the setting i have in mind is a high fantasy RPG set in a world that borrows heavily from myth and fairy tales with celtic, norse and classical roots where the characters are meant to be the heroes of the age—at least those heroes that are typified in irish lore, norse poetry and greek epics. now i am hoping for a narrativist/storytelling approach to things and i have been working on a resolution system for quite sometime that relies on a pool of six-sided dice where success/failure is measured in a similar way to "godlike" but with a poker twist. i have found this system to be fairly satisfactory in attaining my wants/needs for the game (i can supply more details if you would like). yet the basic dice resolution system doesn't feel like it is adding that certain mystique to the game that i'm looking for and feels more like just another gimmick instead (which i would like to avoid if at all possible).

now i have been a big fan of card games (not CCGs but good ole fashioned 52 card deck of cards card games) and i have always been interested in using playing cards rather than dice as a resolution system for RPGs. the problem is that i don''t know how viable this is as there isn't much precedence for this sort of thing that i am aware of.

so why cards and cards don't seem to fit well in fantasy genre at all?

well here's the thing, i want to use a 78 card tarot deck (specifically the french version, not the divination ones) instead of the standard poker deck of modern day cards. this—i think—will add that certain mystique i have been looking for and the idea of using tarot in a mythic game seems appropriate to the genre. now the reason i am thinking cards to begin with is to limit the degree of randomness that comes with dice and to give more options to the players so that they have more control over the fate of their characters. the cards the players have in their hand to play at any given time would of course be up to the luck of the draw—so to speak—but how and when they are played would be up to them.

now i don't have any real solid ideas on how to use these cards just yet as i am just floating this around in my brain at the moment with out any real commitment. i just figured since i am translating some of the elements from card games into the dice anyway, i might as well just go full out and use cards to begin with. but is this a good idea, what can be done with cards that could not be done with dice and what are some of the drawbacks of cards over dice.

in case you are wondering ... the french style tarot deck is pretty much the same as a modern deck of cards but with a few important differences. the 78 card deck contains four suits (hearts, clubs, spades and diamonds) divided into the 1 to 10 numbers as well as the king, queen, knight and valet face cards. it also contains 21 trump cards (numbered, without a suit) and one fool card.

I have seen a few games which use cards alongside or replacing dice entirely (Deadlands and Castle Falkenstien come to mind) and I have always been fond of the idea. It gives the players a little more control over their fate and since a single card has more information on it (suite, number/value, color in the case of playing cards) you can pull off some complex mechanics quickly and intuitively.

The only downsides off the top of my head are the need for a particular deck (in the case of using Tarot) which is not a huge deal, and the removal of the anticipation immediately before a roll of how it is going to come out. You could relieve some of the second issue (if it's important to you, I can see arguing that it isn't) by having the cards played face down then compared, or have a mechanic where one card is played before another.

One thing to think about is whether the referee gets a hand or draws randomly as needed. A referee with a hand is splitting effort between storytelling, judging, and playing strategically with the cards, but that may be made up for by the adition of the ability to somewhat control the difficulty of the scene a little better.

A mechanic idea: Tarot cards have a lot of symbolic meaning so if a card is played in an appropriate way to it's meaning it could enhance the action. Maybe adding to level of success, or player control, or allow the addition of other similar cards... just a few ideas.

.

Have you seen Shadows in the Fog by Christopher Lehrich? (http://www.shadowsinthefog.com/)

Best,

Peter

thanks for the link to Shadows in the Fog (nicely done b.t.w.) ... i've skimmed over most of it and it seems to incorporate allot of the same things that i am looking to accomplish. specifically the players being able to have a greater impact on the events of the game rather than relying on the randomness of dice to dictate how things turn out. i think that the idea of being able to use your characters abilities—through the cards—strategically will make the players feel more like they are actually playing the game instead of just being the victims of circumstance and probability, but without removing the element of chance completely

using the arcane cards (the trump cards) in the tarot deck in a way that allows their interpretation to affect the game in some manner is a good idea, but to do so without unnecessary complication is something that i will have to be work out latter—if it turns out that using cards instead of dice has traction that is.

Hi,

Using card-based resolution mechanics has precedence and a proven track-run. "Dust Devils" by Matt Snyder gained considerable credibility & kudos in the Forge indie gaming circle at time of publication; "Castle Falkenstein" by R. Talsorian Games won "Best Roleplaying Rules of 1994 Origins Award".

Neither use tarot, but many mechanical issues are directly translatable, at least potentially, in terms of using card values as random number generators.

Specifically tarot based systems for fantasy have also surfaced from time to time. Some I found interesting:

Tarot & NPCs
http://www.cs.adfa.edu.au/~spike/Roleplay/tarot.use

Tarot based magic system
http://www.cs.adfa.edu.au/~spike/Roleplay/tamasys.1

Prince Of Darkness Games - Swansong
http://www.princeofdarknessgames.com/swansong.htm

So there's no question in my mind that creating a fantasy rpg based around a tarot resolution mechanic has traction. I'm sure it offers unique challenges but it also lends itself to narrative possibilities most dice-based systems don't have access to: ie, the resolution mechanics become part of the imaginative process (the synthesis of form and function, and so on and so on :)

I think its a fascinating direction myself. The guy from Prince Of Darkness Games seems keen on card mechanics, I think he uses them for a number of his games. I've never been in contact with him (don't know his name even) but I'm sure I found his site thru posts on the Forge here--I think he is (or was) a member. He might be a useful guy to approach.

All the best with it!

thanks for the additional links ... i will have to take a closer look at them in the future.

i really like the idea of using tarot cards and the more i think about it, the more i like the idea. having seen what others are doing with them helps in finding the direction that i want to take my own game. i think that i will continue to develop the dice based system and work on building the tarot system along side it ... not in combination with the dice but as a different option for play (either or, so to speak). i just have to figure out how the two resolution systems relate to each other, while still being able to be used separately without the need to create two different games (though i might do that anyway).

I haven't looked at it for years, but Everway comes to mind. It was an attempt to introduce a Collector Card element to RPG's, well intentioned but kinda silly. A great source of artworks on the booster cards. From memeory the core mechanics were based on the Major Arcana only. I'll have to dig it up an let you know what they were like, I don't recall.

Also, while it doesn't have Tarot resolution mechanics Mark Smylie's Artesia RPG use major arcana aspects in the awarding of experience for PC's. Very cool. I'm almost surprised he never developed a Tarot system for the game. But who knows what the new rules set he is working on for the game will be like.

We toyed with Tarot ideas for a few games a while back. In Castle Falkenstein, we toyed with the idea of using Tarot for resolution there, but decided it worked well enough to be left alone. Tarot would have been well in theme for an Order of the Golden Dawn sorcerer. It was outright mooted for Deadlands as the poker theme was perfect.

I'll see what I can fine out for you about other things.

DD

Using cards, tarot or otherwise, is nowhere near new (to add to the list: Engel by Feder Und Schwert, Psychosis by Chameleon Eclectic). I've even been designing rpgs using cards for a while. Here's some things I've learned:

Use cards if you want:
- strategy: cards are semi-predictable
- more than one element (suits, face, number, etc.) with which to derive results (this can be done with dice, too, ala ORE and Weapons of the Gods, so don't use cards just for this)
- the ability to hold cards
- the ability to keep cards hidden
- constructing subsets, e.g. using just the face cards
- non-repeating values (major arcana never tie, because no numbers repeat)
- cards may be traded

What to avoid:
- If you want random numbers, dice do it better. If you're just drawing a card each action and looking at the number, you want dice.
- if you're drawing several cards per action, and situations involve many draws, you'll run low on cards too fast

Extra Tip:
- Include reshuffling in your rules, make it part of the game mechanics. If you have to reshuffle too often, it slows the game down. If you do it too rarely, the cards can be too predictable.

I roughed out Gates of Ivory with a pretty direct Tarot system.  Each suit of the Minor Arcana governed a specific type of action (like the four suits in EVERWAY, which was originally meant to have a Tarot deck BTW) while Major Arcana were for changing stuff 'round wif magic.  Basically, the Minor for objective stuff, Major for subjective.  Your hand size was your hit points, so every time you took a swat, you discarded a card.  Versatile casters were, pretty much by definition, either not loading up on spells or were less useful than their focussed companions, because to cast a spell you have to use a Major Arcana card, which occupies valuable real estate in your hand.  I really should go revisit Gates of Ivory now that I've got a better infrastructure in place for doing indie stuff...

-G.

Have you considered creating your own Rune based card set similar to a Tarot deck but tailored to the mechanics of your game?

=> Double King
actually i have ... i even at one time considered my options for having custom six-siders made to suit my game (but that was a long time ago and my game has changed much since those days). instead of designing a full 78 card deck, i am considering designing a customized 21 card deck that could then be tacked onto any standard 52 card poker deck and include it with the original book (if i ever get to the point of publishing the thing). after looking over all the tarot decks that are available, each one with their own proclivities, it may be easier than forcing the players to try and find a particular deck of cards.

=> Durand
i have just recently picked up the Artesia RPG after seeing it for the first time on book shelves (now i want all the comics as well). i haven't scanned through the whole book yet, but aside from the fantastic artwork and setting details, the first thing i noticed was the tarot based life path system. it's such an awesome idea, i want to steal it!

=> Madunkleg
all of those tips and suggestions for using cards over dice are exactly the reasons that i started thinking about using cards, but having it said like that helps to crystalize in my mind what it is about cards that works for so well for an rpg. all of your points are definitely not lost on me as i agree with all of them.

my only concern now (aside from writing the rules) is that in the past i have tried to incorporate cards into an rpg (one of my very first attempts at design) but my playtesters were not very keen on the use of cards at all. it was probably how i designed the game, but they all felt that dice were superior and more fun. despite my enthusiasm for using cards, they all felt that the dice would have made play much quicker and simpler (lord knows, i'm all about the simple) plus they seemed to be unsure as to what exactly they had in there hand and what it was that they should be laying out for their actions and whatnot. it was a learning experience for sure and i have shied away from using cards ever since. though i still really like those certain aspects of using cards thats makes play different and unique.

TORG aka Masterbook also used cards, though they had their own special deck. They tried to make it widely useful, running action order from it, bonuses to certain types of conflict actions (defense, attack, trickery, etc) as well as dramatic task completetion (by collecting and playing a sequence of A B C D etc cards) as well as subplot type things. They had a good amount of rules dealing with how many cards you can have, tradign them to others, refreshing your hand and so on.

Ravenloft for 2nd Edition used Tarot cards for some elements of story generation. I thought it was quite nifty. You could probably get some inspiration from that.

Another game that used cards for resolution I haven't seen mentioned yet was the SAGA system, by Wizards of the Coast. They created two similar versions: one for DragonLance 5th Age play, and one for Marvel Super Heroes play. The Marvel version was often considered the more polished and better balanced of the two, but the DragonLance version had more work done on it. They both had some nice ideas you might want to take a look at, particularly some of the alternative uses for cards/success interpretation in the SAGA Companion.

I like the idea of using tarot cards for conflict resolution. It could easily help contribute to the type of fantasy mood you're going for.

Kind of related, but this got me thinking, has anyone ever tried using tarot cards as a means of character creation? Maybe one of the archetypes on the major arcana represents the core personality of your character while other cards in your reading contribute to other traits they possess.

Jack wrote:
I like the idea of using tarot cards for conflict resolution. It could easily help contribute to the type of fantasy mood you're going for.

Kind of related, but this got me thinking, has anyone ever tried using tarot cards as a means of character creation?

Vulpinoid,
          That sounds like a really fun idea. I'll have to try that out sometime.

I'm just posting to say that I'm very, very interested in the progress of this thread.  If I can get to the point where I can contribute meaningfully, I will.  I am interested because one game I'd like to see/make one day is a game that allows players to be wizards/sorcerers/whatevers who create and cast spells toward the purpose of making the ultimate magical discovery (think: philosopher's stone).  I choose cards versus dice because I'd like the cards to fill multiple roles: conflict resolution, spell creation components, and loaded narrative elements.  Tarot seems to me to be the obvious choice as it's already laden with dramatic, human meaning. 

I'm going to stop here because I need to put a lot more thought and gather a lot more research for my present ideas, but my point is: don't leave this thread to die because I'm watching it!

Thanks for posting,

-- John M.

When I first looked at DitV I looked into ways you could do that with cards instead of dice. I dislike skiploads of dice based systems, dislike d4's, and was really turned off by the prospect of combining the two.

The basic idea was that you draw cards instead of rolling dice. For better die types you draw two and discard the lower one. For penalty dice types you discard the higher card. I even went to the lengths of giving it a run-through (something based around Scooby Doo, the dog had a major relationship with Scooby snacks).

I think it works as well as the dice based system. There are some questions about whether to discard from the hand or just from the pick. This really changes the way you would use penalty cards. Running an extended contest nearly expended a full deck of cards, but this may be the way I went for using every possible trait on the character sheet. A deck of Tarot cards would be a little harder to exhaust.

Jack wrote:
Kind of related, but this got me thinking, has anyone ever tried using tarot cards as a means of character creation? Maybe one of the archetypes on the major arcana represents the core personality of your character while other cards in your reading contribute to other traits they possess.

Hm, I neglected in my post to mention that character, setting and situation creation could be up for (Tarot) card rules as well.  For these three, I was also thinking about a system that uses something akin to a Tarot spread.  I'd like to see a game where players don't have to conjure each story element from thin air.  I'm not as experienced with doing so, (and my range of tastes is somewhat limited) therefor I appreciate games that give the player an idea seed or a scenario, allowing the player color in between the lines.  So, for a scenario or scene, you might have a mini-tarot spread that gives clues as to what the scene could or must be about.  Players possibly take turns interpreting the spread or defining it in such a way as to frame the scene.  From a gamist perspective, you might use the cards to determine what goals are present in order for a scene to be properly finished, with potential rewards and consequences.  That's the sort of road I was looking to travel.

My first thought is to have charts that tell you what the cards mean during a Character, Setting or Situation spread.  Sometimes charts can be unwieldy "during play", but if they're for set-up or prep they can become their own part of play that can be fun.  The charts themselves can even be appropriately thematic to add to a game's mood, assuming you want one.

-- John M.