Hi there,

I was looking through the Fantasy Heartbreaker games again, comparing various features of Deathstalkers. Deathstalkers has been released this year in hardback form (called "second edition" by the author) and it's a classic Heartbreaker. Based on my reading, its strengths lie mainly in an elaborate but definitely dynamic combat system and a lot of extremely overt Gamist design features (I find open Gamist design to be refreshing and honest).

This post is about something much more specific, though. Deathstalkers includes a character race called the Half-dead, kind of wasted, scary-looking dudes. I then realized that Darkurthe: Legends (1994) includes its Druine, and Forge: Out of Chaos (1998) includes its Dunnar. They're all pretty much the same thing - physically frail, scary-evil in appearance, some undead qualities, but all qualified by "not really being undead" and "not such bad folks as people think."

The scholar in me is twitching his nostrils. Where does this come from?

Option #1: coincidence. Undead are wasted and scary, some players like to play wasted and scary characters, so here's a character race for them. Maybe all three games just independently derived'em from the same in-play demand. Option #2: non-fantasy game influence. With Vampire and so forth out there, and the burgeoning of horror-nasty content in role-playing games through the mid-90s, it's only what you'd expect in terms of features showing up in any and every game, not just these. Option #3: official or unofficial D&D content. All the Heartbreakers represent reactions to and refinements of D&D in one form or another, often in a kind of love/hate, homage/rebellion combination.

I suspect #3, partly because the three races across the three games are so similar, partly because influences from other RPGs are so scant in Heartbreakers. However, I don't immediately see the direct influence from old (pre-2nd edition) D&D, which is what I'm most familiar with. Paul Czege reminded me of the Revenant in the Fiend Folio, which seems to match slightly (despite being really undead). People might want to play a slightly more sympathetic version of the Revenant as written, and it might enter into the same unofficial but widespread status as the Evil Paladin. That still seems to be reaching a bit though.

For those of you who were more attuned to D&D culture than I was in the late 80s, was there such an unofficial race/class as the Kinda Undead Guy, roaming through the games? (Again, think Evil Paladin, or Drow, or Dragon in Human Form, or any of the other non-canonical but "standard in play" types.) Or, alternately, was there a specific race or type of character that showed up in a supplement or canonical setting that would have taken hold?

Best,
Ron

Undead characters didn't become vogue among the people I gamed with until Ravenloft was released, which was deep into 2E territory. But hell, 2E was released when I was still in high school, when pretty much the only people I gamed with were a couple cousins of mine, so my experience is admittedly limited.

I'm kind of inclined to believe that as "dark" fantasy became more popular, so did these sorts of characters. Dark fantasy is practically defined by its proliferation of undead and ghoulish monster types, so undead PCs makes sense (sort of). Darkurthe Legends I have, and it definitely aims for that niche, and Deathstalkers bills itself as a horror-fantasy rpg. So it might just be the designers' attempt to be "dark" and "grim".

Deathstalkers was heavily influenced by Rolemaster and Warhammer. Warhammer doesn't allow for undead PCs (IIRC), but I'll bet Rolemaster did (can't verify, since my old Rolemaster books were given away long, long ago). My point is, maybe games from the early 80's other than D&D are having a substantial impact on the Fantasy Heartbreakers of today.

Take care,
Scott

Hi Scott,

I buy all your points about the timing and intent of the trend. What I'm after is a smoking gun - the first appearance of a wasted, pale, grim semi-Undead character, probably misunderstood, probably all tormented and dangerous, in a D&D or (as you point out) almost-D&D context.

You may be overestimating the comparative efforts of Fantasy Heartbreaker authors. Based on the games I've cited, there is no evidence that they even looked at non-D&D games. They routinely tout "innovations" that reach well back into the early 80s or late 70s, for example. But OK, I accept that it's a possibility. Still, these Almost-Dead Pale characters aren't in Warhammer, nor in Rolemaster, at least not in the main books.

The Ravenloft reference sounds promising, though. Jesse, you know that setting pretty well, right? Does anything there seem likely to have spawned this "character race" in the Heartbreakers?

Best,
Ron

I always though of these "character races" as designed for those munchkins who insist on playing Elric (i.e. just about all of them). One cannot actually play Elric in these systems or in D&D without massive deprotagonization or massive overriding of system constraints or both, but that never stopped people from trying. Design an Elric who fits into the constraints of the game system, and you get... a wasted, pale, grim semi-Undead character, probably misunderstood, and probably all tormented and dangerous.

Just a theory, though, and it may not truly explain the convergence, especially the semi-undead part (though Elric does fit that description, with only a slight stretch). Did one of those D&D-based novel series that I'd rather pull my own instestines out with a fork than read have a character like this who may have served as the missing link?

- Walt

I'm pretty knowledgable on all that 80's D&D stuff, and I don't remember a race like this. (Actually, the only character type like this I can think of is the Harrowed from Deadlands. [Edit: there was a race like this in GURPS Fantasy Folk.])

Still, I think the reason you see it so often is because it's a compelling archetype: the misunderstood monster. The race is a near-match for Frankenstein's monster.

Is it me, or does this sound like Gollum from The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings?

I know it sounds very similar to The Lost, a concept I had for Orkworld. I think I even posted a badly-written piece of fiction about that on the old Orkworld board. It was later that I realised how similar the Lost was to Gollum. I haven't read the games in question. Is there any similarities?

Not a race as such, but Raistlen from Dragon Lance?

Who slowly became paler, more tortured and closer to being undead than alive over the course of a trilogy?

He was also part of a sect of Magicians who, quite literally, wear their alignment on their sleeves.

--Simon

My view is it might be a more general influence. There seems to be a continual flow from non-player -> player. I think this might be evidence of that trend.

I believe this comes from a sort of fasination with evil and the fact that a member of a traditional 'enemy' that is good has alot of good story potential in it. This is partly rise-fall-redeption stories, like starwars are popular.
Although you can also have 'exiled', seperated or somehow different members of the 'enemy'. Star Trek has Worf and Odo. Also you can have characthers who are not unambiguiosuly 'good' but enough that it makes them interesting. (To cont. the Star Trek example, Garrik).

Also of course, there is just the thrill of being a race that was 'forbidden' before. Also, evil races are usually percieved as 'better' in some way, so there is probably a bit of gamism there. This is generally born out in literature also. Drizzt kicks butt.
This seems to happen to just about anything. Vampires were orignally evil night monsters, but are now there is Vampire the RPG. Most efforts like this turn the group from 'enemy' to 'really complex people who arn't necessaraly evil'. Dragons are another example. We have the spectrum from monstors->Pern. Note that this usally happens to 'intelligent' enemies, enemys players can respect.
Even DnD now has half-orks.

DnD I think is somewhat resistant to this due to the fact that having, say playable vampires would involve facing how silly alignment actually is. ( I think there is a small section about this in the Monstor Manuel though, it mostly deals with balance though and assumes you'll 'make up some extrodianry story to explain the aligment thing')

I admit that my game experiance covers quite a bit less than most people here. In terms of Ron's options, I suppose this comes out as a vote for #2.

Elric? I could always use novel suggesions. What is this?

Hello,

Damion, you might be right - any of the three options might be the right one - but I'm sufficiently convinced of the derivative nature of the Heartbreakers, as a group, that "a feeling" based argument isn't very strong.

Jack, the Gollum reference has some similarities, but it doesn't match in a way that accounts for the similarities in these characters across the specific RPG designs. I'm also pretty convinced that few, if any, of the Heartbreaker authors actually read much fantasy aside from RPG-related publications.

Who is this Raistlen? That sounds like it might be on track. Was there a curse involved? Was he a fan-fave kind of character?

Best,
Ron

Ron Edwards wrote: Hello,


Who is this Raistlen? That sounds like it might be on track. Was there a curse involved? Was he a fan-fave kind of character?

Best,
Ron

Ron Edwards wrote:
Who is this Raistlen? That sounds like it might be on track. Was there a curse involved? Was he a fan-fave kind of character?

Ron Edwards wrote: Who is this Raistlen? That sounds like it might be on track. Was there a curse involved? Was he a fan-fave kind of character?

[Reading back I should have mentioned I'm thinking in terms of option 3.]

Damion: From my perspective (26 years old, living in NZ) Dragonlance squats on the landscape here much like Star Wars, Red Dwarf or Doctor Who. I've only read the first trilogy (I was about 11 or so) and most people my age I know in gaming have read at least that.

Perhaps I'm thinking too locally, but after reading Ron's initial post, Raistlen was the first thing that leapt into my head that may have had the sort of impact that'd drive people to homage him in a RPG.

Amiel: I'd forgotten about the hourglass eyes. They creeped me out a bit, they did.

--Simon

H'm,

Raistlin (?) (spelling varies on this thread) seems to be the right guy. Damion, I hear ya, but trust me on the history-of-gaming + history-of-fiction connection. I think this guy is the smoking gun.

Elric does not fit the bill. To clarify for everyone, Elric is a significant fantasy-fiction hero whose stories first appeared in the late 1960s, written by Michael Moorcock. He was an extremely influential character, being physically weak, something of a drug addict, and bonded to an exceptionally perverse demonic sword named Stormbringer. There was a lot of the early David Bowie in Elric, or at least the glam thing in general.

However, Elric was not wasted and undead-looking; he was kind of pretty actually. He doesn't match the profile I'm looking for.

Raistlin sounds like an Elric ripoff to a certain extent. However, the various races in the Heartbreakers conform to his specific (non-Elric) physical and story-ish features very well. His presence in the D&D fiction, and I consider the Dragonlance books to be D&D fiction, lock, stock, and barrel, was more likely on the radar screens of the authors in question than Elric was.

Thanks to everyone for their help and input!

Best,
Ron

Hey Ron,

Personally, I'm not sure Raistlin is your smoking gun. I admit, the Dragonlance novels are just the kind of lake to be dragging for the hidden inspirations of curious elements found in fantasy heartbreakers, so I guess he's a candidate. But his physical weakness, coughing, supported by his tirelessly loyal brother, fueled in evil by his ambition, just doesn't connect with undeadness as a concept for me.

However, Blizzard just released WarCraft III with a playable undead race. It seems to me that fantasy video games are another lake that might be hiding your smoking gun, and that the undead in WarCraft III could be a descendent of a common ancestor held with the Druine and Dunnar.

Paul

Yeah, I don't think raistlin fits.

Wasn't there a sorta construct/animated corpse in Dune somewhere? On of my players got a bit excited about this theme that way.

There were the Ghola in Dune - clones made from the dead. Originally, the ghola were just physical copies, but during the course of the books, they discovered a method for restoring a ghola's memories.

I'm not sure if the Ghola are the smoking gun either. Nor is Raistlin. Lord Soth (also from Dragonlance) might be a candidate - he's a former Paladin, cursed and transformed into an undead knight. He was a definite bad guy, though.

Untiring, tormented, pale, undead...y'know, it could just be the first ripples of Anne Rice's stuff hitting gaming, before Vampire: TM took off.

I got an idea...why doesn't someone contact the Dreamstalker guys and ask them what their inspiration was for them?

Hmm, what about Dream, from Neil Gaiman's Sandman? Not-wuite-human, dark, elegant... much the same target market as Vamp.

Hi Ralph,

That's a valid piece of data to collect (as from Black Dragon Publishing or from Basement Games), but it's not the horse's mouth one might expect. People are notoriously poor at understanding where and how they get ideas.

More generally, the smoking gun may or may not exist explicitly. Again, a good model is the Evil Paladin - a character type who was "begging to be played," and who occupied quite a lot of pages in places like Dragon and other secondary literature, and who showed up as NPCs, and eventually became an unofficial character class, functionally. Then we look at the Heartbreakers and discover "Black Paladin" or similar in the list of character classes.

Another good example would be the Lycanthrope, often a werebear (yes, I know that would be an Ursanthrope). People were playing D&D werebears when I was 13, and sure enough, a Heartbreaker or two has'em in there, with prose resembling the original monster manual text. Oh! and Minotaurs. They're all over the place in the Heartbreakers.

So my point is that there may not be a specific character or race in the "lake" that Paul mentions, although I would not be surprised to find one. If there were, Lord Soth is much more along the lines I would expect, rather than the Ghola from Dune. But on the other hand, it might just be a matter that some influential group somewhere played "zombie-like" characters and published an article in Dungeon or something. Any thoughts from that angle?

Best,
Ron

P.S. The video game idea is a good one, too. Anyone know about cool pale/wasted/cursed characters from them?

I have a few thoughts on this subject.
First, I agree with Moose about Ravenloft pushing people more towards the whole "undead are cool" mode of thinking. It wasn't long after that I saw someone play a vampire PC.

In a way, Raistlin can be considered the smoking gun, though as mentioned, he's not undead. On a related note, I once read that in the years following the Dragonlance series, the name Raistlin became more and more popular in books of baby names. I can't verify that, but it got in my head somehow.

Another Dragonlance character that is suspect is Lord Soth who is a death Knight from the series. Soth's popularity eventually lead to his own novels.

I think gamers in general have always had a desire to play evil (or semi-evil) characters. Playing an evil character feeds into a gamer's escapist nature, allowing him to play out aspects of his personality that are otherwise restrained. I think the current trend is more due to a change in social values than a specific character. In the past games have simply not offered the option to play such characters because it was considered inappropriate. I remember the first GENCON I attended. Games that were run there had a ton of restricutions along this vein: no drugs, no evil characters, no gore...hell, they even restricted the deprotagonization of law enforcement. I'm not sure if this is still the case, but I find it unlikely.

Lately, being evil is cool. Is it coincidence that Darth Maul, Boba Fett, and Jango Fett were the coolest characters in the last 3 star wars films? Villains/criminals are glorified more and more in films: Pulp Fiction, The Way of the Gun, From Dusk Til Dawn, The Sopranos...hell name any mobster movie.

While I'm looking outside the gaming industry, I should mention Ann Rice's Interview With The Vampire and Vampire Hunter D as a significant influences to this trend. The Demon from Legend is another quotable evil character from the 80s that exudes coolness.

,Matt G.

- "Every wolf suffers flees...it is easy enough to scratch"

Ron Edwards wrote: For those of you who were more attuned to D&D culture than I was in the late 80s, was there such an unofficial race/class as the Kinda Undead Guy, roaming through the games? (Again, think Evil Paladin, or Drow, or Dragon in Human Form, or any of the other non-canonical but "standard in play" types.) Or, alternately, was there a specific race or type of character that showed up in a supplement or canonical setting that would have taken hold?

Hi Fang,

You've confirmed a suspicion. The githyanki were actually my first guess, based on the visuals, and the consistent text across the three Heartbreakers that this "race" isn't, you know, really undead. And the Ravenloft + Lord Soth combo also seems strong as a secondary influence.

That's enough material for me. I'm interested in other suggestions or thoughts, but the composite "gun" seems pretty solid.

Best,
Ron

Fang, you may be on to something there. I remember seeing the Githyanki in the Fiend Folio when I was in junior high. I've never really been into the evil undead PC, but I thought the Githyanki were cool & wanted to play one.

So, if they're not the actual smoking gun, I suspect they're part of the equation at the very least.

Hey guys,

I must have miscommunicated somehow. "Evil" is not part of the picture. These are sympathetic characters, usually misunderstood. "Cursed" is part of it, so is "scary." They look undead, but they aren't.

Best,
Ron

The problem with pointing to any single character is that they are just that, and not a race. I find that an unlikely influence.

Let's not forget the Githzeri (sp?) from Feind Folio 2. Weren't they like the Githyanki, but without the "bandaged" look? BTW, the githyanki are resusitated (appearance wise) in the computer game Myth as the Myrmidons. IIRC, a cursed race of nigh-undead warriors wrapped in bandages. And you see similar creatures in another later day product, GURPS Fantasy II. Still, the Githyanki were a rare reference before their prominence in Spell-Jammer, IIRC. Which might have been too late to be an influence on some of the games in question.

The drow, come to mind as a pale cursed race (speaking of Drizzt), but they are already repeated in most hearbreakers. Dark elves are a staple, in fact, almost as common as the ubiquitous cat and bird people. So I think they are actually unlikely as well. I don't think this comes directly from a D&D race, at all.

It seems far more likely that these things just accreted out of the Anne Rice sort of influences that someone mentioned. Essentially, they are simply Goth races. Pale, not quite undead, angstie, though not necessarily bad, and often misunderstood. Fits the bill for me.

Mike

Whoa, I seem to be coming in a bit late in this discussion but Ron asked me a direct question about Ravenloft, so I'll answer. First off, as much as I like the Ravenloft setting as an *idea* I've never really pursued that idea until recently. I've always picked up and browsed Ravenloft products and websites but it wasn't until this White Wolf published 3rd Edition version that I have actually purchased and read through it. However, there are two possible candiates that come to mind.

1) There is a race option whose name I can't remember off the top of my head. It begins with a C. They use the same racial modifiers as Half-Orcs and they are described as being somewhat Quasimodo-ish. Cursed at birth, born deformed and are often huge hunchback hulking monsters. But nothing to suggest and undeadness.

2) There's a lich king in Ravenloft named Azalin. He is a VERY popular figure from Ravenloft and is central to several published adventures and the metaplot/history of Ravenloft. Even the support forum on the official 3rd Edition Ravenloft website is called Ask Azalin in which the moderator answers rules/setting questions, 'in character' as Azalin.

Finally, if Fang's description is the original Githyanki prensentation then when the hell did they become extraplaner creatures from the plane of Limbo who are capable of shaping 'chaos' with their minds? My only experience with the Githyanki is from the CRPG Planescape: Torment and there isn't any mention of lich kings, or mummy like beings in that.

Jesse

Hi Jesse and everyone,

Since we might be dealing with a composite, a certain amount of looseness has to be accepted.

The Githyanki are not undead. But especially in their pre-Planescape presentation, they looked kinda undead and were illustrated in a more wasted, emaciated, wrapped, lurching-around kind of way. (Now, post-3rd edition, they just look like guys with no noses, but they used to be scarier and freakier looking.)

The Ravenloft material is looking more and more influential, the more I hear about it. No surprise that a more "zombie-like" appearance and style might have come from this direction. And Jesse's description of the "starts with a C" race is nigh-on an exact match for the text in Forge: Out of Chaos.

Best,
Ron

Ron Edwards wrote:
I must have miscommunicated somehow. "Evil" is not part of the picture. These are sympathetic characters, usually misunderstood. "Cursed" is part of it, so is "scary." They look undead, but they aren't.

Quick note to JB:

The transparent-skinned, visible-bone characters are a direct steal from Fritz Leiber's "ghouls" from the later-written Fafhrd & Mouser stories. They were included and illustrated in the Deities & Demigods writeup of that setting. I'm not sure whether you're remembering them from there or from Tunnels & Trolls, although the specific reference from the latter isn't springing to my mind.

Best,
Ron

The first characters that I can think of in this style (which no doubt influenced people) were Adam from Mary Shelley's Frankenstein and Erik from Gaston LeRoux's Phantom of the Opera. One's "undead" and misunderstood, the other scarred and vengeful but romantic. Both are scary, feared by others and possessing great abilities (Adam had awesome strength, Erik was a mad genius).

- J

I'm just posting this for future reference...

The name of the Ravenloft race I couldn't remember is the Caliban. I found a reference to it on a Ravenloft message board. The poster claims that The Caliban, or at least the word, is taken from Shakespears's The Tempest, although I can not comment on this since I have not read this particular play.

Jesse

Hi there,

Nathan wrote,
"I'm wondering, Ron, are you sure the whole thing isn't just an obligatory nod to the undead trend of the 80s?"

That was my possibility #2, in the opening post of the thread. I have not (and cannot) discount any of the three possibilities. My being "sure" of anything is pretty far off the radar screen of this thread as a whole.

Jesse,
"Caliban" is a character in Shakespeare's The Tempest - a twisted, malevolent monster-guy. Thanks for following up on the published name of the race in question.

Best,
Ron

Ron beat me to the Leiber originiation for invisisble-fleshed skeletons. My guess at the "root" for mostly-undead races is . . . the Lich. Going way back to the Tomb of Horrors and Dark Tower (from Judge's Guild), the Lich was the ultimate nemesis. And of course, that meant there was always some player that wanted to play a Lich character.

A method to satisfy this desire was needed, and the half-undead race was the solution. At least, that's be my guess.

Other possibilities - checking with my DD3e GM (winner of the D&D Triviathlon in the waning days of TSR), there was apparently a "Psuedo Undead" monster in the Monster Manual II, based on a cult that had appeared in an RPGA module.

Githzerai/Githyanki, if I recall correctly, go back to the White Dwarf magazine from Games Workshop, whose Warhammer stuff has an "undead" race, don't they?

Another tack is that we're simply talking about Elfs here - without the happy-happy goody-goody veneer, OR the Evil-except-for-for-this-PC drow-thing.

Gordon

jburneko wrote: If Fang's description is the original Githyanki presentation, then when the hell did they become extraplaner creatures from the plane of Limbo who are capable of shaping 'chaos' with their minds? My only experience with the Githyanki is from the CRPG Planescape: Torment and there isn't any mention of lich kings, or mummy like beings in that.

Gordon C. Landis wrote: Githzerai/Githyanki, if I recall correctly, go back to the White Dwarf magazine from Games Workshop

Hi Fang,

The benefit of the thread for me is that I'm enjoying myself and learning a lot of things. This kind of comparative musing about different RPGs and influences is a major goal of this forum, which until now has been vastly under-realized.

As far as coming to "proof" or "conclusions" is concerned, that's up to everyone individually, perhaps as modulated by debate if necessary (probably not, in this case).

If the thread seems to have been thrashed out as far as you think it can go, then feel free not to check out further posts ... that's what all of us will do, after all, one by one.

Best,
Ron

DragonLance was originally developed as a "module of the month" series, and each was supposed to showcase one of the ten kinds of dragons. It also expanded into fiction at the same time. The idea was to have stories which players could re-enact with the modules (you want to talk about hard-core "railroading"...hooo, boy...it started HERE...those modules fell apart if you deviated from the established plot).

JB, Raistlin was not a half-elf, he was fully human. As to the humans-with-invisible-everything-but-bones: Leiber had those first...one of Fafhrd's lovers was such a creature.

James, DragonLance was not simply inspired by D&D, it was created and published by TSR, the original creators of D&D, and was made up whole-cloth there at the offices (there was no DL game world prior to an internal meeting at TSR, nor any fiction). It was a purely internal creation, with Weis & Hickman being brought in to develop the fiction aspect of the setting.

And Ron, I have to disagree with your calling him the smoking gun...I personally immediately thought of Elric as the progenitor you were looking for upon reading your first post, and if he doesn't fit the bill, then neither does Raistlin.

Raistlin is not pale and white, his skin is actually a golden color as a result of the curse he suffers; second, he was a twin, with his brother Caramon being the strong and healthy one (also "good" to his brother's "evil"), a rather important aspect of the character; and he was not in any way remotely undead nor even a necromancer.

If anything, his student Dalamar fits the profile more closely, but I think we're looking in the wrong place for the beginnings of an archetype.

Hi Raven,

Yeah, at this point I'm thinkin' the Caliban are more likely.

Best,
Ron

I dunno, Ron...I'd never even heard of the Caliban until now (well, except for Shakespeare), yet even I'd run across these "poetically tragic" races and characters you've described.

In all honesty, I think it isn't the result of a specific character, but the result (as Nathan pointed out) of the whole "Goth" trend that hit its high-profile/fad point in the 80's when most of the folks who produced the material about were having their opinions and imaginations shaped.

An excerpt from my Ravenloft 3E book:

"Thankfully rare, calibans are twisted humans exposed to curses or foul magic while still in the womb."

"Calibans are physically powerful but misshapen humanoids. No two calibans look alike, but common deformities include twisted backs, or limbs, asymetrical features, bristly skin, or tusklike teeth."

I did have a thought after reading Raven's post. It occured to me that Ravenloft didn't really take off as a setting until after the release of 2nd Edition D&D. Calibans use the EXACT same racial modifiers as Half-Orcs. Half-Orcs were not part of the core races in 2nd Edition but they are back in 3rd Edition. Therefore, it is entirely possible that the Calibans are a NEW, not an old, invention since the new writers would feel a need to fill the back in vogue Half-Orc role. Does anyone know if the Calibans actually EXISTED in 2nd Edition Ravenloft?

Jesse

I owned just about every Raveloft product for 2E up to a certain point. I gave up after the second or third of Van Richten's guides, but I'm pretty sure the Caliban were not part of the Ravenloft setting at that time. I'm certain they weren't included in the core rules, either the initial boxed set, or its revised incarnation.

- Scott

The necromancer class! I played one back in the day, but my GM made me abandon him after two sessions (he didn't want any evil aligned characters in the party).

He wasn't actually evil. He was a pale, wasted almost-undead looking guy, who wasn't really evil, just misunderstood. If I was to write a Fantasy Heartbreaker (god forbid) I'd definitely include a race based off my necromancer.

I don't know how widespread necromancers were, but I'd imagine they'd be up there with Evil Paladins.

Ron Edwards wrote: I buy all your points about the timing and intent of the trend. What I'm after is a smoking gun - the first appearance of a wasted, pale, grim semi-Undead character, probably misunderstood, probably all tormented and dangerous, in a D&D or (as you point out) almost-D&D context.

BTW, as an aside, Caliban were added to 3rd Edition Ravenloft as a half-orc equivalent, so I doubt they influenced any Heartbreakers... yet.

And while I'm rambling, I will note that I have no idea where these odd names for these guys come from, since the natural choice would be "ghoul" if my Lovecraft guess is right. Tho it might be a White Wolf influence. "We can't call it anything NORMAL. We need a strange non-English word for it."

I think the archetype is just a reverb from any 'cursed' persona from a tragic story. That's what i remember the most about the Monster Manuals & Fiend Folios; them taking classic storylines and myths and converting them to D&D rules so that the players, as heroes, can encounter them. Maybe later, players though about what things might look like from the other side of the treatment.

I think if you wanted to you could say the archetype is the Grendel or Troll-Mother from Beowulf. Vlad Tepesh from Dracula. The wendigo. Any cursed monster that has the semblance of humanity that exist among the periphery of humanity. Just take the cursed aspect, apply it to racial standards, then give them descriptors.

-
h

"wherein sits the monster brood, whereout lies humans, food."

Hi there,

Hmmmm, so we should add the Caliban as a member of the Heartbreaker panoply of races of this type, not as the originator. Hmmm-mm.

I think some folks are missing the point of the thread, though. Clearly, the overall archetype we're talking about is not new or original; I'm not looking for the literary source (Frankenstein's monster, Lovecraft's ghouls, etc). I'm curious specifically about the derivative nature of these seven or eight particular role-playing games, and their relationship to the texts and actual play of D&D. When I see a common thing in these games, I'm interested in whether it has a "common ancestor," as Paul put it, in the D&D history.

That's the only topic at hand. As I said, we may come up empty, although enough seems to have arisen at least to suggest a composite origin from those sources.

Best,
Ron

Hmmm. Look at it this way. The cat people phenomenon, which is much more pronounced in Heartbreakers, almost certainly takes from the Kzin (and their weird inclusion in the Star Trek Animated TV show). Bird people from Flash Gordon (I wanna be Brian Blessed!) and other myriad influences like Hawkman. These didn't come from D&D (though I'd woudn't be surprised to find that somesuch race did exist in D&D, the fact that I cannot remember such is enough for me to dismiss it as an influence). They came from outside influences that were just as potent as D&D to designers.

So, these designers want players to be able to play undead. I ascribe to the theory of the poster that said that they thought that these races were just an attempt to have an Undead race. The problem is that the Undead can't reproduce, so you can't have a race, per se. So what do you do? Make a race that is "like the undead" in almost every way.

Why does this strike me as so likely? Because, when I read that post, I remembered making a heartbreaker-like game in the eighties, and going through exactly the same logic. I want players to be able to play an undead race. But you can't have an undead race. So I'll make one that is like undead. At which point I rejected the idea as bing silly because that wasn't what I'd set out to do. It become an unsolvable conundrum.

It's weird to remember thinking in such a D&D mindframe. It's the notion that a character must have a race, class, etc breakdown. Why, if a player could play an animated skeleton, then he could play a dragon. Then where's your game balance gone? Has to ba a balanced race.

Man I'm glad we're past that sort of thinking.

Mike

After reading anyones comments, I think we could pin the phenomenon in question on a combination of Ron's option.
I think Option one + two provided the modivation for the semi-undead races. (Literature+the inate 'coolness' of being
a misunderstood 'not-quite-evil' charachter.) Then option 3, in the form of the Githyanki and possibly the Caliban provided the validation of the concept. Ron's description of these games indicates a derivative nature. (Many of their innovations are listed as options.) Thus, they might not have wished to create playable 'undead' without some indication that this was ok. Or to put it another way, these 'semi-undead' may not have existed without some 'semi-undead' element in DnD.

Kirt: Good point about Lovecraftian ghouls, although I'd be disinclined to count them without some other evidence of Lovecraft influence, as the ghouls were a realy minor part of the Mythos. Anyone know if these games have other Lovecraft like elements?

edit:Mike brought up CoC. Ghoul's wern't to big in Lovecraft's fiction, but seemed more common in game. If nothing else because it was concievable that you wouldn't have to make a whole new group after meeting them.

damion wrote: Kirt: Good point about Lovecraftian ghouls, although I'd be disinclined to count them without some other evidence of Lovecraft influence, as the ghouls were a realy minor part of the Mythos. Anyone know if these games have other Lovecraft like elements?

Perhaps ring wraiths too?

MattGwinn wrote: While I'm looking outside the gaming industry, I should mention Ann Rice's Interview With The Vampire and Vampire Hunter D as a significant influences to this trend.

I don't know. We may be looking for a smoking gun when all there really is is a bunch of bloody daggers.

It may be, as has been suggested eariler in this thread, that these races are a bi-product of what seems to be a recent trend (probably not all that recent. Is two decades old recent?) of making monster races into PC races, Orkworld being just one example, Vampire being another. It is simple logic to bring in an undead, or semi-undead race. But this doesn't explain the gross similarities between them, unless it's linked to ghouls in CoC or, perhaps, all of the authors saw The Hobbit as kids.

So . . . my instinct here is that this is a really old phenomena, definitely pre-Vampire. I saw plenty of homebrews with this feature (in some form) back in the late 70's. Talislanta has certainly got a race or three that qualifies - but Talislanta has a ton of races, and probably is either a bit late and/or a bit out of the main D&D track to "count". Some places to look:

Is there anything like this in Glorantha? I'm pretty sure there's nothing in C&S or T&T that really fits. What about Harn? Or Arduin? (I bet there's something in Arduin. I never was into it, and that *always* turns out to be where trends I don't get are from - like gunpowder/tech in your Fantasy)

What about the old computer games - Wizardry, Ultima, Bard's Tale? Early incarnations only, of course.

But it may be that the "find a 'balanced' way to let a PC be kinda-undead, 'cause undead are just uber-cool" (to summarize Mike's summary) is all there is to it - a shared desire that shows up in a bunch of games. Or . . . hey, isn't this the "Wild Elf?" Elf's, but nastier and more mysterious? Hmm, no real undead connection though. If only Wild Elves were Necromancers . . .

Gordon

Jack Spencer Jr wrote: I don't know. We may be looking for a smoking gun when all there really is is a bunch of bloody daggers.

Maybe there is an element of the supers trope of "imposed superiority". The virtue of the Undead is that they are ex-human, and therefore arguably more accessible than elves. Maybe being undead if the FRP equivalent of being bitten by a radioactive spider.

Ron

I would have to pitch in with Fang here, the very first thing that came to my mind when you asked your question was the Githiyanki. The fact that it was on the cover of the original Fiend Folio, and was just hella cool I think it would have loomed large in the collective heartbreaker community.

Since all of these heartbreaker authors presumably came from (A)D&D first, I can imagine it being the most likely common source. They definitely looked skeletal/mummy like, had some of the absolute coolest swords in all of AD&D (githiyanki silver swords could cut the astral silver thread, how cool is that.) They just looked damn cool. Being on a book cover can really add some resonance, I mean you don't see any flumph races in all these games (the only LG race in the original Fiend Folio:)).

Beyond that you have the Harryhausen type skeletons from Sinbad, Clash of the Titan's, and a few other movies of that era.

But I say the Githiyanki, if not the smoking gun, definitely left the largest amount of trace gunpowder there.

laterz

Rob

Hi everyone,

Well, I never expected this query to spawn five pages of almost-fully relevant, non-argumentative text. Thanks to everyone for joining in.

I've come to my conclusion, which is pretty much that the Githyanki (in specifics) and Ravenloft (composite, just "scary") were the main influences, and that no direct smoking gun seems evident. By "conclusion," I mean, provisional generalization - not truth or proof or belief. I'm sure everyone else, if they care, has come to a conclusion or another as well, whatever it might be.

Anyway, unless someone simply must contribute to the thread, I'm ready to call it quits. Thanks again.

Best,
Ron

Can't resist, Ron, I've got one more note. It occured to me after I mentioned Hawkman, and then read Gareth's post:

contracycle wrote: Maybe there is an element of the supers trope of "imposed superiority". The virtue of the Undead is that they are ex-human, and therefore arguably more accessible than elves. Maybe being undead if the FRP equivalent of being bitten by a radioactive spider.

Gordon C. Landis wrote: Or Arduin? (I bet there's something in Arduin. I never was into it, and that *always* turns out to be where trends I don't get are from - like gunpowder/tech in your Fantasy)
Gordon