Topic: Odd note about the term Munchkin
Started by: Ben Morgan
Started on: 6/23/2002
Board: Actual Play
On 6/23/2002 at 7:16pm, Ben Morgan wrote:
Odd note about the term Munchkin
In the interest of not derailing the Player Apathy thread, I'm posting something Mike Holmes said here:
Interestingly there is a derogatory term that you may or may not have heard applied to this sort of player. Munchkin. This term was coined because of a common occurrence at game conventions. Players would show up expecting non-competitive or even cooperative game play from the other players. But then one kid (actually occasionally an adult) would show up wanting to competitively powergame. This one incompatible player often was enough to make a shambles of the session. Due to the typically young age of such players, the term Munchkin stuck to describe it.
Funny thing about the origin of the term Munchkin, I realize the term has probably been around forever, but I (and by extension, my gaming group at the time) came up with it almost completely independently. The first time I used the term, it was coming from a Red Dwarf quote ("Do you think I would hide Kochanski's disk in Kochanski's box where any Munchkin could find it?"). It would be at least six years before I would attend my first con.
On 6/25/2002 at 2:53am, Ring Kichard wrote:
munchkin
Amazing Kreskin wrote:
Funny thing about the origin of the term Munchkin, I realize the term has probably been around forever, but I (and by extension, my gaming group at the time) came up with it almost completely independently.
Speaking of how that word entered my use...
I think I ran into it on a How to Role-play site. The author must have loved "over the top" characters because nearly all of his recommendations were about playing diva style personalities.
The author complained bitterly about some munchkin players that only tried to kill things and ruined his fun. Being young and impressionable I got the message, "Competition is bad." It took me a while to figure out why it felt so shallow.
Now, here on The Forge, we talk a lot about dysfunction. Aside from sounding like an open invitation for a social worker and some therapy, it seems to reflect a school of thought, "so long as it harms none, do what thou wilt'." To put it positively, "if blowing stuff up is your bag, have fun with other 'gun bunnies' and it's all good."
I know I've covered old ground, here, but I wanted to take a moment to thank all the players and designers here who play in tightly focused Narratives and make this loosely affiliated Simulationist feel welcome anyway.
Now, in an attempt to cover some new ground…. We have determined the diminutive for dysfunctional gamest play: munchkin. We've probably all used it when we were frustrated with self-contradictory systems or when we were sick and tired of the guy playing for points when we thought we were exploring the limits of human compassion. I'd be curious, however, to hear if there are any terms floating about for dysfunctional Simulationist or Naritivist play.
I'm not bringing this up because I want to trash anyone – far from it. But just as any honest discussion of a stupid prejudice has to talk about language, it seems to me that a lot of words get thrown around this forum and others that might be worth reconsidering or narrowing. I remember one thread about "one shot" or "beer and pretzels" that generated a bit of heat, for example.
On 6/25/2002 at 3:22pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
Re: munchkin
Ring Kichard wrote: Now, in an attempt to cover some new ground…. We have determined the diminutive for dysfunctional gamest play: munchkin. We've probably all used it when we were frustrated with self-contradictory systems or when we were sick and tired of the guy playing for points when we thought we were exploring the limits of human compassion. I'd be curious, however, to hear if there are any terms floating about for dysfunctional Simulationist or Naritivist play.
Rules-Lawyer comes to mind for some dysfunctional simulationists, but more often is probably derogatory for Gamists again. Those Simulationists who are really trying to play a wargame are often referred to as Grognards. Many of these players would consider that a compliment of sorts, however, indicating that it's really more of a style.
My Guy syndrome is a classification of "Simulationist" that hides from conflicts by claiming "It's what My Guy would do." Not really derogatory so much as a classification of a dysfunction.
Interestingly, Power-gamer is often used derisively, though we'd use the same term to describe the functional version of such play as well. Dysfunctional Power-gamer would almost be the definition of Munchkin, were it not for the age implications. The Monty Haul GM (Cook come up with that in the famous article?) is a Gamist GM who makes everything too easy. As opposed to the Killer GM who likes to kill off the PCs.
A dysfunctional Narrativist GM is the guy who just tells the story, with little to no player input. There should be a name for this guy, but I can't think of one that I've seen used. There could also be a term for the player who uses tons of unauthorized Director Stance power. He could use a name as well, though he's rare.
Mike
On 6/25/2002 at 4:53pm, Seth L. Blumberg wrote:
RE: Odd note about the term Munchkin
I'm not aware of any terms specifically relating to dysfunctional Simulationist play styles. One type of Simulationist player that can frequently become dysfunctional is the Plumber (I think Aaron Allston came up with the term). That's the guy who is totally fixated on developing his own character's backstory and issues, to the exclusion of participating in the same story as the rest of the group. (Exploration of Character taken to an extreme.) Robin Laws calls this guy the Method Actor.
On 6/25/2002 at 5:11pm, Clay wrote:
RE: Re: munchkin
Mike Holmes wrote: A dysfunctional Narrativist GM is the guy who just tells the story, with little to no player input. There should be a name for this guy, but I can't think of one that I've seen used.
Storyteller. There's the little problem that White Wolf already used it as the official term for their gamemaster. Unfortuntely my experiences with their games have lead me to believe that the dysfunction you speak of is what they intended.
Bugger, I'm in a foul mood about roleplaying today. Have to get away for a while and work on stuff that I actually enjoy.
On 6/25/2002 at 6:57pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Re: munchkin
Clay wrote: Storyteller. There's the little problem that White Wolf already used it as the official term for their gamemaster. Unfortuntely my experiences with their games have lead me to believe that the dysfunction you speak of is what they intended.
Well, yes. I wasn't going to say it, but there you have it. Note that in this ecumenical day and age of RPGs that even that style is not considered to be dysfunctional by some groups. Or so the groups claim at least, I cannot independently verify.
Remember that many times when a player claims dysfunction he's merely stating that he did not like the otherwise valid style. And that the style was only invalid so far as it did not cater to that player's desires. So, I shouldn't say that "Storytelling" is dysfunctional, just that I don't much like it, and hate being forcibly subjected to it.
This is not to say that real dysfunctional types do not exist. The Munchkin is truely dysfunctional as are My Guy players because they cannot even play with their own kind. There is no style in which their behavior is acceptable to anyone but, perhaps, themselves.
Mike
On 6/25/2002 at 7:14pm, Seth L. Blumberg wrote:
RE: Odd note about the term Munchkin
Mike Holmes wrote: A dysfunctional Narrativist GM is the guy who just tells the story, with little to no player input.
Clay wrote: Storyteller.
Now, now, let's not get rude. "Wanna-Be Novelist" works just as well.
On 6/25/2002 at 11:47pm, Bob McNamee wrote:
RE: Odd note about the term Munchkin
maybe "Orator"?
"Broadcaster"
?
hmm
Bob McNamee
On 6/26/2002 at 12:05am, Eric J. wrote:
RE: Odd note about the term Munchkin
I hate to interject (well actually I love to interject) but I don't see how a playing style is disfunctional. I don't know... I don't think it's possible. If it stops the game from functioning than isn't it something else? Mucnchkins can have functional games and enjoy them, so I don't see how their disfunctional. The same applies for the Narrativist and Simulationist. My group is disfunctional because it stops the game from functioning.
Anyway:
Gamist: Munchkin; powergamer (if you consider it derogative)/Rules lawyer.
Simulationist: I wouldn't say a RULES LAWYER counts, as it is a focus about the RULES. This implies gamist behavior above all else.
Narrativist: Storyteller; controller.
I've already stated my objections for categorizing disfunctional play with GNS. As Ron's essay firmly stated, playes based their problems on gameismn historically, so that will have the corresponding derogatory slang terms. BTW: Why isn't this in RPG theory, or some where?
On 6/26/2002 at 4:17am, Ring Kichard wrote:
RE: Odd note about the term Munchkin
Pyron wrote:
BTW: Why isn't this in RPG theory, or some where?
I don't know about that.... We're talking about our experiences, but I can see how this might easily become theory or meta discussion. We'll leave it up to the mods'.
Now, now, let's not get rude. "Wanna-Be Novelist" works just as well.
While it is mean spirited, I think, to use storyteller as a label of dysfunctional play, that's exactly what we're examining here: the mean spirited thoughts and attitudes we've probably all got. I'm not proposing that we should enjoy them, but that we are better off knowing what we think. Later we can change, if we think we should.
Gamers can be a funky bunch. I've noticed that I can't really stomach the idea of running a WOD: subtitle game, even though I have a player begging me for one. A part of me is thinking, "Eh, I could drift it or leave it," and another part of me is thinking, "damned Gamest Narrativist-wannabee system". I think Clay and Mike are on to something.
I've already stated my objections for categorizing disfunctional play with GNS. As Ron's essay firmly stated, playes based their problems on gameismn historically, so that will have the corresponding derogatory slang terms.
I think we've been a group here long enough to begin to form our own culture. I've been lurking for a while, designing in secret in my underground lair, and when I see someone mention, say, The Window, (A mechanic I love for reminding me how simple it could be), it's usually used overwhelmingly negatively. I guess I can see why people think it's a bad system, but there's some venom here.
Not only that, but we use it differently than most sites would. An RPG.Net opinion I saw once complained that The Window was too much frou-frou high art, limp wrested, navel gazing. Around here we tend to criticize it for incoherence or not mattering (system does matter).
As for categorizing dysfunctional play with GNS, I guess I don't see the problem. The study of dysfunctional play owes quite a lot to the idea that people look for different things in their games. Ron also points out that all three GNS styles have been with us from the beginning of role-playing, and more to the point, if GNS isn't going to provide insight into dysfunctional play styles (see mike's comment about selfish styles) and our perceptions of it, what else will?
On 6/26/2002 at 4:58am, hardcoremoose wrote:
RE: Odd note about the term Munchkin
Here's one I haven't seen anyone talk about:
Drama-Queens.
You know the type. Louder and more outspoken than everyone else at the table. The frustrated actor or actress. The Actor-stance version of the Power-gamer. The person who demands that you pay attention to them.
And fairly or not, the title is roughly equated to LARPers, at least where I'm from.
- Scott
On 6/26/2002 at 2:08pm, Ben Morgan wrote:
RE: Odd note about the term Munchkin
Pyron,
The thread that spawned the the thought that grew into this thread was in this same forum. My fault. :)
In General,
On the Sim side, there's the Genre Fiend, though that's only one specific Sim.
I suppose that most of Allston's classifications could be taken too far, and thus become dysfunctional, and then the labels could be considered derogatory.
[When the 2nd Ed of Fannon's RPG Bible came out, I realized I kinda missed the stick figures in the 1st Edition (which I've since misplaced).]
-- Ben
On 6/26/2002 at 5:11pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Odd note about the term Munchkin
To be clear, dysfunction means that somebody isn't having fun playing. So while a true munchkin may have fun every time he plays, as long as he's annoying the other players his behavior is dysfunctional. That said, a "functional munchkin" would instead be a power-gamer. At least this is how I've seen these things defined and working.
In any case, a person who does not like power-gaming might occasionally refer to a power-gamer as a munchkin. Meaning that he does not like the style. In this case, however, the problem is being caused by the clash of styles, not inappropriate behaviors. Or, rather, the only thing that makes the behavior inappropriate is the failure to agree before hand on what was acceptable behavior.
Thus you'll as often see a person say "Damn Narrativists" as someone else might say, "Damn munchkins" or "Damn powergamers".
You have to know the context to know whether or not the term was accurately used to describe a dysfunctional player or a dysfunctional group. In your case, Eric, I'm guessing that you have both some dysfunctional players (who nobody could have fun with) as well as a group dysfunction in that there seem to be different styles going on (most notably a difference in GM and player desires).
In any case, I'd propose that staying away from undefined and mean spirited jargon is a good idea. If you have a player displaying dysfunctional power-gaming tendencies, say just that. If you use munchkin, we'll probably know what you mean, but it's better to be sure.
Mike