you can't stand losing anything else.

Secret of Gigantism
The species Secret. The giant is a force of primal, brutal, focused nature. When roused, he can cause horrible destruction: a giant may spend Vigor to infuse improvised weapons (trees, rocks, his body, whatever's handy) with weapon qualities. The bonus lasts until the giant's rampage ends. The rampage tears ligaments and breaks the giant's body, so any Harm he has at the end of the rampage goes up one level. Also, giants are fragile: a giant will only get to lower one Harm one level at the end of BDtP. Finally, the giant is prone to get caught up by his temper: whenever he is aggravated horribly or goes on a rampage, he is obligated to get the Key of Temper; if he already has that, he has to take Secret of Temper; cumulatively more successful Resist (R) checks are required to avoid the temper over time, although extended solitude and the sleep of seasons nulls the cumulative results. Cost: 1 Vigor per level of weapon quality.

Secret of the Temper
The giant has awakened his temper, a horrid thing not long held in check, a temptation the giant might consider an alien being in himself in his more lucid moments. Giant legends speak of the First and the Ancient: the Ancient had no temper, while the First were born with it. As it stands now, young giants awaken their temper in some traumatic event that gashes their identity, potentially forever. Most giant societies would not consider a giant without his temper nothing but a child; the existence of the temper is obvious, for it externalizes as a slight aura a bit like what elves have, except more easily mistaken for body hair, grime or such. As for the effects: a giant with an awakened temper will cause Harm with a Stature (V) check to anybody he refreshes pools with (resistable with React (I) or such), but may also shake any effects of social conflicts by declaring rampage against any character who tries to influence the giant with social, psychological or magical means. (This latter effect negates the first-round advantage an opponent might have from the social conflict if the rampage results in BDtP.) Cost: Reason equal to check result difference to shake off social conflicts. Requirements: Key of Temper, Secret of Gigantism, rampage or other trauma.

Secret of Chaos
<snip> [...] When the character is calm, other characters nearby need to succeed in React (I) or Stature (I) checks or suffer level 1 Harm per scene from accidental fits and starts of the giant.

Secret of Colossal Size
<snip> [...] However, such great size has its price: the character cannot heal Harm via natural healing or use of Abilities.

Secret of the Ancient
The character's aura has a calm frisson. A giant with temper has to overcome the character in a direct contest of wills (Resist vs. Resist) to act against his will. Requirements: Secret of Immortality

OK, that last one is just spoilage. Usually I'd leave this kind of stuff to be explored in game.

Also, Near crunch without a contradictory Absolon legend I know not ;)

shadowcourt wrote:

Secret of Gigantism
Secret of the Temper

I like these, but wonder if their effects shouldn't almost be reversed, so that more Temper-like issues stand at the core of the species. That refresh mechanic is wild; you have a real gift for those, Eero.

I guess I feel a little unclear on what is and isn't a "rampage", though. We sort of drift in and out of mechanical and narrative ideas here, so I'm trying to wrap my head around what is and isn't supposed to happen.

The combination of increased Harm at the end of conflict AND no easy Harm recovery mechanic makes giants seem a little brittle to me, though maybe I'm not envisioning just how great the Secret of Bulk can be to alleviate that. Coupled with an inevitability towards taking the Secret of Temper, which also makes your refresh mechanics more painful (if only for your friends), I feel like we're stacking the deck against giants, and perhaps overly so.

Secret of Chaos
<snip> [...] When the character is calm, other characters nearby need to succeed in React (I) or Stature (I) checks or suffer level 1 Harm per scene from accidental fits and starts of the giant.

This applies to allies and friends and such as well, I take it?

Is it possible, in your conception of TSOY, to refresh pools by oneself?

Secret of Colossal Size
<snip> [...] However, such great size has its price: the character cannot heal Harm via natural healing or use of Abilities.

Okay, so, how does he heal harm at all? Am I missing something? The other effects of the Secret are really cool, and I'm more clear on them. Is your only option for recovering Harm the Sleep of Seasons for you at that point? That's a fairly lengthy mechanic for coming back from Harm, and one which would presumably require years in some cases (presumably while the other players roll on without you?). If there isn't anything else, maybe the Secret of Hunger can be revised to permit this? But maybe I'm missing another obvious source of healing?

TSOY 2nd edition has a pool expenditure to reduce Harm that explicitly doesn't require an ability check, correct? Is that what you're pointing the giants towards?

Secret of the Ancient

You've lost me there, as well. Is this a Secret for elves, just stuck in here to combat some of the aura-suppressing powers of the giants? Or are you positing an elf who's become a giant?

The Sleep of Seasons really makes me want to write some fun Secrets which bounce off of that idea. I can totally envision a Secret or two with that as a pre-req, but for active giants, who are walking around with earth and trees on their backs, and even small ecologies (birds and insects and flowers and the like, all in orbit of the walking landform that is an active giant who was once asleep). But more on that later, when I get some of the groundwork stuff resolved.

Is the implication that the Secret of the Evil Eye breaks the normal BDTP mechanics for killing named characters? I'm assuming it doesn't, and that it kills unnamed characters on sight, and can be used as a way of a character triggering BDTP when they wish to kill, but that it just deals Harm as normal. Otherwise, you're thinking of this as some sort of Secret of the Sudden Knife? I'm hoping not; thats a Secret it could be paired with to deadly effect, but even if the Evil Eye is just doing what Maldor's Destruction ability does, its already plenty powerful.

If I were to suggest cutting anything (as you remarked on the hugely intricate Species issue), it'd be the cyclopean stuff. Its neat, but I just don't get what its trying to emulate. I mean, it is referrential of cyclops mythology, don't get me wrong, I just don't know what it contributes to the species. I feel like the Secret of the One-Eyed is cagey about what's going on there, which is surprising, as the stuff you write is usually very forthcoming about story elements. What was the intention with them?

Just want to say that this stuff is very helpful for my Shadow of Eberron stuff, especially as I'm planning on running it out of Stormreach.  I'm not sure I want player Giants, but it's great to flesh them out so I know how to run them.

Eero,

I agree that the Secret of Gigantism (which I might rename; I'm a little uncomfortable with its reference to an actual physical condition that some people are afflicted with) probably should be the core mechanic, and for the reasons you suggest.

I understand your concerns about the mechanics in Secret of the Temper; as written, I'm still not sure what it does, other than creating a refresh mechanic which is so good that it seems almost essential to the giant condition. Is its intent that a giant character, even a Storyguide one, can force BDTP by declaring a rampage when people are trying to dominate him? Essentially invoking a "guaranteed BDTP" option which is normally only reserved for a character's "death" in the narrative?

Eero wrote:

The combination of increased Harm at the end of conflict AND no easy Harm recovery mechanic makes giants seem a little brittle to me, though maybe I'm not envisioning just how great the Secret of Bulk can be to alleviate that. Coupled with an inevitability towards taking the Secret of Temper, which also makes your refresh mechanics more painful (if only for your friends), I feel like we're stacking the deck against giants, and perhaps overly so.

The giants are pretty brittle, but that's a playtest issue; my intent was to make them formidable, but also make them get some epic injuries; when a giant breaks a bone, it's not a small thing. Falling down is very serious for something that large, and so on. That works to counteract the impression that a giant is the ultimate warrior character, which I dislike.

The point with the refresh penalty mechanic and the other anti-social penalties is simply that I want to make giants work for their community. I don't like the visual image of giant families sitting in their giant homes and eating their morning porridge, only to go out with their giant friends to farm the land... not working for me. A giant society should be a pained, careful and hostile thing wherein most giants spend most of their time alone in the wilds, only to meet others for important reasons and at great potential harm to themselves. (Although, I intend that refresh Harm check to be resistible; if two giants were refreshing together, I'd probably have them check their Statures against each other, so that only one took a small Harm from it.) Likewise, giants living with other folks doesn't work for me that well, either... so it's all just me plotting against happy giants, really.

Those alternative pool refreshment Secrets I designed were there specifically to allow giants to work around their problems with human intimacy; instead of interacting with others directly, give them gifts; instead of interacting at all, steal humongous amounts of foodstuffs and gorge yourself like a wild animal. Works for me.

shadowcourt wrote:
I understand your concerns about the mechanics in Secret of the Temper; as written, I'm still not sure what it does, other than creating a refresh mechanic which is so good that it seems almost essential to the giant condition. Is its intent that a giant character, even a Storyguide one, can force BDTP by declaring a rampage when people are trying to dominate him? Essentially invoking a "guaranteed BDTP" option which is normally only reserved for a character's "death" in the narrative?

Secret of the Slow Conversation

Secret of the Booming Voice

Secret of Death-Throes

Secret of Primordial Chaos

Secret of Disaster

Secret of Biomass

Secret of Greatness

Key of Awkward Size
Key of Superiority

Secret of Giant Familiarity

<CONTINUED FROM THE LAST POST>

I worry that some of the giant dream Secrets run into the "net-runner conundrum" of gaming. Simply put, you have one character who is always off in their own space, and never really appears on stage with the rest of the characters. This is less a problem in TSOY, admitedly, which doesn't have the "party up!" concerns that other games do, but it might serve as a limitation all the same. A slumbering giant's ability to write himself into a scene is negligible compared to that of other players; it seems a shame to lose out on one of the most interesting and empowering things I've seen as a TSOY gaming trend. It won't cause a problem in all games, of course, but it might be a good idea to redesign some of the Sleep of Seasons and related mechanics, so they don't pull people out of the game quite as fiercely.

Secret of the Speaking Sleep

Similarly, I think the Secret of the Encompassing Dream's pre-reqs might be wonky. "Secret of the Temper" as a pre-req seems needless, as we're assuming that most giants will have picked it up sooner or later through rampage, and I don't know what it contributes to the overall feel of the giant-in-slumber, which strikes me as being more inherently passive and mellow than some of the Temper mechanics. Particularly as Secret of Fitful Sleep, arguably the most violent of the slumber Secrets, doesn't include Secret of the Temper as a pre-req, I think it might be better to just leave Secret of the Encompassing Dream as:
Prerequisites: Secret of Gigantism, Secret of the Sleep of Seasons, Secret of the Giant Dream.

I guess I'm still on the fence about the one-eyes because they feel like a hodge-podge of ideas. You said they're the "giant's giants" and they're all about Temper, but their Secrets have this huge focus on quiet and crafts, and keep throwing around terms like "wisdom" and "prophecy." They feel far more introspective than the giant presented in the other Secrets and Keys; by looking at their Secrets, they're arguably the only giants who implicitly work together (Secret of the Cyclopean Forge). Nonetheless, they are quiet, prophetic, and industrious. They don't really feel like "giant's giants" to me at all, but sort of "alien, remote giants." B
In a game whose focus is about humanity and human things, I don't know what they care about or why they matter. They feel awfully sterile.

Maybe there are really two ideas here. A giant who puts out his own eye heads down this cyclops road, which is all about avoiding Temper instead of embracing it. After all, he potentially denies himself access to the Evil Eye (or else he's got a hell of a time, as he destroys everyone he looks at, which makes cooperation a la Secret of the Cyclopean Forge sort of bizarre to begin with), and becomes increasingly stony and attuned to his mountainous ways. He has given up an eye; his vision narrows to a single focus. He speaks less and less and becomes contemplative, mysterious, prophetic. We play up the cryptic and alien side of the cyclops role.

For the giant who dies in rampage, we head for something furious, frightening, motivated by rage, and primal. Something more akin to the fomorian legends of Ireland gone twisted into horrible nightmare. Beings whose bodies are made of stone, flame, wind, wood, or the like, and who even giants are given pause by. These are the titans, giants who cannot ever know peace, lest their bodies discorporate into the elements they are pulled together from. Every fire inevitably burns out, and storms clear, and this is the thing a titan dreads the most, that loss of integrity when nature is done spending its rage. Maybe the Secret of Primordial Chaos (above) is exclusively theirs. Perhaps they're in danger of starting to come apart (taking harm accordingly) if they ever entirely run out of Vigor, making them all the more aggressive and appetitive. These, then, are the "giant's giants"-- destructive, restless, mad, incapable of any kind of peaceful interaction.

Sooooo, what is it with the sleeping giants in Khale, their dream, the Green World and King Khale? I don't know, but I'm sure I'll find out.

Until now I was not very keen on the idea of giants, but put in relation to existing stuff on Near, it spins a wheel somewhere in my head.

Also Qek Walozi summoning a giant's spirit from his dreamscape… Elves interacting with Giants in the Dreamscapes of the Frozen South…

Thanks for kindling this.

Eero,

Thanks for the clarification around the Secret of the Temper. Your explanation makes more sense now.

I do like your fluffy-crunchy Secret combinations, though they do sometimes get wordy. Still, when we're writing like this, with free-flowing brainstorming, it makes perfect sense to do it that way. Sometimes the ideas develop simultaneously, and its good to make people clear what you're trying to convey with the mechanics of the Secret, as well.

For instance, fluff explanations like "giants don't heal slowly because they're brittle, but because they are by nature huge, slow-moving, and their injuries are epic in scope" makes it all make sense for me. I'm sure it helps other people, as well.

Eero wrote:

Secret of the Slow Conversation

Nice, although a bit mystical and therefore not everybody's cup of tea. I'd have this require Secret of the One-Eye myself, as they have special affinity with unliving things. Having performing this take a week is a nice touch, although I'd also require 1 Reason point; we should always remember to have anything and everything cost Pool, otherwise the pool mechanics don't work so well...

Secret of Death-Throes

Good, although highly situational and might be a bit too expensive. I like how this interacts with the Secret of Bulk. I suggest that the character should be able to use the points as Vigor as well; being broken is a bit hard on the guy as it is, after all, and it's a bit anticlimatic if he can't spend these points because he runs out of Vigor.

Secret of Primordial Chaos

At first a bit too easy, but the Harm penalty balances it nicely. Personally, I would add that this is done as a refreshment scene and the SG is within his pregorative to act on his usual vulpine instincts accordingly. Allowing refreshes without the accompanying plot complications / openings is not a good idea, after all, and it's always nice if some miners find the giant when he goes about bashing a mountain to pieces.

Secret of Disaster

Most excellent! I would require Secret of Chaos and Secret of Colossal Size, though; I like how something epic like this is only doable if you're really of epic size. After all, the giant without that Secret might be off-scale for humans, but breaking the earth's crust is still off-scale for him. Also, consider upping the cost to 5 Vigor.

Secret of Biomass

Again, require Secret of Colossal Size for this really off-scale stuff, I'd say... then again, it's not unreasonable to have a smaller giant also carry some biomass. Also, I love the refresh mechanic. Perhaps something like this:

Secret of Soil
<snip>

Secret of the Grove
<snip>

I removed the healing bonus mostly because colossal giants might not heal naturally. Not opposed to it per se, although I frown upon alleviating assigned weaknesses with more Secrets.

Secret of Greatness

This is a bit weird in that it completely redefines the giant, metaphysically. The human-becoming bit is especially worrysome. I'm not opposed to reinterpretation (and I like the idea), but perhaps something a bit more societal would be appropriate:

Secret of the Titan (Ability)

Secret of the Speaking Sleep

I kinda like this, although it also cheapens the remoteness of the giant when he as a character communicates directly with others. Definitely not a Secret that I'd allow a character to have without struggle. Well balanced, though, so no complaints. I'd suggest considering some form of symbolic communication, perhaps: it'd be much cooler if the giant's sleep visage only spoke in riddles or hummed, or perhaps spoke not at all. I like the idea that the giant himself is not a volitional being while in the sleeping state, as his volition is concerned with the marvelous dreams he's having. Which reminds me, a non-volitional alternative:

Secret of Heavy Dreaming
The giant's dream is so heavy that it affects the general area where he is sleeping. After each scene of the dream, the player describes shortly how the dream slowly seeps into the environment of his sleep. Thus new springs may open up, trees wilt, women bear triplets, skies grow dark as the giant's slow thoughts shape the landscape. If something pertinent is happening in the environs at the time, the SG discourses upon that shortly as well. (Normally the giant is not aware of his environs and the player is only aware of them if some other character's scene takes place nearby.) Cost: 1 Instinct Requirements: Secret of the Encompassing Dream

Also, I find it surprising that you don't discourse upon the obvious synergy this stuff has with the earlier dream shaman material. I would kinda assume that a giant intent on wielding his volition in the world once more would turn his dreams towards methods that allow him to control them and even pull others into his dreams. We should remember that the giant actually has quite a bit of opportunity in his hands, as the giant dream is so real in so many ways. Learning dream shamanism during the long sleep is far from impossible for the giant trapped in his own mind.

So, the more I think about the giants, the more I worry that we went directly to crunch on them without fully concepting what their narrative niche is all about. I like the elemental and rage stuff which has come out of them, and they definitely feel mechanically primal and powerful, but I still think about some of what Troels said about their emotional place.

While I was originally tempted to do something about their "huge emotions", and then to push them towards the same ego issues that are tied up with the elf, both of those seemed either too abstract (after all intense huge emotions could just as easily be intense love or intense desire or anything else, which trods too heavily on the human, goblin, and other motifs) or already spoken for (I don't want to wreck the id/ego/superego triangle of the goblin/human/elf trifecta, even if we complicate it some by inculding dwarves and/or giants in that).

As we've defined dwarves in terms of Family, Mission, and Tradition, and pointed the vulfen towards concepts of Predator/Prey and Dominance, I'm tempted to push the giant rampage stuff towards the idea, very specifically, of Suffering. So, here's an idea to bounce off the assembled crowd, and see what people think of it:

Consider giants as inmically connected to the idea of being marked by some form of emotional agony or hurt. This plays to some of the "only feeling huge emotions" nicely, but keeps us squarely within the genre of things that would be rampage-worthy. Effectively, the implication is that giants live a life of suffering, reminded (however dimly or abstractly) of the emotional scars that shaped and created them. Some players might try playing giant characters who have some inkling of what these original scars were: just as some elves have the Key of the Bloodline, these giants  could be the product of a long-standing feud or injury done in the distant past, or a crime which was never brought to justice. They can easily vent their fury on a human community, a line of nobles, an organization, or just people who remind them of their past. Great crimes, cruelty, barbarism, and horror are the triggers which caused these giants to become what they are. They have become as chaotic and merciless as raw nature in its destructive form; while they embody the storm, flood, fire, and rockslide, it is those things which serve as an emotional metaphor for our own brutality and hurt.

Not every giant has to go this route, of course, just as not every elf character will be connected to a human past and (by extension) have a sense that some transformation occurred which brought them to this new state of life. But it might make for an interesting element to play with. It also makes the giant less likely to forgive a sleight, which is a personality trait which isn't currently spoken for among any of Near's other species at the moment. It allows their rage to be more than one note, frothing at the mouth craziness. If we can imagine the giant is a towering physical monster with a soft emotional underbelly, it seems like a clear motivation as to why they're rampaging all the time. If we extend that idea into the fact that they're towering monsters precisely BECAUSE of that soft emotional underbelly, well, there might be something which is narratively interesting in that "pumpkin fiction" kind of sense which TSOY embodies when it really hums.

I'm worried, in essence, that the giant feels very static at the moment, which seems a bad thing. His portfolio of Secrets and the narrative thrust of the ideas so far push him to be alone, and I'd like to come up with some interesting antidotes to that tendency, some built-in character drives which push giants towards interacting more (and thereby triggering all of their troubles). Great stories aren't told about characters who want to be hermits and succeed in being them for the rest of their lives, after all; its kind of a dull tale. The Species Keys for elves, when carefully examined, almost always drive more interaction with other people. That Eternal Question isn't going to answer itself in the void; you've got to interact with your Bloodline to hit the Key (however secretly), and even the Key of the Self mandates that you've got to be around other people specifically so you can *refuse* their requests. Its remoteness, yes, but of the most social kind.

If we make the giants remote creatures, I think they need things which bring them back to the narrative, and serve as motivators for them, in the same fashion.

Any thoughts?

-shadowcourt (aka josh)

This new twist seems more appropriate to the undead, with a 'Crow' style vibe.  To be honest, I'm surprised someone hasn't produced an undead supplement yet.  It's a natural development of the story arc.

shadowcourt wrote:
Consider giants as inmically connected to the idea of being marked by some form of emotional agony or hurt....

If we can imagine the giant is a towering physical monster with a soft emotional underbelly, it seems like a clear motivation as to why they're rampaging all the time. If we extend that idea into the fact that they're towering monsters precisely BECAUSE of that soft emotional underbelly, well, there might be something which is narratively interesting in that "pumpkin fiction" kind of sense which TSOY embodies when it really hums.