Topic: First Kayfabe Print Run
Started by: Matt Gwinn
Started on: 6/25/2002
Board: Publishing
On 6/25/2002 at 10:41pm, Matt Gwinn wrote:
First Kayfabe Print Run
I hope this doesn't hurt my sales.
I got my copies of Kayfabe today and I have to admit that I am not 100% satisfied with the way it turned out. The crease/binding is cracked from the folding process and some of the glossy coating is peeling around some of the staples. Don't get me wrong, it looks great for what I paid (and what I'm charging), but I was hopeing for perfection. After looking at it many times I think the problem is in the thickness of the cover and likely not the fault of the printer. Aside from that I have no complaints. The interior looks really sharp and the cover art looks great. It definetly looks better than a printed PDF or the ashcans of Wyrd I did last year.
What I'm wondering is if it would be worth my time to complain to the printer about the spine or should I have expected that? I think I recall someone warning me that would happen.
,Matt G.
On 6/26/2002 at 12:15am, pigames wrote:
complain to printer?
Maybe. What kind of paper did you choose? Is it laminated? How many pages is it? How is it bound (stapled I assume)?
Most covers need to be scored before folded. This eliminates most of the cracking (but not all). The paper and print method could also affect this.
If you tell me the details (the printing method and binding method), I'll try to give you an answer. I used to work for a print house.
Brett Bernstein
Politically Incorrect Games
www.pigames.net
P.S. Congrats on getting your game printed. I've heard good things about it, but haven't really gotten around to finding out more.
On 6/26/2002 at 12:23am, Matt Gwinn wrote:
RE: First Kayfabe Print Run
It was digitally printed.
The cover is on CS1(?) glossy 80# card stock
The interior is 32 pages on 50#
The binding is saddle stitched
,Matt
On 6/26/2002 at 12:28am, pigames wrote:
Inquire!
80# card stock needs to be scored before folding. I suggest you find out what type of printer/press was used. Laser printers will "scratch", oil based ink presses typically don't.
Can I ask you where you got it done?
Brett
www.pigames.net
On 6/26/2002 at 12:38am, Matt Gwinn wrote:
RE: First Kayfabe Print Run
It's called Color K Corp
It's in Miami
I suggest you find out what type of printer/press was used. Laser printers will "scratch", oil based ink presses typically don't.
The cover isn't scratched or anything like that. It actually looks pretty good. It's just the fold of the spin that is bad. Some are better than others. It's like when you fold a piece of paper and then run your fingernail across the fold so it's easier to tear.
It's not terrible, but it doesn't look very professional.
,Matt
On 6/26/2002 at 12:47am, pigames wrote:
?
So, what I think you're saying is that the spine is warped?
I'm not exactly sure what you're seeing. Any job from a printer should look professional. If it's not they are no good. If they tell you that the price they gave you was for this quality then they have inferior equipment or they simply lack professionalism.
Either way----talk to them!
What kind of place is this Color K Corp? Local print shop, online printer, or something else?
Brett
www.pigames.net
On 6/26/2002 at 12:57am, Matt Gwinn wrote:
RE: First Kayfabe Print Run
They are a short run print place. They do 4 color process and digital printing (what I got). I went with them because they were what I could afford. I'm going to give them a call tomorrow and see if I can determine what the deal is.
,Matt
On 6/26/2002 at 1:01am, pigames wrote:
!
Digital printing comes in many forms. I'm assuming that in their case it is a laser printing method, which will crack. Also, it sounds like the spine wasn't scored (it should have been). It isn't always done to save time and money.
Good Luck.
Brett
www.pigames.net
On 6/26/2002 at 12:58pm, Chris Passeno wrote:
RE: First Kayfabe Print Run
Ditto on everything Brett said.
Scoring should have been offered to you from the get go. Any cover stock, in particular a Coated Coverstock, needs to be scored before bookletted. (Note: C1S means coated-one-side)
Digital Printing is a buzz-word. Most every copier is digital in some way. Brett is right, it sounds like they output to a Color Copier (Color Laser Copier). Copiers use Toner. Toner is finely ground plastic. The toner is melted when it goes through the fuser unit in the copier. If you have toner going over a place that is scored or folded, it will crack the toner. Sometimes you can get away with leaving a white line right where the score is gonna be.
Coated paper is just that. It has a coating on it when it's made at the Mill. Up til about 3 years ago, Tech's would flip a gasket if they found out that ya sent glossy paper thorough the color copiers. Even today, the older Techs don't care for it, something about the coating fusing to the rollers. This doesn't mean that it can't be done, my shop tends to steer people away from gloss on a CLC, but we will still use it.
Your inside paper is a 50# Offset. Paper is measured by the poundage. This poundage is on several different scales. A lot of times this poundage overlaps. I.E. 20# Bond=50# Offset, 24# bond=60# Offset, 28# bond=70# Offset. Poundage is determined by the weight of a ream of parent sheets. To compound this, different types of paper have different size parent sheets. Parent sheets can range from 17x22 to 28x40.
If your printer didn't offer you scoring, then they were wrong. I would complain. At the least, they should give you a discount to avoid the expense of rerunning the job again.
Later,
Chris
On 6/26/2002 at 4:26pm, Matt Gwinn wrote:
RE: First Kayfabe Print Run
They never offered me scoring. You would think they would just do it if the end product would be flawed otherwise.
Kayfabe doesn't use a full bleed on the cover so the problem with the toner cracking wasn't a problem. The problem is with the actual paper. I opened one copy flat and the cover tore away from the staple.
I sent the company an email which has been our pimary method of communication and hopefully we can arange something. I'm hopeing I can send the copies I have back and they will redo the print run as it is only 50 copies and shouldn't be much of a loss to them, considering it was their screw up.
,Matt
On 6/26/2002 at 4:45pm, pigames wrote:
cracking
Full bleed doesn't mean that the toner can't crack. It can occur wherever the sheet is folded or in some way mistreated. But, anyway, if the paper tore, they may have scored it, but the machine may have been set too close and the score was closer to cutting.
Either way, they owe you!!! Chris is right - a discount is in order at the very least, but torn covers warrants a redo.
On 6/26/2002 at 5:35pm, Paul Czege wrote:
RE: First Kayfabe Print Run
I opened one copy flat and the cover tore away from the staple.
You mean you have holes in the cover now where the staples tore through, and bits of cover still attached to the staples where they can now be seen against the title page? The cover is still attached to the book, right? It didn't tear completely away, did it?
On 6/26/2002 at 9:24pm, Eugene Zee wrote:
They need to do right by you
Matt,
It sounds like you definitely deserve another run at no cost. You should not pay at all for it and don't let them bamboozle you. Let them know that you are a client that is interested in a future printing many books with them. Insist on quality, if they agreed to the price they are responsible for producing it properly. Inexpensive doesn't mean shoddy workmanship. If they know what they are doing they will rerun at no charge and give you a discount on your next run. If they don't do that report them to the BBB and continue to hound them.
Don't hesitate to subtly show that you are a little pissed, either. Imagine the cover tear happens to twenty or even just one of your constituents. That's not right.
Good luck.
On 6/26/2002 at 9:42pm, Chris Passeno wrote:
RE: First Kayfabe Print Run
At that small of a print run, I doubt that they scored it. It would take longer to set up the scorer than it would to run the sheets. That's not very economical.
The paper cracking and falling off definately sounds like a no-score problem though.
On 6/26/2002 at 11:39pm, Matt Gwinn wrote:
RE: First Kayfabe Print Run
You mean you have holes in the cover now where the staples tore through, and bits of cover still attached to the staples where they can now be seen against the title page? The cover is still attached to the book, right? It didn't tear completely away, did it?
Not exactly. The front and back of the cover are fine, the image is fine. Imagin having a folder and then running a cheese grater across the folded edge. that's a little like the way they look. The cover is still attached but by only one staple instead of two (for now).
This is what the guy wrote back to me today. Bad grammar and all.
Matthew
The think the problem you saw with the cover is the scoring, the problem is quantity, to have a perfect folding on cardstock is necessary score the paper before folding, in this case both process was done manually because it is impossible set up the machine for score only 50 covers, So I don´t know exactly what tell you about how to resolve this problem because a new run will be the same. The solution can be replace the covers with a non cardstock paper. I can print the covers on 80# gloss text and send it to you to replace for the others.
Daniel
What he suggests would require me to take apart all 50 copies and put them back together myself...I could have done that at work for free. What I'm considering is sending the copies back and getting my money back, which could be a pain in the ass since I paid by credit card.
My other option is to simply give the print copies away to anyone that buys the PDF. Anyone that buys a print copy at GENCON will also get a copy of the PDF.
Keep in mind that what they sent is better than what I can do on my own. And if I could produce something of equal quality I doubt I'd be as irritated as I am now. It's still sturdier than something sold in a 3-ring binder and could last longer that a poorly bound book (i.e. SLA Industries). I was just hopeing for more.
I intend to get the opinion of Hardcoremoose after he gets a chance to see it.
,Matt G.
On 6/27/2002 at 2:34am, Eugene Zee wrote:
I'll take two.
Matt,
If you are going to Origins, look me up. Ron will probably know where to find me. I know two people that love wrestling and I'll buy two copies of Kayfabe for them. If not, when I get back I'll order them. What you created has worth. I don't think you should have to give them away.
You should push that guy more. See if you can make him re-bind all the copies. He knows he is wrong, he is just trying to take the easy way out by not taking them back and restitching them, as well as reprinting the covers.
Hope to see you at Origins.
Regards,
On 6/27/2002 at 2:11pm, Matt Gwinn wrote:
RE: First Kayfabe Print Run
Well, I gave the whole deal some thought and gave them 3 options
Option 1 is that I will return the current run and they can redo the covers, properly scored, and reassemble the books. I assured them that this would be the most likely way to keep my business along with the potential business of other independent publishers I happen to know.
Option 2 is that they print new covers on the 80# gloss text (like they offered), I'll return the existing copies and they can reassemble them. I will then take future business elsewhere.
Option 3 is that I return the copies and they give me a 100% refund.
The 4th option (which I did not offer them) is that they say no to all the above options forcing me to sell what I have and flame the hell out of them all over the indie game community.
What do you think?
,Matt
On 6/27/2002 at 3:11pm, Eugene Zee wrote:
Good Stuff.
Matt,
Way to go. Sounds like you have it all in hand. Kudos.
Let us know how he responds.
On 6/27/2002 at 3:17pm, Walt Freitag wrote:
RE: First Kayfabe Print Run
I think you're justified in the options you offered.
it is impossible set up the machine for score only 50 covers...
Translation: "it's not worth our trouble to set up the machine for such a small run."
(Which may indeed be true, but in that case they shouldn't have accepted the job and/or price in the first place.)
...a new run will be the same.
Translation: "go to hell."
- Walt
On 6/27/2002 at 3:37pm, Matt Gwinn wrote:
RE: First Kayfabe Print Run
Well, he responed.
Mathew
Ok, send me back the catalogs, I will replace the cover for new ones.
Daniel
As you can see, he wasn't specific on whether he was doing option 1 or 2, but his short response and mispelling of my name imply that he's not happy about it. I don't think I will push the matter by asking him to be more specific. Either way the quality should be better than what I received thus far.
Regardless of whether or not they make things right I would not recomend them. So far, they have not been very professional; hell, they have customer misspelled on their web site for crying out loud. I guess you get what you pay for.
Here is their web site for what it's worth
http://www.colorkgraphics.com
,Matt
On 6/27/2002 at 3:48pm, Seth L. Blumberg wrote:
RE: First Kayfabe Print Run
You paid by credit card? This is a good thing. If you can't get satisfaction, write to your bank and put the charge in dispute.
On 6/27/2002 at 9:48pm, pigames wrote:
80# text
Matt,
I just want to make sure that you realize that 80# text is not card stock.
On 6/28/2002 at 12:50am, Matt Gwinn wrote:
RE: First Kayfabe Print Run
I just want to make sure that you realize that 80# text is not card stock.
I know that, but I'm willing to settle for it so I don't have to hunt down another printer willing to print at 7" x 10". The only other place I can afford to take it would require me to layout the whole thing at 7" x 8.5" which is a shit load of work and would require me to cut stuff.
By the way, for those of you who are interested, I put a 10 page preview of Kayfabe on my site.
,Matt G.
On 6/28/2002 at 12:21pm, Chris Passeno wrote:
RE: First Kayfabe Print Run
A 7x10 wouldn't be that difficult for most printers. It would be a 14x10 flat, which would fit, with bleeds on a 11x17. Even the Mom & Pop shops can do an 11x17. It's just a matter of making the face and side trim's a little deeper.
On 7/17/2002 at 10:10pm, Matt Gwinn wrote:
RE: First Kayfabe Print Run
I got my copies of Kayfabe back today with spanking new "SCORED" covers. They look great.
I doubt I will ever use that printer again, but at least they came through in the end and gave me what I paid for.
,Matt G.
On 7/17/2002 at 10:13pm, Jason L Blair wrote:
RE: First Kayfabe Print Run
Good to hear, Matt!
Can't wait to see that baby.
On 7/17/2002 at 11:19pm, Paul Czege wrote:
RE: First Kayfabe Print Run
Outstanding Matt!
And this thread to me is one of the great success stories of The Forge, in terms of what it shows about our collective ability to inform the individual functioning, decisionmaking, and self-advocacy of each of us in the marketplace and the arena of support industries, our collective ability to be more effective than we otherwise would independently. Just knowing this kind of skill/advice/knowledge sharing is part of what we're all about, and that it's as powerful and effective as this, creates confidence for each of us in deciding whether or not to personally go forward with indie commercial aspirations.
Kudos to Chris, Eugene, Brett, Walt, Seth, and everyone else who contributed to this thread and advised Matt behind-the-scenes. This stuff is exactly why Games Unplugged and retailers at GAMA are even in the position of taking notice of indie publishing.
Paul
On 7/18/2002 at 2:47am, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: First Kayfabe Print Run
Way to go, MATT!
What Paul said.
Best,
Ron
On 7/19/2002 at 1:50pm, Eugene Zee wrote:
Congratulations, man.
That is good news! Great follow through.
AND what Paul said!
AND thanks Paul.
Regards,