Hey folks,

Haven’t written here in a while (only just got back to the developed world).  I have this game that I’ve been working on on-and-off for the last couple years.  It is more of a wargame, but I tried to have it based on RPG elements (my inspiration was partially being told that my friends play RPGs like they’re wargames), including that parties stay together for multiple games and gain experience (or die).  Anyway, the question I have today is about the back-story.  I think I went about this differently than most of you would have, in that I started out by choosing elements that I wanted (sort of the general feel I wanted to game to have), and then tried to come up with a story to fit them all.  The elements I wanted to include were:
a) Fantasy, though if possible dark and desperate
b) Players would control small parties, rather than individuals or armies
c) Parties would have a reason for being at war with other parties
d) Parties would break down and die over time (without a way of regenerating themselves)
e) Parties had a reason to keep fighting, and something they could attain (and retire or stop fighting) if they did well enough
f) New parties could join in and play at any time
g) Players are fairly open in what kind of characters they can create

After lots of thought, what I came up with was that the setting for the game takes place on a former prison island (one housing everything from criminals to cult leaders to political opposition).  Prisoners were kept in stasis fields when not needed, and brought out to do hard work, to be tortured for information, to be the guinea pigs for new magic, etc.  Then, one day, the supply ships stopped coming to the island.  When the prisoners caught wind of this, there was an uprising, and the guards were exterminated.  However, after the revolution, the former-prisoners realized that the island could not permanently sustain life, and that there was no obvious way to escape the island (at least not en-mass).  Because of this, any hope of a sustained peace shattered, and the prisoners began forming roving gangs, scouting the island for any resources they could find (either for escape, or to survive), and battling off enemy gangs.  Players joining in part-way are considered to have just awoken from stasis. 

So, what do you think?  I think it makes all of the elements fit reasonably well, but for some reason I’ve always had a slightly weird feeling about it (maybe it’s that I had hoped to downplay non-war elements more, though I can’t think of what else to do).  Is there something I should consider that might work better?

My other question (which might be more the weird feeling), does the story seem internally consistent and realistic?  Where are the flaws?  What would make a world like this fall apart?  What doesn't make sense?  Is there anything that makes it difficult to suspend disbelief? 

Simon

Okay, no one has responded in a week, maybe I need to phrase this in another way:

Here were my original Big 3:
1) What is my game about?
Escape from Illeria is a fantasy strategy game.  I have tried to input elements of classical RPGs into it, and is based around party-to-party combat (somewhat growing out of the natural conclusion of combat-heavy RPGs).  I tried to design it in a way that requires more strategy than your common wargame.  I have also tried to input several darker themes into it.

2) What do the characters do?
They battle other parties, trying to survive.  As they fight more battles, they gain experience and knowledge to acquire new skills.  However, they also start to generate injuries (which over time will more than overcome any benefits).

3) What do the players do?
Each player controls a party.  They play games against other players, in which they control their party through battle, and decide when (or if) to retreat.  Between games, they do bookkeeping, and determine the effect that each game will have on the health and power of their party. 

Ok, so basically these were what I wanted out of my game.  To create a background that allows these things to happen, I generated the story in my previous entry.  A lot of the time I like it, but every now and then, I guess it just doesn’t sit right, and I’m trying to figure out why.  Does it seem like it reasonably fits with what I’m trying to create?  Is a former prison-island really the best setting for something like this?  (and what is the uncertain feeling I keep having?)

Also, I’ve wondered sometimes, is this the kind of game I should be posting to this forum?  Are there better forums to post to?

Simon

Actually, I like the idea, it seems to be something new and different from "some evil dark lord is threatening the world and you must stop him".  As far as I can see, the story seems fairly consistent.  However, it doesn't look like it's actually about war.  Just from reading the story, it sounds like each group would have one of two objectives, (1) try and build a ship with which to escape the island (including required foodstuffs to eat during the voyage), or (2) settle down in a defensive position and find a way to sustain themselves (i.e. farming etc.).  It seems like it's more about survival, so every character's goal is to go on living.  This could lead to things like capturing a half-built ship that another group was working on, or raiding food stores, so there would be a great deal of conflict, but it's not about fighting, it's about living.

Your answer to "What is my game about?" also seems somewhat vague.  It refers more to the mechanics rather than the theme.  Based on what you've written, I'd say your game is about "Survival in an inhospitable world".  Forget the mechanics, forgot HOW it plays, the question is, what is the game ABOUT?  Is it about good triumphing over evil, or the futility of life, or the dangers that come with power?  You sort of see what I mean?  Saying it's a fantasy strategy game tells you nothing of what it is about, only what the setting is and how it's played.

Also, while there are other forums where you could go for help, this seems like as good a place to start as any.  I'm a newcomer myself, and I've already gotten a lot of help.  I'm surprised no one else has answered you yet.

Egonblaidd, definitely thanks for the response.  This has given me a good start of something to think about it. 

Egonblaidd wrote:
However, it doesn't look like it's actually about war.

Egonblaidd wrote:
it sounds like each group would have one of two objectives, (1) try and build a ship with which to escape the island (including required foodstuffs to eat during the voyage), or (2) settle down in a defensive position and find a way to sustain themselves (i.e. farming etc.). 

Egonblaidd wrote:
Your answer to "What is my game about?" also seems somewhat vague.  It refers more to the mechanics rather than the theme.  Based on what you've written, I'd say your game is about "Survival in an inhospitable world".  Forget the mechanics, forgot HOW it plays, the question is, what is the game ABOUT?  Is it about good triumphing over evil, or the futility of life, or the dangers that come with power?  You sort of see what I mean?  Saying it's a fantasy strategy game tells you nothing of what it is about, only what the setting is and how it's played.

I did have a similar problem.  Originally I was designing a "fun fantasy RPG" (actually, I think what intrigued me was figuring out how to mathematically and logically represent life in a fantasy world, with a heavy emphasis on adventuring), but after getting some feedback and reading a lot of info I found that as such my game would never be more than average.  There are bad mechanics and there are good mechanics, there are uninteresting worlds and there are rich worlds, and all the things that make up an RPG already exist in some form; you can't hope to outdo everyone else, especially as a single amateur author.  People will compare your mechanics to that of D&D, and aspects of your world to the Forgotten Realms or Middle Earth, and you just can't compete.  So don't compete.  You can make your game stand out by giving it a different theme entirely.  Players may not like your mechanics, they may not like your world as much as some others, but if you can make them like the theme then they will still play your game.  If a player goes into your game thinking, "How can I kill things and take their loot?" then either he will be frustrated when he dies because he was focusing on the wrong aspect of the game or he will succeed and never understand what the game is really about.  Worse, if you don't understand what the game is about then you may redesign it during playtesting to make it more conducive to "killing things and taking their loot" when you haven't designed the game as such.  If you know what you want the theme of your game to be, then you can design all the other aspects of your game to reinforce or at least not hinder that theme.  Come to think of it, I'll bet these principles also apply to any kind of game, be they pen and paper RPGs, videogames, or boardgames.

A prison island sounds like a good setting for that theme, I think.  Obviously there are different settings you could do, and those would accent different aspects of your theme, but I think the prison island setting definitely works for what you're doing.  And with escape as the only option it will make a lot of sense to raid your neighbors in order to add their resources to your own in order to finish constructing your own escape vehicle (whatever it is) sooner.  One question, and one that shouldn't be too hard to find an answer for, is, why don't the prisoners work together to make their escape more quickly?  There could be a number of reasons for this, but you need to come up with one that fits the setting and incorporate it in.

I like the concept. My first thought was something similar to a fallout type setting where players must scavenge and fight for even the most basic resources. I'm not sure if you're leaning more towards fantasy or sci fi from your description so let me throw out two quick scenarios:

Fantasy) The prison island holds all sorts of different races such as orcs, dwarves, elves, etc. Furthermore these are the worst sort, a combination of ability and criminal intent. All of the races hate each other and stick to their own kind. Any stragglers found from other races are killed on principle. "The only good elf is a dead elf." Each of the races has their own method of trying to get off the island are also have near monopoly on certain goods. Dwarves have taken all of the valuable metal, the elves protect the one small forest, the humans have found the one decent fishing spot, etc. To escape the dwarves want to burrow to their mountain homes, the elves want to cast a spell to summon an ancient fish to carry them off, the humans want to build a boat, etc. In order to escape, each race is going to need what the other races have.

Sci Fi) The prisoners are on a nearly un-inhabitable planet. The atmosphere has barely enough oxygen to sustain life, the soil is too acidic for anything to grow, and the constant dust storms kill machinery quickly. Vital equipment was stored in different areas on the planet and now that the guards are dead, the first to collect some of each will be able to leave. Robots are in an air-tight bunker used for heavy labor and possible protection. Oxygen masks are in the old warden's office and are required for anything besides light physical exertion. Parts to construct a cryo-chamber for the decade long trip to the closest system are in a small observation post. Again there is only enough to get one group away safely. Food will run out and cannot be replenished. Conflict is inevitable.

Egonblaidd wrote:
you can't hope to outdo everyone else, especially as a single amateur author.  People will compare your mechanics to that of D&D, and aspects of your world to the Forgotten Realms or Middle Earth, and you just can't compete.  So don't compete.  

Not to hijack the thread or anything, but I suppose what I said did sound a bit defeatist.  BUT there's no reason you can't have innovative and effective mechanics and an interesting world at the same time as a great theme.  In any case, you can greatly improve the quality of your work by focusing it somehow.  Also, I think trying to outdo the giants of the field is a mentality that will lead to failure, you will be much more likely to succeed if you try and do your own thing instead of trying to do someone else's thing better.  People do get a lot of great ideas.  I get them all the time myself.  But a single idea is nothing, you can't write a book or make a game or a movie using only one idea.  You have to build the entire structure of your book or game or movie around that idea.  You might have an idea about some hero with a big sword that can control time, but that is the only detail you actually have.  If you start trying to construct a story based on that idea alone, you start running into problems.  What do people build their houses out of?  What kind of technology do they have?  What do their ships look like?  In fact, what does your hero actually DO?  The base idea is insufficient for a story, and serves only as an inspiration or guideline for the rest of the details.  To most questions the hero idea is irrelevant, and so while such a hero may be cool it isn't really a good idea to base a story off of.  Heroes with big swords have been done before, as has time control.  Better to come up with another idea that can serve a better guideline and then incorporate your hero into the story built around that other idea.  Basically the only way to really stand out as a good author is to do something different (though there is more to it than that), even if all you're doing is putting the same old ideas together in a different way.  For example, you could take Middle Earth and replace the humans with Narnia style talking animals, change the names and everything to avoid copyright issues, and you might be hailed as the greatest fantasy author of all time (it's doubtful, though).  In practice it will be much more complicated than this, but I've heard it said that there are no new ideas, so anything that seems "new" is probably just a unique combination of different ideas that have already been thought of by others.  All this to say, I suppose, that it is better if the game is centered around this uniqueness (be it through a theme or whatever) instead of the uniqueness being in the details (elves have GREEN BLOOD, because, um, it's foresty, and has nothing to do with Vulcans from Star Trek, which are kind of like space elves).

I apologize for the thread hijack.

Hey, good advice so far. 

In terms of why the prisoner’s don’t work together, well, my main reason was just that there aren’t enough resources for everyone to escape (or even the appearance that there might not be enough).  A situation like that would necessitate fighting, right?  (unless it’s a society of pacifists who draw straws to decide who survives and gets away). 

Vulpinoid wrote:
I agree that Simon seems to have a good concept that needs some refinement, a theme is just one way to do it.
V

The reason I say that Theme isn't the only way to refine a concept is because the definition of theme can be tricky.

You can take the Forge definition...

Theme

    The point, message, or key emotional conclusion perceived by an audience member, about a fictional series of events. The presence of a theme is the defining feature of Story as opposed to Transcript. See Narrativism: Story Now.

Simons, your idea reminds me of necromunda, only with a more magical twist. That is a very silly game in many ways, (surreal experience system) but me and my friends have had a lot of fun for years off and on, plugging proper roleplaying around it's structure, with family relationships or personality conflicts driving customised confrontations etc.

As your setting is magic, have you considered linking the conflict to the concept of escape itself? Say that every person has a sentence time, and a period of allotted years, but by joining magically into a group, they can pool their "time served" and increase their chances of leaving. Now there should be some reason either magical or human that groups don't grow above the size of 8, but it should probably not be a strict limit for flexibility reasons. The next trick is that the same magical discovery that allows people to do this allows people to grab each-others served sentence time via killing people off. (Death Note meets "hunter" game modes meets Commorragh!) So by fighting each other in groups, they are hoping to get closer to escape!

Actually, putting this, and two discussions I had with friends together, I think I might have come up with an idea for a better storyline.  I'm not sure if I'm going to abandon the prison island idea, but I'm at least going to work through this new one first.

Thanks to everyone for your input.

Simon