Topic: Courage as Currency
Started by: vgunn
Started on: 1/6/2009
Board: First Thoughts
On 1/6/2009 at 7:47pm, vgunn wrote:
Courage as Currency
I'd like to make courage the currency for doing things within my game. If a character wants to cross a raging river, then they have to summon up enough courage to do so. One question I have is whether or not to make the amount of courage needed to attempt something hidden from the player. Using the river as an example again, lets say it has a Peril rating of 4. The character spends 3 points of Courage, however it is not enough and they are not able to even attempt the crossing. I think this works rather well in simulating just what someone has going through their mind when attempting something that carries a risk. I'd make Courage points refresh at a rate of 1 point per 10 minutes. Now lets say the character currently has 7 Courage points. They spent 3 points and have only 4 left. Now they could either wait for some or all of the points to refresh (10 to 30 minutes), or spend the 4 remaining points in hope it is enough. To add further tension is that summoning Courage is also required when facing a foe. On the other side of the river is a patrol of Orcs. If the character spends the last of the their Courage points he runs the risk that if encountered he cannot fight and will either flee in terror or be captured/killed.
The same rule applies for combat. Opponents must summon Courage to make an attack. Each side makes an initial bid. Lets say the character eventually crosses the river and all Courage points have been refreshed before an Orc on patrol discovers the character. The Character currently has 7 Courage points, while the Orc has 6 points. Nearly everything in the game requires Courage points to be spent in order to activate, so if either the character or the Orc wants to pull a blade and swing it will cost Courage. This means that not all Courage can be spent in the opening bid to gain the attack. The Character spends 2 points, while the Orc spends 1. The character gets to attack. He spents 1 point to activate his sword and swings (taking him down to 4 Courage points). The Orc must spend a point to Dodge or Parry the attack (taking the Orc down to 5 points). Character rolls 2d6 and adds appropriate skill to the result. If hit the Orc must roll to see what damage is suffered.
I thought that at this point if an attack were to hurt the Orc, the character could gain some Courage points back depending on how successful the strike was. Lets say that for every 3 points that was over the TN, you get 1 point of Courage (points could be lost as well if the attack were to fail at the same increment amounts).
Lets say that the sword struck the Orc with 2 extra successes. This means 2 points of Courage are immediately refreshed and starting the next round the character will 6 Courage points. The Orc suffers any damage and if still have will have 4 points of Courage to spend in the next round. The Orc could bid 3 points, hoping it will be enough to gain the attack and leaving 1 point left to swing the weapon. If the Orc manages to strike the character than it could gain back some or all of its Courage depending on how successful the attack was. I think this has potential for a nice ebb and flow to combat.
Thoughts?
PS – I am thinking that if a character or minion runs out of Courage, they could spend Attribute points. This would be very risky since the refresh rate on an attribute point is 1 per hour AND the reduction makes it more difficult to make a damage save.
On 1/6/2009 at 9:02pm, Castlin wrote:
Re: Courage as Currency
a few thoughts:
how about giving a courage reward when you accomplish something that cost courage? for example, you get over the river and get back half its peril. might help keep the game flowing quickly.
how might multiple characters influence each others' courage? could you spend your turn encouraging your friend, giving him bonus courage but taking a less effective action otherwise? would need some kind of diminishing returns mechanic to avoid follow-the-leader.
could there be traits or abilities which lessened the courage cost of certain actions, or in certain situations? situations might be easier to adjudicate. something like "loner" could give bonus courage if you're separated from your allies, while "street rat" could give bonuses in urban settings.
would be neat to have attacks directly against courage; fear spells and demoralizing speeches and the like.
On 1/6/2009 at 10:53pm, Filip Luszczyk wrote:
RE: Re: Courage as Currency
So, are you interested in having a mechanic that accurately simulates courage, like, say, a train simulator would simulate various factors of trains? Or is it rather that you want to make courage and the tension of making a brave decision a central point of your game?
If it's the former, I guess the rules should do the job (i.e. as long as they simulate the subject matter faithfully enough for your purposes).
If it's the latter, however, then I think with the rules of this sort, you could call your currency in any other way (like, Mana or Pointy Points ot whatever), and it wouldn't effectively change anything in the game. The tension would still be the same, as it has little to do with any actual courage. It's more a matter of the inherent tension of making bids.
What if the currency was less formal, however? Say, your character actually can do anything he attempts, as long as he shows courage. How can the character actually show courage, though? Well, obviously, by deciding to act despite the consequences of his choice. When the player is presented with an explicit risk and considers whether the character is resolved to act enough to accept that potential cost, then you have an actual tension. Say, will your character decide to charge the orcs at all, knowing that it will probably leave him maimed for the rest of his life (frex, you know there's an explicit 75% chance of that)? You can decide to step back, or you can decide that the possible loss of an arm is nothing and (automatically) dispatch the orcs, possibly suffering the fallout of your choice. And what if you also have an option to, rather than remaining passive, deal with the orcs in a despicable and cowardly manner, with absolutely no consequences involved (though maybe with a risk of a harmless failure attached)?
Something like this would make an actual courage the currency of your game, even though there would be no mechanical means to measure it. It's not the same as unlimited currency, at the same time, as the amount of actual courage would still be severly limited by your willingness to show it.
On 1/7/2009 at 5:44pm, vgunn wrote:
RE: Re: Courage as Currency
Castlin wrote:
a few thoughts:
how about giving a courage reward when you accomplish something that cost courage? for example, you get over the river and get back half its peril. might help keep the game flowing quickly.
how might multiple characters influence each others' courage? could you spend your turn encouraging your friend, giving him bonus courage but taking a less effective action otherwise? would need some kind of diminishing returns mechanic to avoid follow-the-leader.
could there be traits or abilities which lessened the courage cost of certain actions, or in certain situations? situations might be easier to adjudicate. something like "loner" could give bonus courage if you're separated from your allies, while "street rat" could give bonuses in urban settings.
would be neat to have attacks directly against courage; fear spells and demoralizing speeches and the like.
Good stuff.
Going back to the river, say the character spends 4 courage points and is able to attempt the crossing. If successful ALL courage points are refreshed AND for every additional success the character gets 1 bonus courage point. So with 3 successes the character get 7 courage points.
Another interesting thought is to add over-confidence into the mix. Lets say that a character bids 8 courage points against a peril of 4 knowing for sure this will be more than enough points. For every 2 points over the peril score, a -1 penalty modifier is applied to the attempt action as a consequence of being foolhardy.
I have had an idea of a Fellowship pool (similar to Trust in Cold City) that characters can draw from when needed if they are out of their own Courage.
I also love you idea on specific attacks against courage.
On 1/7/2009 at 5:52pm, vgunn wrote:
RE: Re: Courage as Currency
Filip wrote: What if the currency was less formal, however? Say, your character actually can do anything he attempts, as long as he shows courage. How can the character actually show courage, though? Well, obviously, by deciding to act despite the consequences of his choice. When the player is presented with an explicit risk and considers whether the character is resolved to act enough to accept that potential cost, then you have an actual tension. Say, will your character decide to charge the orcs at all, knowing that it will probably leave him maimed for the rest of his life (frex, you know there's an explicit 75% chance of that)? You can decide to step back, or you can decide that the possible loss of an arm is nothing and (automatically) dispatch the orcs, possibly suffering the fallout of your choice. And what if you also have an option to, rather than remaining passive, deal with the orcs in a despicable and cowardly manner, with absolutely no consequences involved (though maybe with a risk of a harmless failure attached)?
Something like this would make an actual courage the currency of your game, even though there would be no mechanical means to measure it. It's not the same as unlimited currency, at the same time, as the amount of actual courage would still be severly limited by your willingness to show it.
I like this approach as well, but not sure how I could model it. I think it would take a certain group for it to work.
On 1/9/2009 at 12:11am, LordNyax wrote:
RE: Re: Courage as Currency
It sounds like the beginning of an interesting system. One thing I'd watch out for is making too much of a guessing game for the players, because it can get frustrating to cautious players who might bid too low and fail, or to those who are afraid of failing and overbid and waste courage points. I would say that you don't have to eliminate the guessing game completely if you feel like that is part of the system you're envisioning, but you have to try and make it so that the players don't usually fall flat on their faces and waste resources because that isn't fun for anyone unless you're a sadistic GM (I do know a few of those).
If you make it so that there are fairly concrete tiers of required courage, say a slightly dangerous task requires 2 points, a moderately dangerous one requires 4, and an extremely dangerous one requires 8 or some such, and then when you're GMing use description to try and convey how each challenge falls into these categories, it would give the players a good idea at least of how many points theyd be spending. Also I would say that when a player bids a certain amount and just falls short he should still accomplish the task at least somewhat but suffer some consequence or loss of resources. Given the river example, if I player bid 3 and the difficulty was 4 you might still allow him to cross the river but say that he almost got washed away in the middle and lost his pack.
It seems like this system would probably be more effective coupled with other systems for more specific things, so maybe if you gave an idea of some of the other mechanics of your game we could go farther with it.
On 1/10/2009 at 4:19pm, vgunn wrote:
RE: Re: Courage as Currency
LordNyax wrote:
It sounds like the beginning of an interesting system. One thing I'd watch out for is making too much of a guessing game for the players, because it can get frustrating to cautious players who might bid too low and fail, or to those who are afraid of failing and overbid and waste courage points. I would say that you don't have to eliminate the guessing game completely if you feel like that is part of the system you're envisioning, but you have to try and make it so that the players don't usually fall flat on their faces and waste resources because that isn't fun for anyone unless you're a sadistic GM (I do know a few of those).
If you make it so that there are fairly concrete tiers of required courage, say a slightly dangerous task requires 2 points, a moderately dangerous one requires 4, and an extremely dangerous one requires 8 or some such, and then when you're GMing use description to try and convey how each challenge falls into these categories, it would give the players a good idea at least of how many points theyd be spending. Also I would say that when a player bids a certain amount and just falls short he should still accomplish the task at least somewhat but suffer some consequence or loss of resources. Given the river example, if I player bid 3 and the difficulty was 4 you might still allow him to cross the river but say that he almost got washed away in the middle and lost his pack.
It seems like this system would probably be more effective coupled with other systems for more specific things, so maybe if you gave an idea of some of the other mechanics of your game we could go farther with it.
With my system you roll 2d6 (reroll and add double to score) and trait and any relevant talents, equal or beat a difficulty number for success.
Trait score for a player is from 1-12, talent scores go from 1-6, there can be special conditions which can also provide positive/negative modifier.
A character can never have more than 12 points of Courage (or have less than zero) at any one time in the game.
Difficulty Ratings
Description Number Threat
Effortless 3 (0)
Easy 6 (1)
Routine 9 (2)
Challenging 12 (4)
Formidible 15 (6)
Hard 18 (8)
Nearly Impossible 21 (10)
Epic 24 (12)
Success
A character only needs to equal the Difficulty number of the Test to achieve a success. However, if the result beats the Difficulty by a significant margin additional success is awarded. Each time the result exceeds the next Difficulty number an additional success is awarded. Successes carry a number of different benefits for a character and will be explained in detail later in the chapter. For most attempts all you will need is a single success. There are times, however, that the Narrator may require more than one success for an action to succeed. For example, Gandalf is searching for a manuscript in the achieves of Minas Tirith and must pass a Routine Test (9) to locate the tome, but deciphering the text within he will need 3 Successes—effectively making the attempt Formidible. Not achieving the required successes does not mean that Gandalf failed, he found the book but was not, however, able to read the obscure writings within.
Foes and Perils have a Threat level from 1 to 12. A character who does not have enough Courage will suffer a penalty equal to the difference equal his Courage and the Threat level (a character with more Courage than the Threat will have a bonus equal to the difference). For example, a Character with 6 Courage is attempting to ford a danger river which has a Threat of 8. He may attempt to cross, but will suffer a -2 on the Test if he does. Further, the margin of Failure results in the number of Courage points he will lose as well as any consequences imposed by the Peril. So if you attempt to cross the river, but Fail badly suffering 3 Failures, you lose 3 Courage points and in addition will endure any consequences from your action. A character with more Courage than the Threat will have a bonus equal to the difference.
Example of Player vs a Peril:
Player has 4 Courage, the Peril for the river is rated 8. A -4 penalty is applied to the roll. The player has a Hroä (Sindarin for Body) score of 6 and Talents; Strong (3) and Agile (2) giving him a total of 11. A Hard Test is required (18 or higher to Succeed), 2d6 are rolled with a -4 penalty. The player rolls a 9 -4 which is reduced to a 5. Add the 11 from his Trait and Talents and the total is 16. The test is Failed, but not badly—only 1 Failure. The player loses 1 Courage point and suffers the lowest of three Consequences of the Peril—in this case, exhaustion and a temporary -1 to all actions involving Hroä for the next hour. The character can attempt to cross again, but now has 3 Courage and would have a -5 penalty and his Hroä down a point to 5 as well.
Assume the river crossing is much less of a challenge, carrying a Peril rating of 3. The character has 4 Courage and will have a +1 to the Test. He rolls a 7 +1 for an 8. With a Threat of only 3, the Test is considered Routine and only a 9 is needed for Success. Add 11for Trait and Talents and his score is 18. The character passes with 4 Successes. 3 Successes reduces the Peril to 0, so the river is crossed. 1 Success is turned into a point of Courage, raising his total to 5.
Now lets go back to the original situation with the Peril of 8. The character rests for an hour to regain his lost point due to exhaustion and takes another hour summoning back his point of Courage. So two hours later he is ready to try again. The original situation still applies and he will be at -4. However, he can choose to spend some or all of his Courage to offset the penalty. He spends 3 points and the penalty is reduced to -1 (his Courage is now 1). He rolls doubles (fours) and gets to roll again getting a 5 (8+5-1=12). The 12 is added to 11 for a total of 23. This is 2 Successes. The Peril is reduced to 6. His Courage however is only a 1, so he will now have a -5 penalty—but the Test has become somewhat easier (a 15 is needed to pass). He rolls doubles again (threes) and rerolls a 6 (6+6-5=7). His 11 is totaled to 7 for a score of 18, gaining another 2 Successes. The Peril is further reduced to 4. He will have a -3 penalty, but the Test has become easier once again (a 12 is needed to pass). Player rolls a 4 (4-3=1) and adds 11 for a total of 12. He passes with 1 Success. The Peril is now a 3 (9 is needed to pass). The character is making slow, but steady progress across the dangerous river. With a penalty of -2, rolls a 10 (10-2=8) and adds 11 for a score of 19. This is 4 Successes and the Peril is reduced to 0. He makes it across ! He also gets 1 point of Courage back for the extra Success bringing him up to 2, he will regain his other two points back as time passes.
Thoughts?
On 1/10/2009 at 9:29pm, Noon wrote:
RE: Re: Courage as Currency
Adding to the latter part of Philip's question, what is the courage for?
I mean, courage to cross a river? Why, if you didn't need to or there was nothing the matter? Especially if you could just walk normally downstream and find a bridge or a shallow part.
Courage supports some sort of cause or - well, it doesn't appear to be courage as I understand it, anyway. Just risk taking.
Will this tie into characters having causes?