Topic: Survival, NPC's, Charts, and Keywords - A possible horror genre game?
Started by: zmobie
Started on: 1/23/2009
Board: First Thoughts
On 1/23/2009 at 11:14pm, zmobie wrote:
Survival, NPC's, Charts, and Keywords - A possible horror genre game?
I had a conversation with a good friend awhile back about a game idea, and I'd like to run it by the forge and see what you guys thought about it.
We were talking about zombie movies, post apocalyptic movies, and pretty much any horror movie in general where there is a large number of dead characters. The problem with running a game like this is that you don't want players to drop dead and be irrelevant throughout the rest of the night. You don't want to stat up a bunch of NPC's to help the player characters for one session before they kick the bucket. You don't want to invest your creative energy into a back story for these NPC's just so you can kill them off and get some kind of reaction out of the players.
Our solution was that the NPC's should be built in resources in the mechanics of the game. This is a little hard for me to explain, so let me know if I do a crappy job of it.
Take for instance your basic zombie movie. You have a small group of survivors trying to live to see the next day, or maybe they are trying to fight their way to safety. The group of survivors is usually a pretty varied group. You've got ex marines, soccer moms, business men, maybe even children or the elderly. Each person brings their own pluses and minuses to the group. The ex marine has the obvious benefit of being able to handle combat situations, but maybe he is a hot head. The soccer mom may know her way around the city really well, and has real leadership abilities during a crisis. The elderly person might slow the group down, but they were a medic in the war.
The way this could work in a game is that the players actually manage a group of NPC's rather than playing as one character of their own. They get to choose what the group does, and each player gets to 'control' the actions of at least one (maybe more) of the characters in the scenario, but the interesting part is that many of the actions that the group takes will be pre-determined by that characters keywords and type.
For example, a group has to make it to the top of the next building where they will be able to signal for help somehow. As the group crosses the street silently, all the players decide to move as fast as they can to the next building. The problem is that there is someone in your group with a slow movement and they start to lag behind. Another NPC in the group has a personality trait that won't let him leave anyone behind, so when the party gets far enough away, he actually goes back with the slow NPC.
At this point, zombies see the group and move between the two NPC's that got left behind and attack the two stragglers. Another NPC in your party has a 'martyr' personality trait, and jumps into danger whenever another NPC is going to die.
Maybe after that you find a new NPC survivor in a building, but according to some kind of NPC interaction guide, he doesn't get along with one of your current party members. Another NPC has to keep using leadership points to keep them from killing each other.
The way I see an actual game session running is the Players making the important decisions, and providing the important interactions and narrative, but the mechanics of the game keep throwing monkey wrenches in their plans. The Players would have some way of preventing automatic interactions, but it would be a limited resource. Maybe it is some kind of leadership stat on the players side, or a morale stat on the NPC side. For instance, if you keep a mother from saving her child so that she will actually survive the encounter, your whole group is going to be extremely demoralized by watching that kind of event.
What do you think?
On 1/24/2009 at 12:07am, Vulpinoid wrote:
Re: Survival, NPC's, Charts, and Keywords - A possible horror genre game?
The first thing that come to mind when I read this is a simple idea.
Each player starts with a group of survivors defined by a pair of keywords. (I considered the notion of having each character defined by a single keyword, but I fear that this may make character initial characters a bit flat). Every time one of your survivors is killed, add a new keyword to one of your remaining survivors.
As an addition to this, all keywords have a positive and negative associated with them.
As described, examples could include...
Elderly [positive = wealth of experience, negative = slow]
Wheelchair-bound [positive = zombies attack them last because their flesh is less healthy, negative = poor maneuverability]
Marine [positive = combat tactics, negative = never leave a man behind]
You'd have obvious things that would have to be purchased at the start of the game (such as "wheelchair-bound"), then you'd have more hidden things that could be revealed in crisis situations. All characters could even be forced to start with something obvious and something hidden.
The only way that a character gains access to the benefits of their keyword is by engaging in a scene where their negative aspect occurs.
The marine only gets a bonus to combat tactics after they go back to rescue another character. When asked why he did this, the marine explains a bit of their personal history and from this point forward gains access to the associated bonus.
Option 1: You might allow them to gain a minor die roll bonus in situations associated with the bonus. If they play out the negative side of their weakness a few times this bonus might get slightly bigger each time.
Option 2: Every time they play up their negative aspect, they gain a free reroll (or maybe even a single automatic success) when performing something linked to their positive aspect. Every time they want to get that bonus again, they'll have to bring the negative side back into play somehow.
Gradually over the course of the game, you'd learn more about the surviving characters as they build up more of these traits.
Just some ideas...
V
On 1/26/2009 at 3:57pm, John Blaz wrote:
RE: Re: Survival, NPC's, Charts, and Keywords - A possible horror genre game?
Sounds like something I'd have a blast playing. For it to work as intended, the mechanics would probably need to be pretty straightforward/ simple. Here's something off the top of my head:
Core mechanic is 1d10. Success equals a roll of 8 or higher. Each keyword has a bonus or penalty associated with it. So "Leaves No Man Behind" could give a -2 to the roll to resist leaving no man behind. And "Ex-Military" could give a +2 to all combat actions.
I think it would be well balanced as long as the modifiers stayed the same across keywords. So all negative mods are -2 and all positives are +2.
How would a bunch of players manage one group of characters? Or would each player get a few? Or am I completely missing the idea here lol?
On 1/26/2009 at 6:24pm, zmobie wrote:
RE: Re: Survival, NPC's, Charts, and Keywords - A possible horror genre game?
Vulpinoid wrote:
Each player starts with a group of survivors defined by a pair of keywords. (I considered the notion of having each character defined by a single keyword, but I fear that this may make character initial characters a bit flat). Every time one of your survivors is killed, add a new keyword to one of your remaining survivors.
I like the revealed keyword idea. The game master could create them or there could just be a random table or something that determines what sort of character traits are underlying within your party. I think there could also be limit breaks for each keyword that would allow for more grand effects. For instance a woman who's child is attacked could take out dozens of zombies with a prada handbag full of bricks because she has the protective keyword.
Vulpinoid wrote:
The only way that a character gains access to the benefits of their keyword is by engaging in a scene where their negative aspect occurs.
The marine only gets a bonus to combat tactics after they go back to rescue another character. When asked why he did this, the marine explains a bit of their personal history and from this point forward gains access to the associated bonus.
Option 1: You might allow them to gain a minor die roll bonus in situations associated with the bonus. If they play out the negative side of their weakness a few times this bonus might get slightly bigger each time.
Option 2: Every time they play up their negative aspect, they gain a free reroll (or maybe even a single automatic success) when performing something linked to their positive aspect. Every time they want to get that bonus again, they'll have to bring the negative side back into play somehow.
Gradually over the course of the game, you'd learn more about the surviving characters as they build up more of these traits.
Just some ideas...
V
I like the idea of the negative and positive of each trait being linked somehow. You can't have one without the other. The more you put characters in danger, the more they are able to pull out of it. There needs to be a limit though and maybe that is where the 'limit break' comes in. Some grand effect they have on the game that is a culmination of all of their previous effects.
So maybe a character could gain a bonus 3 times because they acted out their negative trait, but that is as big as it gets. At that point though, they are able to do their limit break and then the bonus cycle starts over, if they survive.
John wrote:
Sounds like something I'd have a blast playing. For it to work as intended, the mechanics would probably need to be pretty straightforward/ simple. Here's something off the top of my head:
Core mechanic is 1d10. Success equals a roll of 8 or higher. Each keyword has a bonus or penalty associated with it. So "Leaves No Man Behind" could give a -2 to the roll to resist leaving no man behind. And "Ex-Military" could give a +2 to all combat actions.
I agree that it needs to be straight forward, but in the tradition of survival horror, i think it would be better if it played more like a resource mechanic instead of die rolls. You have a certain number of points with which you can make characters do things. It costs a lot of points to make them do something they don't want to do, it barely costs any points to let them do what they would do anyway.
If the characters go off and act out their negative effects, it will result in bonuses for them later, and maybe more points for you to manage the group with.
John wrote:
How would a bunch of players manage one group of characters? Or would each player get a few? Or am I completely missing the idea here lol?
Thats another thing i'm having problems with too. I think that as players, you play one character each. The body count is going to be high though, so the character you are playing now might not be the one you end the game with. You may not be able to prevent your character from running off on his own, so if he dies, you then have to help manage the whole group until you find another survivor. I don't think this is a horribly elegant solution though, and this game might work better as a 2 player game, with one player controlling the group and another player controlling the scenario. I'd like for this game to work in a traditional rpg group though, so if you have any suggestions they would be well received.
The game as it stands seems like it would play like a strategy game where your 'units' are people and their 'abilities' are their character flaws, and various things that make them human.
On 1/27/2009 at 1:07am, whiteknife wrote:
RE: Re: Survival, NPC's, Charts, and Keywords - A possible horror genre game?
John wrote:
How would a bunch of players manage one group of characters? Or would each player get a few? Or am I completely missing the idea here lol?
I believe classroom death match (http://www.atarashigames.com/ghostshark/Classroom%20Deathmatch%20retail%201.pdf) had a something like this, where you played one character, but then they were liable to die off then you'd play another one.
On 1/27/2009 at 3:10am, John Blaz wrote:
RE: Re: Survival, NPC's, Charts, and Keywords - A possible horror genre game?
zmobie wrote:
The game as it stands seems like it would play like a strategy game where your 'units' are people and their 'abilities' are their character flaws, and various things that make them human.
I was thinking about this idea alot today at work, and that's about what I came up with. However, I also had some other interesting thoughts.
1) Players each control one character to start, and as NPCs are introduced into the game, there is some sort of mechanic or someway to distribute control of NPCs evenly amongst players
2) That limit break idea, but just include a Stress meter instead. Certain situations stress the characters out more, characters can differ in the amount of stress they gain at a time (so a hardened marine gains 1d4 Stress while a nervous housewife gets 1d12)
3) Because of the presumably large amount of characters, condense stats into Physical, Mental, and Courage. These would be rated on a - to + basis, so the average human will have a 0 in all stats (no modifier) while an athlete might have +2 Phyiscal.
4) A simple core mechanic: For example the idea I mentioned before of 1d10, modified by Physical/ Mental (if applicable) and any special talents. Success is 8 or higher. Also, there are no skills for the characters, instead they have Talents which are fields they are above-average in. So a mechanic might have Engineering +2 while somebody on the highschool swim team has +2 Athletics. Then a character's stat block would simply show their 3 stats, their 2 (or how ever many) personality traits, and their Talent.
5) Story Points for the players to dictate what happens in the game. Because it's hard for people to agree on some things, I had a thought where if a player wants something to happen, or they want to change the direction of the story, they can gamble some of their Story Points. Basically, everybody would stake some Story Points on an outcome, and whichever outcome has the most points becomes true. Everybody who staked Story Points on the losing outcome lose the points they staked. All SP bets are hidden until the "big reveal".
If you can't tell, I really like this idea you came up with, but is this something you're planning to publish, or is going to be free? I would love to steal this but not if you intend to publish.
On 1/27/2009 at 3:15am, John Blaz wrote:
RE: Re: Survival, NPC's, Charts, and Keywords - A possible horror genre game?
More on the Stress meter I forgot to add:
When a certain amount of Stress points accumulate, the characters react in different ways based on their personalities, so the Marine might violently lash out and go on a murderous rampage (not necessarily a bad thing when dealing with the undead), while the housewife feints or cowers in a corner.
Stress causers: lack of food or supplies, witnessing a gruesome scene
Stress relievers: finding food or supplies, finding weapons, seeing that rescue is near, hearing a voice on the otherwise silent radio
On 1/27/2009 at 4:22pm, zmobie wrote:
RE: Re: Survival, NPC's, Charts, and Keywords - A possible horror genre game?
John wrote:
1) Players each control one character to start, and as NPCs are introduced into the game, there is some sort of mechanic or someway to distribute control of NPCs evenly amongst players
This makes sense. I think the mechanic should be some sort of bidding mechanic where you bid resources for control, but the resources you are bidding are the points you use to establish control of the characters you are controlling. That way, if you go all in to get control of a character, you are going to have a big unmanageable herd of people who are mostly doing what they want.
There could be a base cost as well, for instance if you find a couple of survivors, they wont join you without you spending 2 points. They might be doing ok on their own and not trust you. On the other hand, if you bring an injured and dying character who just might turn into a zombie in 5 minutes, you get a whole bunch of points.
If player 1 wants to take control of the 2 new people, he could say "i want control of them, I will pay 3" or both players could agree to pay 1 each and take control of each one. This will encourage team work and fairness between the parties you control, and if the players are fighting over characters, they will lose points to mindless bickering and lose control of their team. Their team will then start acting on their own and become a huge mess.
I'll comment on more stuff later. Keep the good ideas coming!
On 1/28/2009 at 12:42am, zmobie wrote:
RE: Re: Survival, NPC's, Charts, and Keywords - A possible horror genre game?
John wrote:
2) That limit break idea, but just include a Stress meter instead. Certain situations stress the characters out more, characters can differ in the amount of stress they gain at a time (so a hardened marine gains 1d4 Stress while a nervous housewife gets 1d12)
I also like this idea a lot, but tracking the individual stress for each character would be kind of a mess, especially if the party started to get big. I think having an overall group stress would be easier to track. Then, you can have stress modifiers for each character in the party, +1, -2 etc. They can even be linked to character traits (Confident +2: to stress checks ; Leadership: spend points to give all party members +1 on a stress check). Then, if the party fails a stress check, whoever has the lowest modifier would do something stupid.
This idea still needs work, but i think its a great start.
John wrote:
3) Because of the presumably large amount of characters, condense stats into Physical, Mental, and Courage. These would be rated on a - to + basis, so
the average human will have a 0 in all stats (no modifier) while an athlete might have +2 Phyiscal.
Again, i agree that stats have to be condensed down as much as possible, but if the base stat is 0 why even list it on the sheet? We could just list each character's personality triats. Only list Physical if they are above average strength, only list mental if they are above average intelligence. We wouldn't even need to be so broad in our descriptions. One guy could be "Marathon Runner" and another guy could be "Nuclear Physicists" That way they can have their bonus to whatever mental or physical skill they need to have, but the flavor is a little more descriptive and the abilities could be more pointed.
So a character could be
Marathon Runner: +# to Stamina or Strength checks and +2 to movement.
Nuclear Physicist: +# to Technical or Intelligence checks and __________
I guess this implies that there will be certain categories of skill checks which must be overcome... but thats another thing i have to think about
John wrote:
4) A simple core mechanic: For example the idea I mentioned before of 1d10, modified by Physical/ Mental (if applicable) and any special talents. Success is 8 or higher. Also, there are no skills for the characters, instead they have Talents which are fields they are above-average in. So a mechanic might have Engineering +2 while somebody on the highschool swim team has +2 Athletics. Then a character's stat block would simply show their 3 stats, their 2 (or how ever many) personality traits, and their Talent.
I guess my idea doesn't differ much from yours then according to this. The main difference I see is a larger pool of skill checks, and maybe just eliminating the 3 base stats. I don't know though, my mind is easily changed. My main reason for this is that there are going to be a bunch of people in your group, and they need to be challenged as a group. They should work together to overcome obstacles. You should want to have a big group working together because it is the only way to survive.
I see most skill checks being a group effort. With 2 or more of the characters contributing to the same skill check. Every character with combat skills rolls one die and adds all their combat together to smash in some zombie skulls. Every character with strength works together to lift the heavy garage door. Every character in your group with a negative to stress rolls contributes negatively to your stress rolls.
John wrote:
5) Story Points for the players to dictate what happens in the game. Because it's hard for people to agree on some things, I had a thought where if a player wants something to happen, or they want to change the direction of the story, they can gamble some of their Story Points. Basically, everybody would stake some Story Points on an outcome, and whichever outcome has the most points becomes true. Everybody who staked Story Points on the losing outcome lose the points they staked. All SP bets are hidden until the "big reveal".
I see we are both trending toward having some kind of wager system involved in the controlling of the party and story elements. That is good. It seems to just make sense for this kind of game.
John wrote:
If you can't tell, I really like this idea you came up with, but is this something you're planning to publish, or is going to be free? I would love to steal this but not if you intend to publish.
I would be down for working on this with you if you wanted to. We seem to have the same design ideas, and I always work better with a partner. PM me and we can exchange emails or something.
John wrote:
More on the Stress meter I forgot to add:
When a certain amount of Stress points accumulate, the characters react in different ways based on their personalities, so the Marine might violently lash out and go on a murderous rampage (not necessarily a bad thing when dealing with the undead), while the housewife feints or cowers in a corner.
Stress causers: lack of food or supplies, witnessing a gruesome scene
Stress relievers: finding food or supplies, finding weapons, seeing that rescue is near, hearing a voice on the otherwise silent radio
Again, we seem to be on the same page here. I think a good listing of events and their relative stress ratings would be a good addition to the Game Master portion of the game.