I've been planning to release Of Beasts and Men in print form since the beginning, but I've been wondering if an initial release on PDF wouldn't be wiser...a lot depends on how much the whole affair is going to cost me, but I was looking for opinions from two sources:

1) Customers...would you buy it as a PDF? As Print? Which would you prefer, knowing that the PDF will cost half, but will be a beast of a download (and might be delived on CD instead)

2) PDF/Print indie publishers (Ron and Jason)...what kind of response have your PDF supplements had in comparison to your Printed core rules/supplement books?

Jake

Hmmm, I'd say this purely from my personal perspective as a customer.

Yes, I would buy it as a pdf download/CD. but I would be gravely disappointed (and doubly so for Flower of Battle which I want even more) if it didn't eventually see print.

So if this is as a "lets do a PDF first and use the proceeds to help pay for the eventual print run"...yeah, I could get behind that. If this is "lets do it as a PDF and it will probably never be an actual book"...that would disappoint me. I'd likely still buy it as a PDF...but it would disappoint me...if only because RoS is such a big heavy kick ass imposing book to have on my shelf, that it deserves equally big heavy kick ass neighbors.

I would buy print only.

I have brought pdfs and I think they can be a good format especially for small releases about specific topics.

For core releases (for TROS I see that as the rulebook, magic, combat and bestiary) I would like to see them all in print.

Plus:

- print can sit on a shelf and entice new players, important for new games.

- if you have it in print you can normally easily cater for pdfs but its doesn't work the other way round.

The biggest drawback of print supplements? Recouping the costs. Your first supplement, historically, will sell to about 20% of your existing audience. That number decreases per supplement. This is based on what I've gleaned from industry lists and talking with larger publishers. If someone else has conflicting data or first-hand experience, please correct me.

Now, let's say you print and sell 3,000 copies of your core book. You can then expect to sell about 600 of your first supplement. Now, anyone who's looked over print quotes knows that you just can't print 600 (or a 1000) at a decent price point.

Of course, supplements are designed to stimulate interest and "support" the game. If you think Of Beasts and Men will draw new interest to TROS or is just so damn good that it will appeal (and sell) to far more than 20% of your existing audience, I certainly can't dispute it.

Another point to consider is that it's hard enough to get indie games on store shelves much less their supplements (though we're working on it!). It can't stimulate sales of your core book if the only people who know about it are looking specifically for it.

The bottom line is, can you afford to print the supplement and NEVER BACK A SINGLE DIME BACK? If so, print it. If not, tread cautiously, Jake.

This isn't to say you shouldn't print. That is ultimately up to you.

As far as my own PDF sales, they're nothing compared to my main book sales. I certainly appreciate them, and they're a great avenue for getting small supplements out to your audience but don't expect a deluge.

Of Beasts and Men, as a .pdf, would make me groan. Even if I didn't have to pay for it, I would hesitate.

The reason for this has nothing to do with the quality of .pdfs, or any such. It's a personal reason; I have a standard dial-up modem, and the Sorcery Revision took over an hour to download.. and that was on the third try, due to lost connections. Printing it out also took an ungodly amount of time, due to print buffer issues.

And this is on my mother's computer, which has easily twice the RAM and a notably better processor and printer.

Would I buy it? Probably. Would I much rather see it in print? Definitely.

If you have the money, print it.

I would like to see it printed, but as a contributor to the book and a book-lover, that should be pretty obvious.

As a customer, I haven't bought a pdf yet (even those that interest me, like the new Little Fears sourcebook or the Norca/SouthAmerica book for White Wolf's Trinity, which I would buy immediately if they were printed), and I don't know if I'll ever do. It's just a personal preference. I want a book. Stupid, eh?

As a fan of electronic media, I am all for the PDF format. Personally, I'd prefer it if nothing were ever printed again (give the damn trees a break!). But then, as has been pointed out, I'm weird, and probably do not represent a large demographic.

In any case, Jason points out the industry standard position, which is that supplements exist to support sales of the core book. But there is lots of evidence that this doesn't work at all. If I'm not mistaken, Ron has come out big against this model. I would agree, it doesn't make much sense. Have you ever been swayed into buying a product just because it has a lot of support on the shelf? How many sales do you suppose this really generates? Enough to make up the losses on the supplement that Jason assures you will occur? In any case, the PDF is support, just a theoretically less potent source of support. If you can make money on the PDF, but not on the print version, I'd say go PDF.

OTOH, there is the argument that Ralph has that says that proceeds from PDF sales can go to printing the book. This is a slower-starting proposition, but one that's certainly less risky. There's also the model Ron used with Sorcerer. Either of these represents a reasonable compromise, it seems to me. If you never make enough on PDF sales to support printing, then perhaps it would have been unwise to print in the first place. Such a tentative approach serves as marketing as you go.

Mike

Hello,

Couple things to say here.

1) Everyone would "prefer" a book. If you ask people what they prefer, that's what they'll tell you. It's not a very substantive question.

Sure, I'd like a row of TROS books on my shelf. Sure, I'd like that copy of my old white D&D box back (wherever it is). I'd like a couple of uninhibited 20-year-old babes in my bed tonight. I'd like a lot of things.

The question is, what is the best business practice for the best role-playing material you can provide.

2) (This is for Lance) For exceptionally wonderful supporters of the game, and if they happen not to have the bandwidth to handle the file size, I have been known to shell out the time and money to mail them a hard copy.

3) PDF sales cannot "count toward" the print cost. They exist on completely different scales. Print costs are comparatively huge and you have to go out-of-pocket to pay them, PDF sales or not. Please don't misperceive that I paid for the print cost of Sorcerer with the proceeds from PDF sales. There's a whole 'nother zero on the print-cost equation.

4) Supplement sales do *not* drive core book sales at the countertop level. Industry folks talk about "spikes" of core book sales when supplements are released; what they fail to mention is the pathetic absolute value of the baseline, such that a spike of nothing is still nothing.

Supplements are cost-ineffective to print. In theory, the presumed core book plus supplement sale is supposed to cover costs - in practice, they are a black hole of costs.

5) Buying habits of RPG customers do not reflect what they preach ("you need supplements, man!"). Releasing supplements because you think that will validate your "line" is a sure path to suicide. I cite *White Wolf* and *TSR* as major poster children for this point, and will back that up to anyone who wants to know. [Yes, boggled incomprehension from the crowd. Get in touch if you want.]

6) If you do go with PDF-first, print-later-maybe, keep strict records of your PDF customers and consider them to have pre-paid whatever the cost was. This is the fairest policy I could come up with and it seemed to work out very well.

Best,
Ron

Mike Holmes wrote: As a fan of electronic media, I am all for the PDF format. Personally, I'd prefer it if nothing were ever printed again (give the damn trees a break!).

Mike Holmes wrote: If you never make enough on PDF sales to support printing, then perhaps it would have been unwise to print in the first place.

I'm not interested in the bestiary. That said, if I was to impulse buy it, I'd be much more likely to do so if it was in print.

I'm more interested in the combat & magic expansions, but even then I'd prefer print.

Oh, and Mike, I printed out the revised sorcery section on single-sided paper. You'll need replant those trees. :-)

-Jeff

Jürgen Mayer wrote: I see your point, Mike, but the majority of PDFs used for gaming will be printed out (one-sided & often multiple times) and brought to the table. Not many trees saved there.

Mike Holmes wrote: In any case, Jason points out the industry standard position, which is that supplements exist to support sales of the core book. But there is lots of evidence that this doesn't work at all. If I'm not mistaken, Ron has come out big against this model. I would agree, it doesn't make much sense.

Well, for what it's worth... When I like a game, I will buy ALL of the corebooks. I may or may not pick up any specific sourcebooks and adventure books, but I make it a point to pick up the cores. As example, I own the entire corebook line for both 2nd and 3rd Ed. Shadowrun... And that's a hefty line.

If it comes out in .pdf with the possibility of print, I'll probably wait to see if it comes to print. If it comes out in .pdf with the intention that it will not go to print, I will probably buy the .pdf, so long as it is assured that I get the chance to DL it multiple times (as I will probably have to, to get it downloaded..). If it comes out in print, I will buy the print copy, regardless of whether or not I have already shelled out the cash on a .pdf copy, because a printed book is just so much cooler and more convenient. (I have the Revised Sorcery Chapter in a folder which takes up about as a much room as the core TRoS book...)

I have to say, I'll be *extremely* disapointed if the book were to only come out in PDF format.

Even at half the cost, you can't compare a nice book sitting on my RPG shelf with a collection of papers I have had to print out myself and bind together. In fact, when you add the cost of printing and binding etc, it ends up not being much cheaper for the consumer than it would have cost them to buy the printed book. It's still a lot cheaper for you, the publisher of course, but all you're really doing is passing that cost saving along as extra cost to the consumer and some, like me, would be (very) unhappy with that.

Bottom line? I would still buy it in PDF, because I have submitted material to it, but if I hadn't... well, I probably still would buy it to support you Jake, because I love your game, but I would honestly feel a little cheated.

As a side issue, do a search through the internet and you can find pretty much any of the "buy and download" PDF's from rpgnow for free; people who have downloaded them have turned around and offered them for download themselves, so you may well find that if you release your book as PDF you'll end up giving a lot of free copies away. It's a reprehensible practice, but hard to prevent. Along similar thoughts, you'll find that most gaming groups will print out PDF books for each member, so at MOST you only sell one copy per group, where as in book form that's not going to happen - two of the guys in my rpg group are already talking about buying the main rulebook when it comes out in general release.

Brian.

I agree completely Brian. I have to say I'm not a real hard core fan of PDF publishing. I think PDF publishing has a role, but its not the replacement of the printed game book (at least not yet). For me the role is in taking the hordes of home grown stuff that is out there and kicking it up a notch. By and large people will put more time and effort into playtesting and laying out a home brew that they plan on selling for $5 or $10 than they would for the same stuff offered for free as "notes on my game if your interested". Plus the income from a PDF can recover some or all of the cost of professional quality art.

I buy PDF games, I've bought quite a few. But what they basically are for me is better tested, better laid out, higher quality home brews. I'm willing to pay $5 or $10 or even $15 for a quality compilation of such a game. But for me that's not the same thing as a game that has heft and weight and a cover that doesn't come from kinkos or involve a 3 ring binder.

Jake Norwood wrote: I've been planning to release Of Beasts and Men in print form since the beginning, but I've been wondering if an initial release on PDF wouldn't be wiser...a lot depends on how much the whole affair is going to cost me, but I was looking for opinions from two sources:

1) Customers...would you buy it as a PDF? As Print? Which would you prefer, knowing that the PDF will cost half, but will be a beast of a download (and might be delived on CD instead)

2) PDF/Print indie publishers (Ron and Jason)...what kind of response have your PDF supplements had in comparison to your Printed core rules/supplement books?

Jake

I probably won't but a PDF version of the the Beastiary.

It would be great to get the game to market faster but the format is not usefull to me.

I don't own any portable computers and don't want the astle of printing and binding it.

Frankly since I am going to have to pay the print costs on it no matter what, I would rather pay up front and have a book.

I might buy something like "The Riddle of Gold" because it is not likely (IMO) to have a very broad market outside of hardcore collecters.

A Beastiary is a core book for most Fantasy games and as such will get a lot of use and wear and tear. That means if I printed the game I would have to print it twice.

Something like a Sorcerer mini supplement, or The Riddle of Gold won't see as much use, again IMO.

I'm in the same camp as a lot of you guys...I really don't like PDF's all that much unless they're under 50 pages and lightly illustrated...and the Bestiary is allready about 100 pages and is going to be heavily illustrated, and we're not done...

So print is the goal, but I also need to be realistic about what TROS is going to support. I have tremendous faith in TFOB from online "buzz" on this and other forums, but the bestiary is going to be costly (lots of art), and I need to cover my butt.

What about (and this is a question, not a suggestion) a Bestiary "subscription" or something of the like, where you got five beasties a month for a small...

ah, to hell with that.

;-D

Jake

Jake Norwood wrote: So print is the goal, but I also need to be realistic about what TROS is going to support. I have tremendous faith in TFOB from online "buzz" on this and other forums, but the bestiary is going to be costly (lots of art), and I need to cover my butt.

That's not a bad idea Brian. ALOT of wargame companies (GMT and Columbia especially) have an extensive preorder plan.

Both companies have an extensive list of games in various stages of completion (some 100% ready to produce), but they don't actually run them until they get a set number of preorders (typically 250-500 for the board games). Until then the game just sits on the website as a "Future Release". If the interest isn't there it doesn't get done.

Also, alot of these companies have an "autoship" policy (including Avalanche). You as the customer agree to buy every game they make (or every game from a certain line), and as soon as a new one is released it gets shipped to you at a nice discount (auto ship people are automatically considered on the preorder list too).

Some combination of these plans could work well in a RPG environment, especially for a game with a solid following. Perhaps in combination with a PDF release. Preorder the book for $25, pay $10 now, $15 when it ships. It ships when X number of preorders are recieved and the book actually goes to press, in the meantime enjoy this pdf download while you wait.

When it comes to good RPGs (such as TRoS!), I'm like a kid in early December who can't wait for Christmas. I want everything yesterday, and I see PDFs as a way of cutting down on the wait time. I have DSL so the download times and disconnects aren't as bad with me as they would be for someone with dial-up, plus I have access, through work, to some pretty good laser printers, and I can use my own higher than normal weight paper. I am also a big HarnMaster/World enthusiast (which doesn’t does nothing for my small amount of patience), so I’m accustom to having the majority of that material placed in sheet protectors and kept in three-ring binders or on the hard drive of my computer.

Like others have pointed out before me on this post though, this sounds like something that is quite a bit larger than what I’m used to doing. I guarantee that I’d buy it, but it sounds like a daunting task.

BrianL wrote: but for what it's worth I would be prepared to pay in advance of printing for each book at it comes out. That way you know for sure that you'll sell two copies (me and your mother *grin*) and you already have the money against the print cost.

OK, as I said I'm not unrealistic enough to think that that would really help much, but if enough people other than me... etc.

Brian.

Count on me to buy any "core-books" for TRoS, Jake. I fully intend to own, one way or the other, the second printing of the main book (in addition to the first printing copy which I already own) TFoB, SatF, and OBaM (interesting collection of acronyms we have here, neh?). I will buy these books, and if it would help you out, I will pay for them now, if need be. Anything else that comes out, such as Riddle of Gold, adventures, etc. I'm less likely to buy as I've never been a big fan of sourcebooks or adventures, but you could probably count on selling at least a couple of those to me as well anyhow.

Anything I can do to help TRoS be the product I know it can be, just let me know.

Hey Jake,

I will have that Bestiary, no matter what.

I will not buy a PDF. Why not? I'm sitting here behind a 56k dialup, that's why. I think you understand.

I believe (but I am, of course, uncertain) that Beasts & Men will be popular. Perhaps not quite as popular as TFOB will be, but very close. Why do I think this? It is because we have given some stock characters/creatures in the original book -- enough to do adventures and campaigns with -- but have hinted that there are many more to be found in Weyrth.

Lyrax wrote:
I will have that Bestiary, no matter what.

I will not buy a PDF.

I think one of the things which will make or break OBaM will be the stock NPC types, personally. In D&D, the Monstrous Manual is considered to be a vital core-book, because the DMG only has a limited supply of monsters to fight.. But TRoS isn't about fighting monsters. I suppose it could be, but for the most part, every story I've seen has centered around human conflicts. The ability to pull up "soldier" stats really quickly, or "duelist" stats will be a lot more useful than monster-of-the-week sort of play. Of course, monster-of-the-week style play will lead very quickly to new-player-character-of-the-week situations, due to the Badass Factor (BF) of TRoS monsters. Likewise, I think the bit about mounts in combat that Brian is supposed to be working on will find good use, as well. TRoS will, I'm certain, accurately reflect the advantages of having a trained mount in combat, and people will pick up on that, unlike in D&D. (Wherein my paladin was trained to fight from horseback, but was pretty much forced by situation to dismount every time we got into a battle...)

Wolfen wrote: Likewise, I think the bit about mounts in combat that Brian is supposed to be working on will find good use, as well. TRoS will, I'm certain, accurately reflect the advantages of having a trained mount in combat, and people will pick up on that, unlike in D&D. (Wherein my paladin was trained to fight from horseback, but was pretty much forced by situation to dismount every time we got into a battle...)

Sounds awesome. With all of the various discussions on troops and NPCs here, I think that section should be fairly well-rounded, and with your stuff it should be great.

Something else I'd like to see, if there's still time to make changes, is a section on importing your own creations, or creating NPCs quickly for your own game. It wouldn't need to be a very large section, just some guidelines for what should be covered with any new additions. (ie, summoning things, and other special considerations beyond simply stats and abilities)

BrianL wrote:

Lyrax wrote:
I will have that Bestiary, no matter what.

I will not buy a PDF.

Didn't you just contradict yourself? :-) Either you'll have it "no matter what" or you wont because you refuse to buy a PDF. You can't have it both ways :-).

Brian.

I don't like printing books because they take hell of a lot ink (propably will cost more to print than buy a book!) and It doesn't look nice anyway. I live outside USA and I don't have credit card so book is better option.

- Janne -

The last I heard from Jake (and all things can change), he had a quote back from the printer and it looked promising for a print version.

So, no guarantees but some hope on the horizon for we pdf-haters :-)

Brian.

Sounds good.

Jürgen Mayer wrote: As a customer, I haven't bought a pdf yet [...] and I don't know if I'll ever do.

I would prefer a book, but if PDF is the only option. The I would like the option of obtaining it on CD. You could then add in optional extras similar to those on the webpage.

BrianL wrote:

I'm sure it's far too little an amount to be of an use whatsoever, but for what it's worth I would be prepared to pay in advance of printing for each book at it comes out. That way you know for sure that you'll sell two copies (me and your mother *grin*) and you already have the money against the print cost.

I too would pay cover price upfront to you for a signed copy after it printed. I don't know how shipping cost works for you as opposed to the cut in price you'd have to take through typical channels. I suppose you could hit me for a shipping charge. I don't know how many direct sales you'd have to make in order for this approach to cover your print costs.... the side effect of this would be less sales in stores, and thus less eagerness on the part of store owners to carry your product.... but then again, as we start playing in store... and demo'ing.... running gladiator leagues... this would cause more buzzz.... everything has tradeoffs ..... I'm in the print camp...

Before i buy it though, it would be nice to see 5 creatures, and be told how many i would get... etc...

Valamir wrote: That's not a bad idea Brian. ALOT of wargame companies (GMT and Columbia especially) have an extensive preorder plan.
...
Also, alot of these companies have an "autoship" policy (including Avalanche). You as the customer agree to buy every game they make (or every game from a certain line), and as soon as a new one is released it gets shipped to you at a nice discount (auto ship people are automatically considered on the preorder list too).
.....
It ships when X number of preorders are recieved and the book actually goes to press, in the meantime enjoy this pdf download while you wait.

Speaking of the Bestiary...

I need a few volenteers to go through the sucker, see which monsters are way cool, what should be added, and how they all play out.

Jake

Jake Norwood wrote: I need a few volenteers to go through the sucker, see which monsters are way cool, what should be added, and how they all play out.

Jake Norwood wrote: Speaking of the Bestiary...

I need a few volenteers to go through the sucker, see which monsters are way cool, what should be added, and how they all play out.

Jake

Jake Norwood wrote: Speaking of the Bestiary...

I need a few volenteers to go through the sucker, see which monsters are way cool, what should be added, and how they all play out.

Jake

I'll help, if I'm needed. I'd love to go through the beasties.
Besides, it isn't exactly work to test tRoS supplements.

I'd take a look too, I'm often good at spotting errors too, cuz im a slow reader.

I'll look into it also if you want Jake, also, i would hate a .pdf format for any large suppliments, i am running on a cable modem and have over 600megs of ram, and chapter 6 alone makes me groan, the download time and the lag when reading through on a comp screen. i would prefer book form for any and all 100 or more page suppliments. also, when does sorcery and the fey come out? thats the one that intrests me the most, seeing as i like the magic so much.

I don't know if it has been brought up (or, indeed, if it is included in the book), but it would be cool to see stats for baresarks (or berzerkers).

I don't know if it has been brought up (or, indeed, if it is included in the book), but it would be cool to see stats for baresarks (or berzerkers).

It would be easy enough to put a sample Beserker in the warriors/militia section of the NPC chapter of the book, I'll see about that in the next draft. In a system like tRoS I don't see your average beserker lasting too long though.. nasty wounds and no magical healing...

Brian.

BrianL wrote: It would be easy enough to put a sample Beserker in the warriors/militia section of the NPC chapter of the book, I'll see about that in the next draft. In a system like tRoS I don't see your average beserker lasting too long though.. nasty wounds and no magical healing...

Brian.

BrianL wrote: It would be easy enough to put a sample Beserker in the warriors/militia section of the NPC chapter of the book, I'll see about that in the next draft. In a system like tRoS I don't see your average beserker lasting too long though.. nasty wounds and no magical healing...

Brian.

Unsane wrote:

BrianL wrote: It would be easy enough to put a sample Beserker in the warriors/militia section of the NPC chapter of the book, I'll see about that in the next draft. In a system like tRoS I don't see your average beserker lasting too long though.. nasty wounds and no magical healing...

Brian.

Yes, but it would have the potential to really screw someone over. . .I mean think about it. . .no wound penalties.

Brian, are there any plans for werewolves and/or vampires in the Bestiary? They play a rather important role in one of the countries of Myria. I'd like to know if I need to create some for the website or if I can just wait for the Bestiary.

Scotty wrote: Brian, are there any plans for werewolves and/or vampires in the Bestiary? They play a rather important role in one of the countries of Myria. I'd like to know if I need to create some for the website or if I can just wait for the Bestiary.

BrianL wrote: The bestiary has an entry for Loup Garou, which are basically were-creatures as opposed to werewolves. If you mean werewolves-as-characters they probably wont do for your purposes, but as "beasties in the night that might really be your uncle Ed" they'll fit in just fine, I expect.

As for Vampires, hmm.. lets say there are certain unseelie that folk will think are vampires...

BrianL wrote:
I wasn't suggesting no wound penalties. That's silly. But Beserkers had this legend of not bleeding - even from serious cuts - because they could will the blood away from that part of the body. Seems possible that maybe blood loss is delayed for 2-3 combat rounds, and maybe the character gets a Will bonus thus offsetting shock CP penalties, which are generally X-will (pain still applies though) in return for not being able to make defensive moves, I don't know, something like that; I'll have to think about it. Sounds more like a house rule than something for the Bestiary anyway, to tell you the truth.

Brian.

No magical healing? Hah! I could write a spell...

okay, so it's hard to find for the average joe...but *if* you found it...

Jake

Well, ok, I'll give you that one. But I meant that for the normal guy in the street, magical healing is pretty much an impossibility.

Brian.

Yeah, that's true. But since when was I normal...

Jake

Jake, I would never accuse you of being normal, my friend.

Take that as you will ;-)