Topic: Help with ideas for Thera, action adventure in the subconscious.
Started by: Regin Smith
Started on: 5/15/2008
Board: First Thoughts
On 5/15/2008 at 11:28am, Regin Smith wrote:
Help with ideas for Thera, action adventure in the subconscious.
I have been slowly developping a game for my gaimng group over quite some period of time. Themes and rule structures have been constructed and dismanteled in an ongoing process.
Finding the Forge was very beneficial and has let me take a new perspective on the project. Presently I am not sure if I intend to publish the game. It largely depends on how original it may end up being. I do not want to publish something that is a blatant plagiarism of exisitng games.
I would very much appreciate input on two aspects of the game: How to make the most out of the dream-type magic that saturates this game, and suggestions how to develop a cocial conflict resolution system in a T20 or T100 mechanic.
It´s yet another Heart Breat Fantasy Game, I guess ;-)
The nature of the game is mostly simulationist exploration and adventure. I use T100 or T20 (not fully decided yet) with variables and some tables. Die results are compared by degree of success: Critical Failure, Marginal Failure, Marginal Success and Critical Success: Old school mechanics.
Works out pretty much like Rune Quest and similar games.
There is also an element of Idiom generated fate points that can be used by players to enhance their characters and also to activate Gifts that will shift the probablitiy of outcomes in given situations. Not so much extra bonus Fate Dies, but rather ability to affect certain types of events or situations that is in character of their personas. I want to emulate a feeling of fate and heroic adventure you find in celtic and norse mythology. Strange powers, but also obvious weaknesses and a ruling and mysterious fate.
A strong theme in the game is the layering of information give to the players through out the game. Players are given commonly accepted truths to act on, but the reality is often somehting else. Game master also relies heavily on the themes and fantasies of the Player´s/PC´s in developing adventures with a strong mystical nature.
The heroic bronze age culture they think they are adventuring in is really a kind of Sci-Fi setting: a world that has degenerated from wars and power struggles , leaving nothing of former PSI-based technolgy, apart from ancient relics and ruins of alien looking architecture.
Mankind has been used as slaves and soldiers by now departed Great Beings, to act out a genocide of the original inhabitants of an alien world. Mankind was chosen because its strong capacity of beleif. In the end this turned out to be the undoing of the Great Beings, who had to leave the ravaged word to their former slaves. Bad feelings resulted and still linger…
This fact is unknown to the players, but might be at east in part be revealed gradualy through the game.
A peculiar thing with this world is that there exist an interface between the physical word and the world of ides and dreams. Through this interface, the ”ghosts” of the departed Great Beings and past times heros and tyrants still influence the physical world of the living. Mankind has developped a kind of shamanistic religion, deaing with ”gods” and ”deamons”. The Second World was partly a work by the ancient Great Beings. They used it as a portal for physical travel, but also as a tool to influence sentient beings.
Because of mankinds great capability of faith and creativity, individuals can actually have an impact on the ”Second World” and also bring back esoteric knowledge from dream travels that translates into a kind of magic. It is not a magic of fireballs, but rather of enhanced skills and power of the mind. You can also affect the probabilities of outcomes by manipulation of archetypes in the Second World.
At the character creation, the player and the game master develops themes and idioms that the player finds interesting. The player also chooses/defines one or two reoccurring dream visions of unknown meaning. At this moment the player does not know that the remembered dream is anything but a tool to build an identification with the character. In actual play the dream themes, Idioms and past history of the character acts as keyes for the game master to develop individual themes for exploration for the player. Gradually is revealed that childhood memories and personal fears might actually be clues for reaching a deeper understanding of the second world and how to make use of the sleeping power therein. The dream theme can develop in an open ended way druing play. Player and GM develop it together (player by interpretation and GM by preparation), but it is always presented as a mystery and a challenge to the Player. The GM can use this as a tool to bring new themes into play and anchor them directly to the subconsious of the Character, bringing mystery and hopefully fascination to the Player.
Part of the game is going to take place in the surrealistic world of dream and archetypes.
Part is taking place in the mundane world where characters have to rely on simple skill and daring to survive.
There are hierarchies of power in both worlds.
Most will find that you have to pledge yourself to one of the many(?) "Houses" that rule the Second World. This takes the form of ancestor worship, or totemism in the mundane world. It also provides you with a socially accepted moral code to ac in accordance to within different cultures. You stay unattached to your own peril…
The players Characters belong to a unique minority of people who can access this second world in their dreams. This is an ability that will develop gradually and exposes the bold to the to peril of loosing their free will and sanity.
They also have to fit in/ or relate to the social structure of the mundane world. The mundane world is designed to be a conterbalance to the fantastic nature of the ”Second World”. It is gritty and mostly small scale. No Middle earth with legions of Orcs and Wizards flying in the sky. It is small kingdoms and city states living on the fringe of a hostile world that has not forgiven the intrusion of mankind centuries ago. Mankind is the only sentient being. Or so, the players will think...
I hope to generate a sense of awe for the unknown by this: I want the Players to experience both power and filght of fancy as well as limitations of what is possible. I want them to experience the thrill of personal change and how the world can be changed along with you. That is to me a key element of Magic and Mystery.
The reward system builds on Idioms that generate Fate Points through role playing. Fate Points are used by players to develop Skills and Gifts.
Another ”reward” is how the expereinces of the character manifests as changes of personality (=Idioms). Players will learn new ways to use fate points during the game and will be rewarded gifts at the price of personality change. Some change is for the ”better” and some for the ”worse”. All change is intended to be interesting or enjoyable for the Player, even if it is dramatic and perhaps even painful for the Character. This works through the fact that ”bad” idioms or ideals generates as much or more fate points than ”beneficial” ones. I want to stimulate a mode of play where players risk the well being of their characters, getting an immediate reward for doing so and at the same time help develop a more eventful story. Players get to choose new idioms to play out, based on the experiences they´ve endured.
And so, finally, to my questions to you:
I need an (effective) resolution system for actions in the Second World and I would appreciate suggestions for resolution mechanics for social conflict that goes fits with the Simulationist T20 or T100 system of skills and attributes of the mundane world (with added fate pwered Gifts). I am not afraid of some level of book keeping. In fact I think it is neccessary for this game. I would like to minimize the diferent types of die mechanincs, keeping them to one or two, max three types of resolution methods.
At this time in development, Characters have six baisc Attributes (three physical and three Spiritual in 1-20 scale): (physical)Power, Balance, Dexterity & Faith, Feeling, Reason.
Some derived Attributes and all Skills are based on the six basic Attributes.
An idea is to let the spiritual attributes be the base for all ”physical” actions in the World of Dream. Faith = physical Power, Feeling = Balance, Reason = Dexterity.
You can only bring along and use what you have in your mind, when traveling to that strange place. However, skills learned and insights earned there can later be applied in physical actions and social interaction back in the physical world. Some kind of bonus system including some speciallized fate powered gifts, is what I have in mind.
You can also make allies in the Dream world, who might help you in different ways.
Naturally, you will also make enemies that will bring woe to your life.
I´d like the effects to be sublte in most cases. You should not be able to tell at once that magic had been involved. For the players it mostly plays out as twists of destiny and strange coincidences.
I have some ides how to build a system around this, but would greatly appreciate some input and critique.
I would also like to have a system for social interaction that fits in to this. Characters have to spend efforts in dealing with petty kings, vengeful warlords and power hungry priests.
Any suggestions are very welcome.
My idea so far has been to define how different cultures and social strata are inclined to relate to each other, and have this be a variable on a reaction table reading social skill rolls. Esoteric skills could simply be another variable for the social skills, or it could add an element of Fate. Because of the strong Simulationist nature of the game, I´d prefer not to have the Fate element to blatantly evident. I am thinking about letting Characters influence the mind of NPC´s, but with a price involved. The Powers from the other side demand some kind of tribute for their cervices and can let their will be known through dreams and strange twists of fate. That way, the development of the story stress the fact that there is no free lunch to be had.
I have looked at and been influenced by games such as: Rune Quest, Hârn, Call of Cthulhu, Burning Wheel, Riddle of Steel and Shadow of Yesterday.
Recently I have learned about the game Tribe 8, that has a dream theme magic system. I have ordered these rule books, but do not know what ideas and inspiration I might get from this.
Any replies greatly appreciated!
Thank you for reading.
On 5/15/2008 at 6:43pm, Illetizgerg wrote:
Re: Help with ideas for Thera, action adventure in the subconscious.
Hey Regin. For dream oriented things in your game I might recommend "Reve: The Dream Ouroboros". The primary artist for the game seems to like drawing this one lady naked to the point of redundancy, and I'm not the biggest fan of the setting, but you'll probably find some nice ideas.
What I have in my game is a social combat system that is identical to my normal combat system, with social analogues for everything. For instance, Pride was HP, Courage was your dodge, and Clout was armor. I have since modified it quite a bit, however that was mainly for the sake of the setting. This might be a little much for your system, but at least it wouldn't require new mechanics.
- Gregory Zitelli
On 5/17/2008 at 3:41pm, Regin Smith wrote:
RE: Re: Help with ideas for Thera, action adventure in the subconscious.
Thanks for good input Gregory,
I have ordered a copy of the Rêve rule set. In many aspects there are correlations to what I want to do with my game, so it will be an interesting read.
For social interaction system, I could use something very similar to the combat system of my game, like you suggest.
In combat both sides (secretly)decide to take Offensive, Defensive or Opportunistic stance and degree of success is compared on a table where all combinations of stances and success are represented. Results read degree of damage, stumbles/fumbles and Tactical Advantages.
Damage is defined as Wounds of various severity, that work as negative variables on activities/actions until healed (rate depending on Stamina, a derived Attribute).
This combat system could be applied to Social Interactions as well.
Perhaps I could introduce Esteem and Courage as two (derived)Attributes that are subject to "damage"? But that would introduce two new Attributes to the system and I´d prefer to keep within what I already have.
Or else a negative variable could be applied directly to the three spiritual Attributes: Faith, Feeling and Reason?
The three spiritual Attributes are the basis for six social Skills:
Faith (I might name this "Will" instead): Lead and Intimidate
Feeling: Act and Seduce
Reason: Intrigue and Confuse
If the character suffers social defeat, a negative variable applied to the Skill or Attribute it is based on would make her/him less successful in social interaction until the damage was made good again.
I am not sure how to handle "healing" of social damage should be handled, however. Perhaps if Players choose Idiom(s) that generate fate points to balance out the "social damage" through role playing acts reestablishing their esteem and honor? Perhaps those Idioms should be chosen at Character Creation as a way to define what Honor or Integrity means for the Character? Perhaps an Idiom could be imposed on the Character until she/he has reestablished herself/himself.
On 5/17/2008 at 9:16pm, Illetizgerg wrote:
RE: Re: Help with ideas for Thera, action adventure in the subconscious.
Is the combat stance idea from Traveller? Because I think it's very interesting, and I would like to see how they arranged the tables. Might get a bit complicated, because you have to consult one of multiple different tables, but it's still a neat idea.
- Gregory Zitelli
On 5/17/2008 at 11:34pm, Regin Smith wrote:
RE: Re: Help with ideas for Thera, action adventure in the subconscious.
Illetizgerg wrote:
Is the combat stance idea from Traveller? Because I think it's very interesting, and I would like to see how they arranged the tables. Might get a bit complicated, because you have to consult one of multiple different tables, but it's still a neat idea.
- Gregory Zitelli
Hey Gregory,
The idea for the combat table is my own adaption/derivate from HârnMaster, actually. I do not know how the Traveller game works.
HârnMaster works with one attack mode compared to several defense modes (parry, dodge, counterattack, wrestle, ignore) For HârnMaster there are several sets of combat tables for different types of attack (mounted against mounted, mounted against foot, unarmed against armed and so on...). I find this a bit cumbersome, even if you do get a lot of detail.
I wanted a system that is more general (and perhaps even intuitive!? 8-) so that one table could be applied to armed, unarmed or mounted combat (and perhaps even social interaction!?). A more general table will be less specific of course and less granular, but I hope my solution still provides a decent amount of varied combat results. I wanted a situation where two degrees of success and failure could result in many different outcomes depending on the attitude of the combatants. I also wanted to encourage players to describe combat actions to a level where you can understand their attitude to the fight. My hope is that this will invite more visualization, identification and drama.
By using the definitions Offensive, Opportunist and Defensive, you can apply these both for the fighter who has initiative and the defending part. I only let one fighter have initiative or advantage in each round of fighting, as I do not like the idea of an equal trading of blows routinely followed by parries or dodges. I want each side decide on an attitude towards her/his enemy and that the advantage or order of actions depends on skill, advantage in weapon combinations (reach, speed and defensive capabilities) and not least success/outcome in last exchange. The most successful fighter in the last round gains advantage in the next round and will so have leading initiative.
Players are rewarded bonuses for providing colorful descriptions of what their stances involve. Most any action described by a player can be interpreted as being either Offensive, Opportunistic or Defensive.
My table is set up like three by three columns, each subdivided in four (one for each degree of failure/success). On one side you have the fighter who has the advantage and results are slanted slightly in her/his favor. The other side is for the fighter who fights with a disadvantage. Both sides can choose Offensive, Opportunist or Defensive. Both fighters do this without knowing in advance what stance the opponent is choosing, but it is always obvious who has the advantage, so you can act accordingly. Players and GM writes down the stances chosen, or picks a card and show this simultaneously just before the dice are to be rolled, as they do this they also describe what they intend to do.
Cross reading the results on table, comparing the degree of success/failure the outcome can be that one, both or none was hit, one or both fumbled/stumbled or that one party got a Tactical Advantage (=an extra bonus action within the round). "Tactical Advantage" is an idea directly taken from HârnMaster: very useful and flexible, in that it provides variation to the exchange.
This way you do not first have to roll to see if you hit followed by the opponent rolling to see if a parry or dodge succeeded (to me a non-intuitive way of describing the sequence of a fight). You also get a more varied result than if you simply see if your action succeeded or not.
One table does it all.
So far I still need a separate roll to see how much damage was dealt (1, 2, 3 or 4D6), but it might be possible to include that as a direct value in the table as well. The problem I have to work out is how to factor in armor and weapon effect in this and still have the combat table easy to read. I have not found a solution to this yet.
One idea I am fond of is that all weapons can deal the same amount of damage (with very few exceptions like small darts or poignards). Damage dealt is simply the number of D6 from the combat table.
Different weapons and combinations of weapon/shield provides different tactical advantage in combat and also varies in their capability to penetrate armor (and armor is usually rather effective at stopping incoming force).
I reason that if you wear no armor, it matters little if you are chopped with an axe, struck with a sword or slashed with a knife: the damage suffered will most probably be horrendous.
Armor will typically be most effective at stopping a certain kind of incoming force, but will also be decent at dampening other kinds of damage: cut, penetration or blunt trauma. You pick a profile that fits the various types of armor being used in the setting, but basically it is rigid, flexible or padded armor of various combinations and benefits.
Likewise weapons are developed not only to provide reach and initiative, but also at times to be decently effective at dealing with specific forms of armor.
So, armor is given different values for different type of attacks and some weapons are given bonuses for certain types of armor: piercing mail, punching plate or cutting fibers/padding.
A small war hammer is not more devastating than a simple ball peen hammer when brought down on a bare head, but the spike of the war hammer will have greater chance to punch through a helmet, than the work bench tool would. The helmet is still the single most useful item of armor as it will stop or dampen most damage to a level where you have a fighting chance to survive.
Gregory, if you are interested I could e-mail you a PDF of the combat table.
On 5/18/2008 at 12:34am, Illetizgerg wrote:
RE: Re: Help with ideas for Thera, action adventure in the subconscious.
That would be fantastic, thanks.
- Gregory Zitelli
On 5/22/2008 at 9:17am, Regin Smith wrote:
RE: Re: Help with ideas for Thera, action adventure in the subconscious.
Some new thoughts on the social conflict mechanic:
I think that I´d rather focus directly on the outcome of a confrontation, rather than developing a mechanic for every turn of the struggle/debate.
To follow the same general idea as combat or skill rolls, I need to relate to Critical Success, Marginal Success, Marginal Failiure, Critical Failiure.
Both parties roll and quality of results is compared on a table (4 x 4 columns = 16 possible outcomes).
Different outcomes need to be loosely defined but could read something like:
-The answer is Yes. Opposing party agrees uncondtionally, or changes her/his mind on a fundamental level.
-The answer is Yes, but on conditions. Opposing party is perhaps still somewhat reserved but will go along for the moment, if conditions are met.
-The answer is No, but no hard feelings.
-The answer is No, and there are complications. Opposing party turns away with hurt feelings or angered.
I guess it would be possible to expand this table to involve three social conflict stances: Confrontational, Opportunistic & Defensive.
Another situation is when an active party tries to impress/provoke or manipulate someone who is not interested or passive. That situation might take the place of the column "ignore" on the defensive side of the combat table.
Such a table would have 156 possible outcomes, but many outcomes would be the same. A larger table would simply allow for variation of the extremes and add some small variation to the most common ones.
Perhaps I will include the possibility for Players to choose (or buy?) Passions for their Characters during play. This would work in similar manner as Idioms. If they choose to be loyal follower of someone, to love or hate someone and they act on this in role playing (and especially if they do this risking the well being of their character) they earn Fate points.
I am not sure how to properly define the social skill levels as I think they need to vary depending on situation. I want to reflect that differences in social status and culture has an impact on the probability of outcomes.
I would need to construct a table where variables and differences could be looked up. Pretty much like a table for weapons and armour.
Characters could have spheres of experience in different social situations (like skills in weapon types). This is something else than the skill they have in "Fast Talking" or "Diplomacy". Spheres of experience would act as variables to the social skills, or nullify negative variables.
The generating of "fate" points (yet to be precisely named) is central to the mechanics of the game. By role playing Idioms, players generate "fate" points for their characters. Fate points can be saved up to a certain amount in a pool. The size of this pool can vary and the amount of fate points saved in the pool will also vary depending on how quickly you spend them on activating Gifts or increasing your Skills.
I am debating if I should name the fate pool Esteem or Reputation (and exactly *what* the Reputation is, would be defined by the Player or possibly the *other* players in the group).
Reputation could then be a Conflicted Attribute. If a Reputation is less than half full of Fate points, it could have detrimental effects on social interaction. Perhaps those you interact with get the feeling you are not solid, but rather full of hot air?
That way, someone who has a small reputation and use fate points sparingly, could give the impression of being dependable, but perhaps a bit unimaginative.
Likewise, the state of your Reputation (full or mostly empty) could influence how you interact with the World Beyond, providing a variable to your skills.
I am not sure it is a good idea to "punish" players if they spend their "Fate" points on character development and impact on narrative flow. I want them to do that, but at the same time, I like the effect that there are always consequences to your choices. I want my Players to enjoy both generating *and* spending their Fate points.
For someone who has a big reputation there is a motivation to keep living according to her/his beliefs and acting on them, or else not be taken seriously.
Any critique or input is greatly appreciated!