Sorry to bombard you all with posts, but I am having difficulty coming up with additional crunch for my Werewolf: the Forsaken game which I am running with Solar System and I am after ideas on mechanics on how to develop territory.

For those of you not familiar with the fiction of Werewolf, the premise is that the PCs are a pack of werewolves who have carved out a piece of territory and defend it from threats, usually supernatural. The pack often doesn't legally own property in their territory, and don't usually seek to change the physical landscape in major ways.

Instead, the pack looks after the spiritual reflection of their territory, known as the Shadow realm, and deals with the local spirits who inhabit the territory. The spirits are not ghosts, but spirits of things in the territory - cars, plants, trees, buildings, emotions and even ideas. Usually, a spirit only comes into being if a lot of effort is invested into something, so not every tree in the physical world will have a spiritual reflection. However, once a spirit comes into being it is largely autonomous from its physical counterpart.

Werewolf packs spend a lot of time interacting with spirits, usually in conflict. Werewolves, being half-spirits themselves, have the ability to enter the Shadow through rare gateways know as loci. Over time, packs can also influence and develop the spiritual side of their territory, changing the spiritual ambience to suit them better.

So that's the fiction. What I want to do is design mechanics that handle developing the Shadow of a pack's territory on a large scale. I've looked at the Season mechanics in Houses of the Blooded and also the Company mechanics in Reign, which has given me a few ideas, but I would like to know if there is anything I could use with the Solar System that might assist me. I was thinking of dividing the territory into distinct locations, each being a "character", but I am not sure how this would work.

Any suggestions?

Have you looked into the Qek knotwork mechanics? Something like that might be interesting, as they deal with a similar notion of spiritual landscape. Under those mechanics you divide the territory into a number of spiritually significant "knots" or points, which are then known to varying degrees by the individual shamans. Each knot is then a Secret, and you can assign mechanical benefits to knowing each terrain bit. Under those rules it would also be easy to make each "knot" a character (or "roho", a disembodied spirit, to use the Qek terminology) if you wanted to.

Both Reign and HoB are fine sources for ideas, although Solar System tends to thrive in a somewhat more dramatic cut - usually we don't track large-scale developments mechanically so much as just state that these developments have taken place and then find out how this impacts the individuals in the story-verse. Thus we usually have Secrets that describe how characters stand in relation to the world, but most of the time the rules for gaining and losing these Secrets are relatively simple and rely on the conflict resolution system.

C75,
  Well, usually, with white wolf ips (I will admit I am not totally familiar with werewolf in particular) there are multiple tribes. So, I think a lot of crunch can ceom from describing how one tribe is different from the other. So, if you used that as a jumping off point, you can get a ton of mileage. So, for instance the Lunars in Exalted have different castes. Full Moon, half moon, etc. So, if I were to try and differentiate them, I would so something like this:
Key of the Full Moon General
1 xp for leading your followers
2 xp for leading them into a dangerous situation
5 xp when they save you from a dangerous situation

Secret of the Full Moon General
You can spend more than one pool on an ability check, if that abilty check is being used to help your followers

  I know Werewolf is totally different, but I think this is a good example of how you can use keys and secrets to really distinguish one tribe from the other, right?

I would think traits about the Shadow nature of the territory would be of use. Things like regardless of how it looks now, it has many ancient spirits from the previous centuries, so perhaps many tree spirits in what is now a town. Likweise, just having many spirits vs few would be of note, as would having conflicting spirits, for instance the tree spirits from a century ago and their interactions with the spirits of travel and cars and concrete from the highway than now goes through the area.

Spun the right way, there could be Secrets to handling the situation, and larger or smaller consequences to various conflicts.

dindenver wrote: Well, usually, with white wolf ips (I will admit I am not totally familiar with werewolf in particular) there are multiple tribes. So, I think a lot of crunch can ceom from describing how one tribe is different from the other. So, if you used that as a jumping off point, you can get a ton of mileage.

chance.thirteen wrote: I would think traits about the Shadow nature of the territory would be of use. Things like regardless of how it looks now, it has many ancient spirits from the previous centuries, so perhaps many tree spirits in what is now a town.

C75,
  I think the best way to do it would be to set up the spirits of the area and assign a difficulty level to each.
  If they are actively opposed to the werewolves' goals, give them pool, abilities and secrets. For others, set a a minimum Effect to change them.

  So, maybe a Wyrm infected spirit might have a "Spirit" pool of 5, an ability of "Spirit Charms" of 3 and a couple of secrets. But the Spirit of a playground might be tainted by recent activities of drug dealers and might need an Effect of 5 to turn around.

  That's what I would do. although Eero's knots might work, I haven't tried them before though, so I don't know either way.

  Either way, good luck with your game man.

Eero wrote: Have you looked into the Qek knotwork mechanics?

dindenver wrote: I think the best way to do it would be to set up the spirits of the area and assign a difficulty level to each.
If they are actively opposed to the werewolves' goals, give them pool, abilities and secrets. For others, set a a minimum Effect to change them.

C75,
  OK, that makes sense, but maybe you are over-thinking it?
  The way I see it, if they win an ability check, they beat down the spirit, temporarily. But if they win an Extended Conflict, the spirit is booted from the territory and the spirit energy of the territory is improved.

  I guess I took the advice to make the stakes of a roll be about what you are fighting for literally. So, in my games, rarely is an Ability check about success as much as it is about how the world is different after the attempt. Because of that I have been able to have players roll for stakes such as, "other factions will think twice before going against us." I think if you brought that logic to your werewolf game, it might fit the bill.

  But on a more direct answer to your question, what if you used the Knot mechanics, but changed what a knot meant? Like each knot could be a spirit in their territory. Gaining the knot would represent the Werewolves' triumph over that spirit. Like maybe it is just dematerialized, but more than that, it is actively avoiding the pack? So, you could have a knot progression:
1) Finding the spirit or learning that it exists
2) Confronting the spirit
3) Exorcism
  And the mechanics could be something like:
1) SG lets the players in on the gag. The spirit of the local playground has been turned ugly ever since that drive by shooting
2) Players investigate, culminating in ability checks
3) Characters buy a secret related to that knot And then perform the actrs that banish the spirit permanently.
  I don't know, its just a loose framework, but it might be a good jumping off point for you...

Hi,
maybe you can borrow a page out of REIGN's pages and look at that system's Company rules.

dindenver wrote:   The way I see it, if they win an ability check, they beat down the spirit, temporarily. But if they win an Extended Conflict, the spirit is booted from the territory and the spirit energy of the territory is improved.

oliof wrote:
Hi,
maybe you can borrow a page out of REIGN's pages and look at that system's Company rules.

Just a thought, but have you thought of letting players buy secrets for the pack? If you make its cost the standard increment*no. of players, then it makes no difference, but it seems to fit the fiction a little more. On the other hand you could make it cheaper, but I'm not sure whether you want to be encouraging that. It also de-clutters the sheets a bit, if you put some of the keys you were interested in as general werewolf things onto the pack sheet.

The same record that holds the locations you own could be the one for both the pack and your territory, underlining that it has a persistent character of it's own.

I have considered allowing PCs buy Secrets for the pack and then keeping track of them on a separate "Pack Sheet" or something. The standard cost seems fair, since every member of the pack can use the Secret.

Likewise, keeping an territorial Secrets on the Pack Sheet seems logical. I wouldn't put general werewolf Keys on the Pack Sheet because those things are individual to the specific PC, even if they all have the same kind of Keys. At the moment, every PC has a Werewolf Pack Key, which looks like this:

Werewolf Pack (Name of Pack): Your pack is an essential part of your existence as a werewolf.
1 XP: Share a scene with your pack.
2 XP: Challenge another in your pack.
5 XP: Make a sacrifice for your pack.
BuyOff: Leave the pack.

The only difficulty I can see with this approach is what happens if one or more of the PCs leave the pack. Do the pack Secrets still work or are they all bought off? My approach is that as long as the pack still exists (has at least two werewolf PCs), the pack Secrets still work for the remaining members and the PC(s) that leave(s) the pack get their XP back.

My first reaction to that sort of set-up would be to allow the fiction and conflict system to resolve the integrity of the pack. An important member leaves? Let the others roleplay their reactions to it and perhaps have the leader roll a simple leadership check to see if the pack stays together or loses its integrity. The same for if somebody dies or if there's a challenge for dominance or such; just have leadership checks and put the pack integrity up as stakes. Then every player gets to decide how much they care about preserving the pack.

Also consider having the experience kickback from leaving the pack be contingent on the terms of the breakage - I'd probably have it be that the pack leader decides whether anybody leaving the pack gets their xp back or not. Could be interesting, and would make for some pressure to make sure that the leaving happens on good terms.

Don't let this derail the discussion at hand, but:

Under my reading of The Solar System the Eero Edition (that's right,  TSS EE), in general, the advice given was that lost Secrets should be up for Advance refunds unless the fiction really suggests otherwise and the players agree? And above, Eero has one suggestion of how to link that more tightly to the fiction and the tension of the decisions around breaking up or leaving a pack.

So, as I understand it, it wouldn't be deeply at odds with TSS if my group decided that all the Pack secrets aren't lost just deactivated, save the first one about Pack membership. That IS lost to represent the loss of the integrity and teamwork of a given group, and rebuying the Secret with a new pack name represents reconstructing such trust and familiarity.

That seems good to me!

Eero wrote:
My first reaction to that sort of set-up would be to allow the fiction and conflict system to resolve the integrity of the pack. An important member leaves? Let the others roleplay their reactions to it and perhaps have the leader roll a simple leadership check to see if the pack stays together or loses its integrity. The same for if somebody dies or if there's a challenge for dominance or such; just have leadership checks and put the pack integrity up as stakes. Then every player gets to decide how much they care about preserving the pack.

Eero wrote: Also consider having the experience kickback from leaving the pack be contingent on the terms of the breakage - I'd probably have it be that the pack leader decides whether anybody leaving the pack gets their xp back or not. Could be interesting, and would make for some pressure to make sure that the leaving happens on good terms.

chance.thirteen wrote: So, as I understand it, it wouldn't be deeply at odds with TSS if my group decided that all the Pack secrets aren't lost just deactivated, save the first one about Pack membership. That IS lost to represent the loss of the integrity and teamwork of a given group, and rebuying the Secret with a new pack name represents reconstructing such trust and familiarity.

All of that sounds good to me. You could handle pack integrity as an Effect the alpha is responsible for: he makes a check to create it, writes it down (something like "Our pack is strong 3/I" or just "pack integrity for pack X 3/I") and may spend it for bonus dice in critical situations to order the others around. He could also renew it with new checks. Seems workable.

A slightly more mechanized take would be to make pack leadership a Secret:

Secret of Alpha
This character is the leader of the pack. Another character may challenge the position to strip away the rank, in which case you gain back the Advance. As long as the rank stays, the character may turn his own bonus dice into penalty dice for his opponents in any domination/leadership conflicts within the pack. To do so, the character has to invoke his position. Cost: 1 Vigor per scene to invoke position.

That might work to formalize what it means to be the alpha - that's useful if the players are not very much into the spirit of being wolf-people and thus instinctively downplay the importance of wolf-pack domination mechanics. That sort of loose Secret still allows the characters to be as liberal-democratic as they want, but it also leaves the current leader the interesting option of abusing the powers he gains from the traditional role.

(Note: in case it's unclear, getting to use your bonus dice as penalty dice against others is powerful because of the way dice mechanics work on the game. Try it out.)

You could, if you want, use even more structure:

Secret of Beta
A character who challenges the pack Alpha may get this Secret if he wants and the Alpha allows him to. If the Alpha is later dislodged, lose the Secret and gain an Advance. The Beta is a high-ranking second-in-command for the alpha wolf, which gains him some prestige: the character gains a free bonus die to all social conflicts within the pack. Note that the current Alpha may well have this Secret as well, should he have the respect of the pack.

Secret of Omega
A character on the bottom of the pack hierarchy may take this Secret. He cannot initiate social conflicts within the pack, but he is not bound by the results of such, either: going against the will of the pack Alpha incurs just one penalty die for the Omega, even if he lost a social conflict that enforced the will.

Thanks Eero!

I had a feeling Secrets would be the way to go and I am impressed with the ones you came up with. They are pretty much what I have been looking for. Awesome! I'm keen to try them out with my players as we have often wondered how the whole "wolf-pack" mechanic works in Werewolf but the original system never went beyond "that is up to the [GM]".

As usual, I have a few questions/suggestions:

• In regards to the establishing/challenging the alpha conflict, I am thinking of standardising this as a Primal Urge [Vigour] check. Primal Urge is an innate Ability that all werewolves possess and it relates to a werewolf's connection with his "wolf-side". It is commonly used for shapeshifting and tracking by scent and other such werewolf behaviour. Since establishing/challenging an alpha is a wolf thing, it makes sense that this is the Ability required, rather than an eloquent speech (Persuasion [Instinct]), bullying (Intimidation [Instinct]), or fighting (Brawl [Vigour]). Werewolves would be able to purchase Secrets that allow them to support a Primal Urge check for the alpha role with these Abilities, though. Of course, a Primal Urge conflict could be extended into a fight, which is common in Werewolf fiction.
Note that this process is only for establishing or attempting to usurp the alpha position in a pack. Packmates are quite free to argue/fight amongst themselves using whatever Abilities they wish, and the alpha can use the Secret of Alpha if she so wishes in such cases.
• In regards to the Secret of the Omega, you mention that the Omega only suffers a penalty die if he goes against the will of the pack, even if he loses a social conflict that enforced the will. Does this mean that any other pack member may suffer penalty dice if goes against the will of the pack? Is this coming from the Secret of the Alpha or somewhere else?

The Omega thing is that normally a character would be obligated to follow along with a viewpoint upon which he had been convinced. For example, if a character were planning to go and do something stupid, but the Alpha ordered him to stand down, he'd have to do so - at least until the next scene. The Omega, though, he's half-outsider anyway - he can still do it, the worst others can do to him without actual physical restraint is a penalty die for bad conscience. His social tie to the pack is so thin that he can ignore the rest of the pack when it suits him.

Using Primal Urge (V) seems fine as the primary wolfy social ability to me.

Cool. I really like the Omega concept!

So the omega doesn't suffer any Instinct Harm beyond Minor (one penalty die) from an Instinct conflict where the alpha orders him to do something? Or he doesn't suffer Instinct Harm at all, just a nominal penalty die?

Another question: can a conflict using Primal Urge (V) checks result in Instinct Harm rather than Vigour Harm? I'm thinking about the dominance conflict to determine an alpha here. I think Instinct Harm might be more appropriate than Vigour Harm, although the conflict might involve some physical scuffling between contestants (changing forms, snarling, grappling, etc).

I allow Harm to be different in type than the Ability that caused it - the Ability is just the default, the SG can change it to whatever makes sense in the fiction.

As for Harm for Omegas - I hadn't thought that the Secret would affect the Harm mechanics, but perhaps it should. It makes sense for the Omega to be partially invulnerable to social Harm. If it seems right to you, go ahead and try it. The way to phrase it wouldn't be that the character is immune to Harm, though, but rather that he doesn't ever apply more than one penalty die to social situations, no matter how much Harm he's taken. Giving immunity from Harm screws up game balance.

Thanks Eero, that clears a lot of things up for me.

Yep, I am with you on the omega only suffering a maximum of one penalty die from any Instinct Harm incurred. The only thing I would add is that the Instinct Harm has to be inflicted by his packmates (including the alpha). He would take Instinct Harm with full penalties from anyone outside his pack, unless the Harm somehow tied in with his omega role in the pack (outside werewolves taunting him about his lowly status in the pack, for example).