Topic: Investigation subsystem for Burning Wheel using Zendo
Started by: Guy Srinivasan
Started on: 8/29/2008
Board: First Thoughts
On 8/29/2008 at 10:08pm, Guy Srinivasan wrote:
Investigation subsystem for Burning Wheel using Zendo
The following is a story about how I began thinking about an investigation subsystem for Burning Wheel. My goal is to create something that my group would enjoy, so lack of familiarity with Zendo is not a problem. Enjoy and help, especially if you've played Zendo!
After playing in an investigative Mage campaign and thinking about how to add puzzles to BW, I had essentially this highly paraphrased and probably quite modified discussion, over many months, with another person I play with:
Guy: I want puzzles in BW. Discuss.
Eric: Impossible. Puzzles and investigations in general are dysfunctional in RPGs.
Guy: Wait what? Really?
Eric: The players must determine a piece of information X to continue. If they cannot use numbers on characters sheets to help then why is this in an RPG? If they can just roll to determine X then why are you calling it a puzzle? If they will find it out no matter what then how does it feel like an investigation?
Guy: What about rolling to get hints, etc.?
Eric: Notice that when you're solving a puzzle while not in an RPG you are sad if you need to get hints to win.
Guy: You can still tell a good story about investigation, like InSpectres.
Eric: Sure. Equivocate "investigation" and you can call it a puppy too. You fail.
Guy: You make many valid points. Let's break down combat as a subsystem of games and figure out which parts we need, and why they're not present in naive puzzle implementations.
After doing so, we came up with 4 main goals:
• failed rolls do not block progress
• numbers on a character sheet matter
• the subsystem feels like solving a puzzle
• the subsystem is tightly tied to the rest of BW
Some ancillary discoveries we made along the way:
• Combat in the form that we like boils down to a well-established puzzle subsystem with very natural-seeming color. You alternately make tricky decisions about what's best to do in your current state and see how the numbers on your character sheet move you to a new state. Each decision is a mini-puzzle and has the same feel that mini-puzzles have, but disguised as an activity you can visualize in the real world rather than an abstract crossword or something.
• Traditionally, puzzles have binary resolutions - pass or fail. Or if not that, at least only one natural point of contact with the rest of the game, where you discover how well you did on the puzzle. It's hard to tie things in with the rest of the game without many points of contact.
• The bit where the players are thinking of tricky things is distinct from the bit where the puzzle is part of the story in the rest of the RPG.
And now to the draft!
BW ZENDO
• First the GM and preferably the players should have played Zendo.
• To begin an investigation, the GM secretly writes down a rule to classify sculptures as red or black (the rule should be easier than in a traditional Zendo game), builds one sculpture marked red, builds one sculpture marked black, and secretly writes down a description of 6 sculptures to be used in a Big Reveal.
• During an investigation, any roll may be suggested by anyone to be an investigation roll. The GM has authority over which rolls are investigation rolls.
• An investigation roll is a roll like any other in BW - it has success and failure consequences. Additionally, if the roll succeeds, the player may call for a Zendo action of his choice. If the roll fails, the GM calls for a Zendo action of his choice.
• On any investigation roll, if the players guessed correctly on the previous sculpture, that roll is at +1D. If they guessed incorrectly, it is at +1 Ob. If no guess was made, the roll is not modified.
• Before any investigation roll, a player may declare a Big Reveal. The GM builds his 6 sculptures and the players must try to classify all of them. The player rolling has final authority over each guess. Once their guesses are made, the GM reveals the rule. If they are right, the roll gets +5D. If they are wrong, the roll gets +3 Ob. A Big Reveal ends the investigation, succeed or fail.
Zendo actions:
-Player builds a sculpture and guesses its classification, and GM classifies it. (called "Mondo" in Zendo)
-Player builds a sculpture and GM classifies it. (called "Master")
-GM builds a sculpture and players guess its classification, and GM classifies it.
-GM builds a sculpture and classifies it.
-Player makes a guess at the rule. If correct, the investigation ends. If incorrect, GM builds a counterexample.
The fake AP, during a murder investigation, showing what my conception of play would be:
Eric: I'll look around outside for a trail or something.
Mike: Let's examine the body first, maybe he just offed himself.
Eric: Yeah okay.
Robin: Sokel kneels over the body and examines it without touching anything. My intent is to discover cause of death, by cursory examination.
GM: Good. Anatomy Ob 2. Obviously an investigation roll.
Robin: All right, Beginner's Luck Perception B4, help from both of you? Okay, that's 1+2 for B7. 1,1,3,5,5,5,6 hits Ob 4.
GM: Male, age about 30, no blood, some bruising around the neck makes it clear he was strangled.
Robin: "Notice these red marks about the neckal region. Definitely strangled." I want a Mondo.
(Robin builds a sculpture, the players decide black, the GM marks it red.)
Eric: Perfect. Time for my tracking at +1 Ob.
...
Mike: When the Captain enters his quarters, Jinny's sitting in his desk chair and has obviously been crying. He is quite taken aback that she's here. Jinny hears him come in and jumps to her feet, throwing herself at him, and shutting the door in the process. He's definitely uncomfortable but before he would decide to throw her out or anything she begins whispering in his ear the evidence that he is the murderer. My intent is that Jinny have her way with him, and we Big Reveal. That's okay with everyone right?
Everyone: Go for it!
GM: Seduction Ob Will, and here's your sculptures!
(GM builds 6 sculptures, players classify them all correctly)
Mike: B4 with Persuasion FoRK +1D and Big Reveal +5D, and a Persona +1D, is 11D vs Ob 6. Damn!
GM: Captain Vincol grows angrier and angrier as you continue whispering. When you're done, he throws open the door and yells, "Guards!" It seems you've found your murderer!
Some obvious questions:
1. Who gets to Big Reveal and when? I presume there can be DoWs about this and such, but rules might be helpful. For example, can the GM force a Big Reveal?
2. Rewards for correctly guessing the rule are currently nonexistent. My intuition is that giving a Fate or Persona for correctly guessing the rule is a fine plan.
3. Who gets to make investigation rolls? Right now the GM ultimately has full authority. Should there be a "roll economy"? Is it possible to tell before playtesting?
The big question:
4. I want to reward the players for either correctly guessing the rule or Big Revealing after fewer rather than more sculptures. How? This is required to solidify numbers on a character sheet matter and the subsystem is tightly tied to the rest of BW. Otherwise it's just "who builds things, players or the GM?".
Thanks,
Guy
On 8/30/2008 at 12:36am, Susan Calvin wrote:
Re: Investigation subsystem for Burning Wheel using Zendo
The non-canonical sourcebook Historiens Portar by Martin Ericsson, while mostly dealing with the history and the Swedish Muséet för Historia as a campaign setting had some points on research. Data search rolls are fairly simple and easily understood, like Library Use, Streetwise, Academics or whatever is appropriate for the setting. Sorting through and understanding the data in search for specific facts requires more narrow skills, typically ones closely associated with the subject like Heraldry, Occultism, Law or such. When it comes to connecting the dots and understanding the material, the players are on their own. Just serving up end results after a die roll misses out the point of the puzzle in the first place.
On 8/30/2008 at 1:32am, Guy Srinivasan wrote:
RE: Re: Investigation subsystem for Burning Wheel using Zendo
Susan wrote: When it comes to connecting the dots and understanding the material, the players are on their own. Just serving up end results after a die roll misses out the point of the puzzle in the first place.
Quite so. Here's what I'm trying to do: in combat systems that encourage gamism, the rules are very effective at helping the players and/or GM generate little mini-puzzles over and over, but in investigation systems, all of those puzzles are left up to the scenario/GM to design and introduce. I want a system that generates the mini-puzzles-to-be-given-to-the-players for the GM like e.g. the combination of a grid, terrain, and varied superpowers does in D&D.
I want the investigation story akin to Inspectres, where the players make up the mystery as they go rather than the GM having to come up with a brilliant, clever plot to challenge the player skill in "connecting the dots and understanding the material", and the investigation feeling coming from another system which is far more conducive to challenging the players.
The goal is for a GM to be able to run a game that is or has components of a puzzle/mystery/etc which legitimately challenges the players' skill at inductive reasoning but doesn't require the GM to outsmart several other brains.
On 9/1/2008 at 11:57pm, Guy Srinivasan wrote:
RE: Re: Investigation subsystem for Burning Wheel using Zendo
More thought, more discussion, and Vulpinoid's GAS Project have produced this refinement. It's more streamlined and focused, and more easily portable.
Burning Investigation
• First the GM and preferably the players should have played Zendo.
• For any intent, if the appropriate task is an investigation (find the murderer, unlock the door, etc), you may begin the Investigation mechanics.
• To begin an Investigation,
1) the GM (final authority) and players decide whether it will be Not A Big Deal/Standard/Big Deal
2) the GM (final authority) and players decide how many secret sculptures the GM will build and how many rounds maximum the Investigation may take
3) the players decide whether they want to do the Investigation given these decisions
4) the GM secretly writes down a rule to classify sculptures as red or black (its difficulty guided by how big a deal it is), builds one sculpture marked red, and builds one sculpture marked black
5) the GM secretly builds several sculptures to be used in the Big Reveal according to the agreed terms
• During an Investigation, any roll may be suggested by anyone to be an investigation roll. The GM has authority over which rolls are investigation rolls.
• An investigation roll is a roll like any other in BW - it has success and failure consequences. Additionally, if the roll succeeds, the player may either Guess the rule or build a sculpture and call Master or Mondo. If the roll fails, the GM builds a sculpture of his choice and calls either Master or Mondo.
• On any investigation roll, if the previous sculpture was a Mondo and the players guessed correctly, that roll is at +1D. If they guessed incorrectly, it is at +1 Ob. If the previous sculpture was a Master, the roll is not modified.
• Before any investigation roll with an intent orthogonal to the intent of the Investigation, a player may declare a Big Reveal in which they try to classify the GM's secret sculptures. Success gives +3/5/7D on this final investigation roll and success on the original Investigation intent. Failure gives +2/3/4 Ob on this final investigation roll and failure on the original Investigation intent. A Big Reveal ends the investigation, succeed or fail.
• Each Master, Mondo, Guess, and Big Reveal is one round of the Investigation. If the last round occurs without a Big Reveal or successful Guess, the players have failed at their Investigation intent.
Zendo actions:
-Master: GM classifies a built sculpture as red or black
-Mondo: Players guess which way a built sculpture will be classified, then GM classifies it
-Guess: Players guess a rule and the GM builds a counterexample or the Investigation intent succeeds.
-Big Reveal: GM reveals his secret sculptures and the players try to classify all of them. The player rolling has final authority over each guess. Once their guesses are made, the GM reveals the rule and classifies all of the sculptures. If the players were right on all guesses, they succeed, but if they were wrong on any, they fail.
I will try to put this through a first playtest a week or two from now. If you see any problem areas I should fix before that, let me know. Or if you see a good way to e.g. tighten up the decisions on how many secret sculptures, how many rounds, difficulty of rule, etc.
Guy
Forge Reference Links:
Topic 26553
On 9/2/2008 at 1:03am, Vulpinoid wrote:
RE: Re: Investigation subsystem for Burning Wheel using Zendo
This is great...it's exactly the sort of thing that I was looking for.
I'm now going to have to develop a concept to meet my own challenge.
V